Community Preservation Committee February 10, 2026

quite a lot.

Okay, we have a quorum, so we should get started.

And we have a lot to talk about tonight.

Um, was that how's it going?

Hello, neighbor.

All right.

Is that my battle?

First things first, I want to remind folks that uh our meeting is being recorded. Uh these microphones are live so please mind the side conversations because they will be part of the public record. Um and let's see I'd like to welcome I believe a new our new rep from parks and recreation. Is that correct? Would you like to introduce yourself?

My name is Joan Verto and I'm uh representing the new uh parks and recreation.

Welcome. Thank you.

Um, let's do a round of introductions uh for Jim. Sure.

Starting with, uh, I'm Mike Matos. I'm representing the housing authority.

Nice.

John Souza. Joanie is very familiar with me.

Lifelong friends.

Excellent. Excellent.

Jim Conland. I'm John is too. I think an atlarge appointee. Yeah, we don't I don't know why we're here. [snorts] Susan Murray. Am I at large? I thought I was at large, too.

Yes, you are.

Yeah.

My sweet planning board.

Uh Buddy Baker Smith, the the chair and um I'm an at large member.

Joan and I know each other.

My she doesn't know you in this capacity. How different it is, isn't it?

CPC.

Nice to meet you all.

Well, welcome. Um, thank you.

We uh, you know, I think um, uh, at our next committee meeting, I'll bring a draft of uh, a letter of appreciation for Joe and his years on the CPC as the parks and board, you know, parks and rec representative. Um, but you're most most welcome and I don't know if clearly Joe sold sold the rep job that you you rushed into it. So, so I'm going to uh do the best I can.

All right. I know you will. Thank you.

Um and you um this this is jumping in the deep end of the pool with us. Um because we have probably this is our proposal review night. So um join in as much as you feel comfortable. Um, and it's probably I would say, John, we probably have to go back a number of years to a time when we had so many proposals. How we've ever gotten this money and what?

Yeah, I remember. I remember one. I thought maybe you were on the on the committee then, but perhaps not.

Sure. I But it's been a long time since we It's been a long time, but that's great. [clears throat] Um, and I'd be happy to I'll we'll get your I'll get your contact info and reach out to you. Um, there's some background stuff I can give you about the committee and any questions you have and stuff like that.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

Um, the other thing I just said wait announcement I have um, uh, for tonight's meeting since we do have a fair amount of stuff to talk about. I have um some fudge from from Bies.

Um which one?

Where were you?

Well, I was in Houston this past weekend and I didn't make it to the BIES, but my daughter-in-law did and um gave us some of the Bies. So, this is a sampling of BIES Fudge. And if you're not familiar with Bies, it is quite the store institution. Um it's It's the idea of a Cumberland farms except you have to multiply about by about 50. They're they they average about a hundred gas pumps at any any given

bies and then an enormous enormous bigger than Home Depot and Lowe's, you know, like how many thousand? It's But you you'll find them along the freeways in Texas.

Is it a truck stop?

It's it's an everything stop. because it's a big tourist attraction. I I went one time with a group of guys in I think I was in Kentucky and oh we got to go to I didn't know what it was. Bies. Okay, I'll go in there. It's like it's a store massive store and it's Yeah. Over 100 gas pumps that just goes on and the people walking around just buying garbage, you know.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Just buying stuff junk and you know a lot of touristy stuff. ton of food and prep. It's It's I'm glad I went, but it's a destination.

I wouldn't go out of my way to one. It's just um but the the fudge got a lot of chatter at the TSA line amongst the security folks. So, help yourself um to some fudge and and um pass it around um during the meeting. All right. Great. Um, so we um received the minutes from Michelle uh via email.

Um, so I'd like to entertain a motion to accept the minutes of our January 13th uh meeting.

Motion to approve as uh printed.

Is there a second?

Okay. Um, additions, corrections? I have a few corrections. Uh, but Eddie, I want to check anybody else. It's okay. Um, all right. So, a couple of corrections I believe. Let me throw these out here. I on page three.

Um, our and this would be a hard one to catch in the minutes, but I think it would be helpful. Um in our agenda we had the discussion of the eligibility application on the agricultural preservation fund and then the very next item was our uh discussion with representatives from the a commission.

So I believe where that kicked in in page three is right where before the members where it says members from the agricultural community also describe current challenges. That's when our conversation really shifted to just in general. Okay. What's going on with agriculture in the town of Dartmouth?

What are their challenges? So, I think maybe if you just put um a heading [clears throat] a heading there, discussion with agricultural commission reps and then probably it would be helpful to repeat those who are in attendance that you have up here.

Oh, okay.

Um and just repeat them uh their names.

Okay.

on um page four.

[clears throat] And this is only because I drive up and down Dartmouth Street all the time.

Uh the little um coffee shop commercial. The coffee shop is Bougie. B O U J I E. But I kind of like the Boogie Bean better, but that's not their name. Um so they should just change that to to JIE.

Um, and then on page six, um, Mark, I believe he spells his name M A RC.

And then the final thing is our next meeting is, uh, February 10th, ahead of March.

Yeah. Yeah. Putting I was ahead.

That's not bad being ahead.

Anyway, great. So, if I have a motion to accept the minutes with those corrections.

So, moved.

All right. Uh, all in favor?

I I We have a second on that motion.

Oh, Mike. All right. All in favor?

I I uh opposed. And one abstension. Thank you.

[cough and clears throat] Okay. Do we have the invoices?

Have an invoice.

Invoice [clears throat] for $2,500.

This is related to the cultural center project. Uh this represents uh design um design services and development of construction documents.

when we pass that along. Take a look.

Um, and Mike, if you uh would be okay doing the motion. Okay.

After Jones had a chance to look at it.

[clears throat] And if folks haven't seen yet, um we have the town the uh the town's um manual for boards and committees, I believe. Is that what it is?

Yes.

Um we are to if you haven't received one, you should get one. And I think Michelle's been trying to make sure people have that and then sign the form that you received it and return it to Michelle. So I don't know if anybody tonight has because I know Michelle's been passing them out. Okay. So we're all set there. Excellent. And we also confirmed that um Michelle had looked into um those of us have been receiving

an or received an email from uh about um doing the ethics conflict of interest training. Um you have to do that every two years. And so apparently that was generated from the ethics commission, not from the town. So if you got one like me, it meant you were it was your kind of time to re-up on the training. If and so if you didn't get one um it wasn't your

time and you may get one next year.

Okay.

Okay. A big part of our agenda here is to discuss the proposals that we've received for the June round. Um and just um a couple of things I want to be clear as we talk about them. Um one is I won't I won't be recognizing anybody from the um audience here because I don't want us to morph into a a discussion of proposals with the sponsor. So, we'll just do our conversation and um and

[snorts] our task today is to come up with questions um or additional information that we would like to have regarding these proposals. I'll turn those into um letters that will go out to the sponsors inviting them to our March meeting which will be a public hearing in which they can um make a short presentation um and um having provided any answers to their questions or any additional information that we um had

desired. Um, [clears throat] so that's kind of our main task is just go through each of these proposals, nail down those questions and additional information needed. Um, and then the one other thing I want to mention is um Susan is on the agricultural commission. Um and I and uh she had reached out to me just about all right in terms of conflict of interest uh since the agricultural commission

would be the recipient of capitalizing this fund should she you know participate or not in the conversation.

My my advice was not to participate in the conversation [clears throat] uh or voting. Um, and I think that just keeps it the cleanest cleanest thing. Um, and so when we come to that part of our agenda, um, I think again just to make it crystal clear, it's an open meeting. So I think you would just join the audience for that period of time. Um and then when we complete the conversation

um come back uh up here and we'll continue our meeting and stuff. So does that sound sound pretty good in terms of understanding that? It was interesting in reading the conflict of interest or doing the training they had an interesting um note on this. So if like say Michael just for our own edification so Michael being the housing authority representative to the CPC if there was a housing

authority proposal in front of us Michael could participate because he is by design of the comm of this committee. he um is assigned to this committee for that role. And so, you know, it's kind of like if you were a union rep on some uh board um and there were union issues in front, you could still be part of those conversations and stuff because you were supposed to be on that. But, um in this

case, the agricultural commission is not have a um an official rep role on our committee. So that's why we're doing this a little bit differently. But for for other folks um like the like parks and wreck um you don't have that conflict of interest issue if there are parks and w proposals in front of us and stuff.

Buddy, the state ethics uh because I've u seen this come up before. State ethics recommend anytime you have a perceived conflict of interest and you're sitting on a board, they ask that you they remove yourself from the table.

Yes. Um and they and they go as further to saying you should leave the room, but if you choose, there's nothing preventing you from sitting in the audience and speaking. That is not against the law. They just recommend interesting. Yeah.

That you leave the room. What if you choose that it's important to you and you want to comment, you're not breaking any laws by staying in the room and commenting what they say do not stay at the table. Just move yourself.

Yeah. Thank you. [clears throat] Are you all set?

Yep. Do you want me to make a motion on the And we'll go back to the invoice real quick. Um, I'd like to make a motion um to pay $2,500 to the Dartmouth Cultural Center for their invoice from studio just to substain for um services related to the rehabilitation and renovation of the Dartmouth Cultural Center.

Second.

Okay. Any questions or further discussion? All in favor?

I. Any opposed? No. That's unanimous.

Okay.

[clears throat] Um just in no particular order uh except I'm going to leave the um agricultural preservation fund for last of the proposals we talked about. Sure.

Um [clears throat] the DCTV renovations.

So this is a proposal um to now actually do the work um based on the um assessment and then um work up of um did documents and estimated um that this work will cost let's see approximately ly $511,394 and the request is $461,394 um in CPA funds.

So, um are there questions or information um that we would like questions to be answered or information we would like to receive additional information you would like to receive regarding this proposal?

Buddy, just a general overall question.

I'm curious if has anybody or have you done the math? We've got a number of applications here that if we award every application, do we have the funds to do that? Um or what does how much funds would we have left if by chance we award every application? Have you I haven't done the math on you.

I think I did.

Did I write it down? I don't think so.

Um, it's a little more than $4 million, I believe, if you did if you added all of these up. Um and the projection going into um July 1st is we would have around 4.7 million in reserves um and an additional 1 million approximately additional 1 million um in revenue in fiscal 27. So our estimates are about five. So total money available would be about $5.7 million.

And what I want to do is I think that's important for the board to understand.

Yes. And at our meeting in March, we'll have our agenda item will be to go over in detail the the fiscal 27 projections before we take any votes on anything.

But that's that's great. Y [clears throat]

some questions or additional information?

No, I guess they've been um before the historic because we have a recommendation I guess from the historical commission and I'm going to tell everybody here [clears throat] which I hate to but I am. I used to go into that building when it was the town hall. I used to go in there for the assessors all the time and talk to Donald K.

Anybody else? No, I remember it was Donald.

John said [clears throat] he went to dance.

I don't remember Donald I can't remember going I know I've been in the building and I don't remember going in as the town hall. I certainly remember Donald K the other town hall when I was with the police but I don't recall going into I remember that building that was it was after our time before our time.

Um I think it's an important building. I think that it is leaking it and you know needs a lot of work.

Um, buddy, I think a question we need to not only ask these folks and everyone, what happens if um CPA doesn't fund the project or partially funds the project?

What does it do to the uh to the project?

question.

This one's pretty clear, I think, what would happen. But anyway, I think it's important we ask everybody that question.

Yeah, a good question.

Correlary question. Um, what what other sources of funding might be available?

and for the requests that are coming from um from enterprise funds. What um what's the average year year- round balance of the enterprise fund?

Um, one thing I want to make sure is that you know that these estimates um are they based on the state prevailing wage rates? um just to be sure because I believe as a public project they're going to have to pay those those rates.

So buddy, what's always weighed with me in looking at this is how much how much skin in the game do does an applicant put in on this instance they're putting in u 50,000 from other I'm I'm assuming it's um from themselves that's only 10% um so I would ask why is there the wrong term but why is there so little skin in the game, you know, uh can they come up with some additional funding on their

own

and and you're you're saying the town or DCTV more DCTV, which is the town, but DCT's got a budget and uh so yeah, but you know, sometimes things got to hurt a little bit, you know, um to to to get some funding or go out and look for some you know other grants you know that's why we ask for you know are there any sources sometime it's not possible I'm not

saying we that's the committee has been steadfast and said oh we're not going to contribute but um it's something I want to know what you know how much skin can you really put in the game you know I do I do feel like we we kind of had a discussion about like a landlord versus like what a landlord would do versus what a tenant would do if we think about

this as like a a landlord as they as they occupy that building.

Yeah. [clears throat] Okay.

Do they have a lease on that building?

No, I don't think so.

Do they have a lease on this building, buddy?

That's a good question.

All right. I'm going to write that down.

The question just to kind of confirm because I didn't see that anywhere on here.

How?

Well, the cultural center, for instance, has a lease. They they lease it from the town because they're not they're not a town board, right?

So, I don't know if DCTV is just a tenant at will or or are they are they a constituted town board?

I don't know.

We'll find out because I'm going to ask that question.

Yeah.

So, one of the question I have was it goes back to the historic um 1894. Is this on the Is this on the register at all? It is.

I believe it is.

How does that impact the renovations that they're proposed? Do they have to get approvals from, you know, uh whether it be the park service, whether it be mass historical, you know, just timewise and if that's all been factored in. I'm just trying to figure, you know, understand that how that fits in.

Yeah. So, typically what we would do, and I was going to mention, I think that just dubtales with what you're saying, is we um will require that the plans um are signed off or approved by the Dartmouth Historical Commission.

So, they've already been before them uh I think to date, but that that continues. they, you know, any changes they make to the plans and things.

Um, and they they have to [clears throat] because the historical commission is probably the the best vers organization in the town since they have to meet the department of interior standards.

Um, and I had related to that a couple of questions which was, you know, there's a letter from the historical commission. Um, and that mentions a couple of things. And I wanted to just confirm, are they adopting um, have they incorporated the items that the historical commission had bulleted?

Um, standards of restoration, you know, um, on so-called historical um restorations like this. There are sometimes requirements that um these no hardy board sighting and Yes, exactly.

Uh um aluminum sighting.

Yeah. In the cost estimate um they um outline a couple of um potential deductions.

Um if you look at the cost estimate where is it? Um where did I see it there? One was the red versus white uh cedar right shingles.

There is a a a dedduct there. Uh how can I find it?

Let's see.

Somewhere in here.

Yeah, I see.

It's right after the plans.

Where is it?

It's right after the plans. It's like a onepage uh letter right after the plans.

Oh, okay. The plan.

Cool.

from the architect cost estimates.

Thank you. All over the place. Yeah. So, they have this uh um alternate um would be to go with white cedar.

Um remove the roof the roof overhang scope full trim replacement.

Um, so a couple of those those three the the two this the shingle question and the overhang I think my question is how what does the historical commission say about those as alternatives or alternates um because that's again this is kind of gets back to they really need to um well and the other quick thing I noticed too is on the I think it's page six of the application the project start

date says July 1st of this year. So again going back to the timeline uh in the you know because our funds wouldn't be available at that time.

Right. So so we would want a revised is that section four that uh has the section four. Yeah.

Okay. So we would like a revised section four noting um the earliest funds would be available would be August 1st.

So in the application buddy they put the 50,000 is coming from DCTV's retained earnings.

Okay. Um, so I'd be curious to know how much is in that fund.

Yes.

What's it been used for in the past? Um, yeah. So I think we'll get that's probably their enterprise fund. Is that correct? Is that the right way?

Yeah. I I don't know if that's retained earning means within their enterprise fund there's a Yeah, there's another account. I don't know.

what the only the only reference I've ever heard in town finances about to retained earnings was in enterprise fund was the term for the enterprise fund um I'll confirm that just looking at the the date the July is bid submitts and then construction they have starting in August but I guess that's still too quick of a Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know how how to ask it. Um but July one community TV station is is essentially the creature of the cable uh the the town's cable provider which um the and the town has uh in its wisdom given Comcast a very nice monopoly.

Um, and I mean I I if every household in town is paying what I am for my Comcast bill, you know, it's it's considerably north of $10 million a year.

Has to be.

And um, so we we did discuss this at the right the last one, but I can't remember where it went that was brought up like was there any funds from Comcast that they could leverage?

Yeah. or but I can't remember where that I don't either. Let's ask it again. I don't Right. It did come up and I don't know if it was like with it.

Had a situation in Tata where same thing TKM there used Comcast money for renovations of their space.

Mhm.

Oh, isn't that nice?

Yeah.

Yeah. But I we did get an answer to it.

There was a reason why.

Okay. But let's ask it again.

Yeah.

I say let's go to Stalin.

Maybe it's how you asked it.

We got a precedent now. If you know about your Yeah, you don't know. I don't know how it works, honestly.

You know what we could do?

Yeah. [snorts] You know, those funds are drying up.

I've heard too.

There was a committee that tried to find out about other sources.

And if I went to that meeting, there were like four people that showed up that night to that meeting and it was, I guess, too expensive to change.

You know, it was a lot of money.

I did have a question on on the composite material. It sounds like the store commission was okay about that, but I just wanted to check in. Um, and I looked I did looked that up and actually there's a the Department of Interior has a brief on um using alternative materials in restoration preservation. Call it preservation brief 16 which actually is goes into a lot of it's pretty clear but

a lot of detail about materials that are acceptable substitutes um things to consider when deciding that a substitute is appropriate. So composite is uh materials for exterior trim is uh is cons could be a cons an appropriate substitute um but if if warranted but generally the idea is you you use the similar materials. So if it's a wood frame structure you would generally use wood frames. So I I think

my question is what what what's the what was the argument for going with composite particular for this building? So in uh I think I mean the the letter from the historical commission mentions that use eastern cedar shingles and composite trim replacement.

Yes. So they seem to be okay with that.

But I just wanted to Yeah.

just check and see because there seems to be, you know, that in the interior standards in their brief it was um you you need you need to have a good reason to use alternative and they mentioned composite is in places where there's particular uh exposure to deterioration and things like that. So, there may be an argument, but I think we just need to hear what it is.

Um, should that come up at a later date when people wonder why there's composite on that historic building.

Um, and I imagine we will um be requiring a historic preservation restriction. Um, so we probably should let them just know that. Um, because as as it is, just being on the registry doesn't protect a building.

It's a restriction is what then protects a building from alterations that um affect the historic character of the of the building.

Dean restriction, right?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And typically it's either Mass Historic Commission or a place like Whale or somebody like that that holds the restriction.

But I think we could let [snorts] them know you like we've done in other places. Um we typically if there isn't one, we put one on as a way of kind of protecting the public investment in in um the historic work, preservation work that's being done.

make sense.

Um, and I think this came up before, but it was premature.

Um, I think it would be good to get um, have them present the annual maintenance budget and source of funding to maintain the property. I think that was one of the questions we had at an earlier phase is how did it get to be in such a condition that now such work is needed. Um I think we had foreshadowed that when it got down to actually doing the work we would want to know that what

that maintenance budget was to indicate that they actually could keep this keep this up.

[clears throat and cough] They they do answer that question and because that's one of the questions we we asked Buddy.

Yeah.

And they say ongoing maintenance. So the B will continue to be funded through DCTV enterprise funding operating budget.

Larger capital expenses will will use DCTV's retained earnings or CIP request through the town of Dartmouth. Um so maybe we just get the annual budget.

They're funding it through Dartmouth with Community TV, but as you know that last part, one of the issues I had is nobody had their eyes on it. You know, the the the pictures we saw deterioration didn't happen overnight.

So, you know, if they're doing annual maintenance, why wasn't that picked up five years previous that you had, you know, rot here or that you had It was pretty bad. Uh it it didn't happen overnight.

So um this doesn't answer uh who and when are you know when do inspections take place. I think we need some more details on how they're going to keep an eye on this building.

I think it probably be helpful to see see this see the numerical answer to this. You know is it a m is it a annual maintenance budget of 500 bucks? you know, then you'd know that was trouble. Um, okay.

Got a good got an ignorant question. Um, I mean, John accurately points out that, you know, um, in this case, there were problems that apparently had been let go for a long time.

Yeah. And um is there any central town I hope to use the word authority um entity that um looks across all town facilities and um keeps an eye on everybody's maintenance practices so that um if you know if if some department has u gets timid in its budgeting and cuts out um cuts out building maintenance that they'll be pulled up short and and in the in the budget process or the management process be be

uh encouraged to maintain their building. Mhm.

I mean, is there a a centralized supervision of I don't know building maintenance.

John, do you was when u Tim Lancaster was taking on that role?

Yeah, he did um as a facilities manager. I think the town may be um going to be asking for a separate position this year for a facilities manager.

But a facilities manager is see managing projects like this, facilitating a project like this. Um will the facility manager be going out and doing annual or six months inspections around these build facilities? That's what we need, you know, we need eyes on the ground that is paying attention to it. U not just, oh well, I'm the facilitator when, you know, a project comes up and, you

know, we need we need expertise and we need site, you know, management, oversight, construction management.

No, I I want eyes on the ground that before we get there that somebody's putting paint on that piece of wood that's been peeling for the last six years. You know, we're not getting that.

Who do you call? John, who who would you call if you had one of these buildings like this used to DCTV and you had the roof leak?

So, who do you call?

I think Well, they they call the town because they don't own Well, they call the town, but who the But I think I can I can kind of help with that. I think as Jud said earlier, Tim Lancaster was right was managing, but he was more um if there was a problem that needed to be fixed, somebody would call. There was nobody facility. I believe that that's something that's coming in the works. As

John said stated that the select board are looking at a facilities manager. I don't I don't think that they've kind of establish what that role will be. if you know as I agree there should be boots on the ground and should be someone looking at the buildings but I don't think that that that's come into play yet I think there it's like a work in progress well it shouldn't wait too long it's not about that

the facilities man like you said is going to get the call hey we got this problem we got a leak in here no I want somebody before leak you get water you notice hey we've got some bad shingles before the wood rots somebody saying, "Hey, you know, we should repaint this building because it's peeling." And the next step, if we let that go, that's not happening. And I don't know if a facilities manager is

it's going to be in his job description to go out and look for something before comes a problem. Um, well, I think ask, you know, a maintenance budget, we can also ask about the oversight. And I think that will open up the question then of like yeah pay somebody to go out and do an annual inspection.

We do capital needs assessments in our properties. I mean that's kind of how we do it you know.

Yeah. Say it again Mike.

We do capital needs assessments. So you know you do a a 20 you know 10 or 20 year capital needs assessment of a property and then you know okay this needs to be replaced in year five. The mechanicals of this age they're going to need to replace in this year or whatever. So you kind of can plan for those things. But that's in a you know in a sort of a more controlled

environment here in a town. I mean it's definitely not opera review but it's something the town should look at and how they going to manage that whether it's through this capital uh planning committee that they have or whatever or whether it's you know to this facilities manager position but somebody needs to take the lead in that I feel like you know whether it's up to the individual

committees that then say okay we did an assessment here you go and give it to that person who's going to quit I don't know what the best way facilities management and maintenance is two separate really right issues. Now, you could have facilities manager that has a maintenance on to it that you know the facilities manager is in in charge of a maintenance group, but we're seeing a problem maintain. Nobody's

maintaining it. No one's got their eyes on it gets identified after it's a problem. Y so some of that I think the opening to those questions in this particular proposal is is around this building. So how is that going to happen in this building?

That's an opening. It be it'd be useful to have some guidance or from the um uh select board office as to what uh what function they expect this new facilities manager to to that may may come up when we explore.

Well, this was probably put together by Cody and I don't know who's he's Peter probably put this to this particular proposal.

I think it was Peter or you because Peter doesn't own the build the building.

Right. Right.

So, it had to come from the from the town side. But anyway, well, couldn't we couldn't if we if we give money to to an organization that uh they have a building from the town, uh couldn't we make it their responsibility to say every two years have an inspection of the building that they pay for and send the report to, I don't know, the facilitator, you know, what every two years or three

years they have to have an inspection of the building. I think for for our position um in in supporting a recommendation to the town meeting who's going to make a decision, it's it really is doing the due diligence about okay, if the public if the town's going to make this investment in this building that we have we have scratched the surface a little bit to have some assurance that the investment is not

going to be just, you know, money down the drain. And you know, and part of that in in making an investment like this is looking at, okay, they have the capacity to maintain this building, which is more than just the dollars, but it's also do you have do you have a system in place?

We get to ask the question.

Yes, we get to ask those questions and we get the answers.

Um, we can't monitor that going forward, but it's part of the due diligence. we go to town meeting and say, "Yeah, you know, it's it's it's a good project and it's a viable thing to to put, you know, almost half a million dollars into this building because they do they have presented a way they're going to maintain the building kind of thing."

Anything further on this proposal before we move?

I'm just looking back in my notes and I thought I took better notes, but I did.

I do have some. It says that DCTV puts in 8,000 a year in maintenance and that they've put in and again these are just notes so [clears throat] um but they've spent 500,000 on the building since 2010 and we know most of that I think it's gone inside 15 years.

Yeah. Um but I I just like to you know I think they are an incredible piece of this town documenting it. Um, and I know we've talked about the importance of the building historically, but DCTV as an organization, I think is incredibly important. You know, it's, you know, as we saw the support letter from Dartmouth High School, you know, they're kind of there to you know, yeah, I just want to note that

the importance of the the organization.

All right. Okay. Let's move on to Crapo Field Lighting Rehabilitation.

This is um submitted by DYAA.

Uh request $230,000 and this is to um uh replace the lighting infrastructure. So um at Crapo Field um one it's very old to u the new technology using LED um it will be a lot more uh uh energy efficient um and I think also probably better illumination is my guess if it's anything like the difference between my battery flashlight and the LED Ashley, which I bet it is.

I bet it is true.

We'll be right.

So, uh questions, information that we would like uh on this [cough and clears throat] what do they project for the change in operating cost from the efficiencies? You mean on the lighting efficiencies?

I mean, if they're replacing may have some estimate of that in here.

I think of that lighting uh proposal here by C C2S Energy.

Um it might be in here.

Uh Jim, let's see.

I think annual savings

of about $5,400 a year, I think.

Yeah.

I had some questions just about um who's who. Um, you know, so this Crapo Field is town land and DYAA, I think they say they indicate they have a 50-year lease.

Um, but you know, is it DYA's responsibility to do this kind of infrastructure? Is this money going to DYAA or is it really going to the town?

I'm a little not I'm not clear.

um whether this should be going to the town to have that work done. So I don't know what. So I have a few So I have a few questions that kind of try to figure that out like so one I think it would be helpful to um know what the current lease term is um if 50 years if you know are they in year 49 um of the lease. Um,

so what the current term is for the lease? Um, and what is the lease? What are the conditions of the lease? Is DYA as a tenant responsible for all repairs and capital improvements?

Um, you know, you can do it that way, but I don't know if that's what this lease does. Um, don't you think we should have a copy of the lease?

Yeah. Yeah.

So I wanted so I had some questions about who's responsible for the infrastructure what is the lease the current term um try to understand that um because it describes the town as partner so we want to know what's what's the town's role in this Um and it describes um MCE CS2 those two entities as overseeing the project. So I think it's trying to sort out so what's the role of DYA in this project?

What's the town's role?

What is C CS2 Energy's role in this? Like so who's where's who's got the B who's who's going to receive the check? Who's going to sign contracts? Who's going to make sure the work's fine? Who's going to pay the for the work? Um so I think we need to sort this out. Um because I think in terms of if it's the town that's really administering this because it's town property then you know ultimately the

the the warrant is awarding the money to the town and DYA can still have a role and do all those things but we had to be we had to be clear like exactly who should the town be awarding funds to. Um, but I'm not positive it's it in this case it should be the DYA directly since I since this is town owned land and this is capital stuff. Um, they

won't be, you know, DYA won't be walking away with the lights when the lease is done.

Sorry, did someone already say though they lease this land though from the town?

Yes, I think they say they have like a 50-year lease. [clears throat] So, generally if they lease it, they probably own the improvements. So the town may own the land, but the improvements on the That could be. Yeah.

They may own the improvements. Yeah. And so if they own the lights, then it's really them that has to That's what we want to sort out, right?

Yeah. Exactly.

I didn't see that it was a 50-year lease. I just saw that DYA has held a long-term lease on the property for over 50 years.

For over 50 years. Okay.

So that does that mean that like every 10 years they're renewing [clears throat] it? Because I think that would make a difference if you have like a 30 Yeah. 30-year lease versus a long establishment. That's where that number was on my head.

Yeah. Yeah.

You really should have the lease attached. When we do these kind of things, we should get like we get purchase and sales agreements attached.

We should have leases attached.

Yeah. Because I think like Dysa for fields, don't they? They have to like maintain the fields.

They have to maintain the fields. I was involved in that.

They have to do the lights as well because that's they have to do all the maintenance.

Pysa has to do all the maintenance on that property.

Yeah. I was part of that with the build with the buildings and everything right?

The buildings, anything on that property, they're responsible for the park department uh actually, you know, owns that land. So, TYSA, yeah, rents, you know, leases from the park department.

And do we know what the how much they pay for that lease?

Uh, I don't I don't know how much it's it's a it's it's minimal. It's it's just it's on it's it's it's it's just to put it on record and I believe the same thing with DYA but it's a longterm and in exchange they maintain the properties and the fields. Okay.

I can't speak on the DYA directly but I get on the DSA.

No, that's helpful. Yeah.

So, we'll get a copy of the lease sort out term and responsibilities.

Um yeah, Jim, what what other uh renovations, restorations are contemplated for the fields or other facilities there?

Well, again, that brings us to the buildings because they have buildings that they have, you know, the building and the fields are Well, the fields I think maintained by the park department. No, the park department doesn't ma maintain the dya fields that the park department will plow the the the parking lot. Okay.

The park department that the building is, you know, a polling place [clears throat] too. So it's also as a polling place, right? So exchange the town we we we uh so it's also used as a polling uh facility. So I think I remember uh there was an agreement that you know the the town will take care of the parking lot in exchange for them using the building for a polling facility.

So it's been a good long-term u good uh relationship between the town and the diaa.

Maybe it's in 99.

Uh yes. So the same question, what will happen? Uh we can't fund it. How we partially fund it? Um I'm um you know, they need skin in the game in my opinion. They they're proposing uh that the town pay for anything. Um you know, they're a well-run oil machine over there. Um they should have some skin in the game on this project. Uh the town, in my opinion, shouldn't be funding funding at all. Um

the I didn't see anything about uh rebates or incentives from the utility. Typically utilities in the past have for energy savings projects. Yep.

Funded uh lighting upgrades. I don't know if they're still doing that, but that has been substantial in the past.

Again, I don't know.

You know, I worked for the utility years ago. You know, things things could be different now. Um maybe they're not contributed anymore, but I did notice um their lighting fixtures. Um so they're really doing some upgraded.

Um so you know when you compare some of this old metal halite like you know that's that's that's 70s vintage 80s. uh you know they've made substantial um upgrades since then uh that they probably could have gotten some monies for you know 30 years ago to upgrade uh high pressure sodium but anyway um they are looking at when they compare um so in field four for example they got lighting inventory there 1800 watt lamps

there and they're replacing them with 18600 watt Now, watts is the amount of energy that fixture consumes. Um, yep. So, LED is very efficient lighting.

So, what I'm seeing, they are going to see a huge upgrade in their lighting in those fields.

So, they like have a sun a sunblock because I'd like to see something in lumen. So, high pressure sodium a 1000 watt. There's a mention of that that puts out [clears throat] lumens on the ground. That's what you can physically see. And that that can be measured. Um and depending on the activity, every activity, you know, scientists, you know, engineers will put together, well, you need so many lumens

on the ground. You need so many lumens for a workt where you're doing uh having a meeting. Uh that exists for uh ball fields. So, they're getting a huge increase in amount of lumens on them on the ground out there. What is that? What is the existing lumens? What is the proposed uh lumens? And does it have to be that high? You [snorts] know, um because um you know, again, wattage is

what you electricity is that being consumed. So, uh if you went from a 1000 watt lamp down to a 200 watt uh lamp, that's a considerable amount of savings.

Uh but uh they're not even reducing it by half and LED lights can do much much better.

Yeah. Well, that's in settings. Again, I don't have a lot of experience with ball fields, but uh yeah, but there there is a that's appreciate your expertise in this. Um and so that'd be interesting to get you know what is the the lumen the recommended lumen factor for an athletic field or talk to us about the engineering of this.

Yeah. Yeah. What what do they have now and what do they what you know somebody's looked at this somebody from you know a lighting company's put this together. They have that information.

They know what you know the amount of lumens that 1000 watt I mean that 600 watt fixture is uh putting out depending on the height. Uh but they're not reducing a single fixture.

They're replacing everything. And a lot of times when you do these upgrades, you can start you can even reduce not only you you reduce the amount of wattage you're using. Uh but you can reduce fixtures. They're not doing that. So I'm I'm a little bit puzzled by that. Um yeah not I I did not have the technical aspect of it but that you have but the concept I had because I was also interested in

um you know are they increasing the amount of area that's being illuminated. Uh I think there are some parts of Crapo Fuel that don't have I don't think I turning the lights and face on this pole but now facing them one direction a different direction and illuminating more of the field. So and then if there is this big increase in um illumination is there anything they need to think

about in terms of a butter mitigation?

Those are pretty high poles and well it depends on what kind of lights right flood down and stay down like but it become it becomes very bright there something that was okay for neighbors may not be okay anymore if it's I I I have witnessed these fights yeah so just have they considered it um well they did say the C2S energy recommends installation of 600 watt to replace the 112 to 1000 Right.

And that that um you know they give you it uh the estimated annual savings for the 112 fixtures is 15,523 kilowatts. This is based on 364 hours per year. The actual savings can be greater with the available dimming features.

And then for the five 400 watt they're going to they're recommending going down to 200 watt. So there are some it's unclear the this is coming from a sales rep. Now as a sales rep, right?

What do I want to do? You know, I want to sell you fixtures. So I'm going to replace fixture for fixture. If they had a lighting engineer go out there and probably say you don't need to replace eight light bulbs with eight light bulbs.

You know, you need x amount of lumens on the field. You can do that with this new le. I'm just Yeah. Yeah. you know, you got to consider the saws when they say recommends.

Uh Uhhuh.

And uh Mhm.

I I've never seen this in a lighting retrofit that they're replacing um every seems like it could reduce some of those fixtures and and still increase the lumens on the ground because of the type of lights you're using. Yeah, that LEDs.

LEDs are great.

You know, a great lighting source, you know. It's probably better than your flashlight.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's going to be fabulous. It's going to be a big upgrade, you know, putting LEDs. No, no question. I just I just question uh um I had um let's see regarding the CS2 I have a question about because they they have um

they have this estimate. I mean, did this have to go out to, you know, that's where I'm going, right? So, I wanted to know if they have a contract with CS2.

Um, and how is the contract awarded because there would have to be public bid requirements for uh for this project.

So, yes, uh that's so I wanted to try to understand that.

I guess I I had assumed that they were more of like an engineering firm, but it's like more that they're not. It could be that, you know, but um I think if they were, you'd probably see the term, right?

Is it required to do three bids though if they're private nonprofit?

In other words, if they're the ones going back to your original comment, if it's not the town, right, using the money and it's the nonprofit using the money, I don't know if they have the same obligation.

Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't know. Or if they're using CPA funds, that's going to kick in. So, that could that might kick in because actually the cultural center is, I think, struggling with that question.

They thought getting a 30-year lease would relieve them of public bidding requirements, but now, do CPA funds on its face have bidding requirements though?

Do CPA funds have bidding requirements though on its face?

Yeah. Yeah. because they're considered um public funds so they kick in.

Um so I just Googled CS2 energy. The Arab uh based in New provides home energy efficiency services including installation air sealing heat pumps yada yada yada uh often through the mass program that's funded by us utility customers. Uh so you you would think they know if there's anything available for this project.

Yeah. uh services offices, energy audits, insulation, heat pumps.

Um I've wondered now looking at this, do they have a lot of experience? And you know, it looks like they do residential and some commercial.

Um do they have any experience with outdoor lighting and ball field lighting? And that's that's a specialty when you get into that.

um a lot different than uh home lighting.

But anyway, so they're not it appears they're not making money off selling a selling a light bulb.

But again, I didn't see anything in here about any incentives from the utility and from anything from Mass A.

They describe in credentials. Yeah. So I think that that question about other sources of funds. Um under the credential section they they indicate MCE and C2S energy as licensed electrical contractor responsible for permitting and installation and the general contractor. So that would suggest a contractor relationship. So we do have to check in on sort of how that uh is that really a

contract or that's what they anticipate.

But we'll have to consider the bidding requirements.

Yeah, we should look into that. I'm just I did a quick Google search here and uh it you know basically it says uh applicants for CPA Massachusetts applicants are typically not required to submit three bids at the time of the application right?

So they should consult professionals to develop accurate budget blah blah blah.

And it says procurement requirements for the actual work often depend on local municipal bidding law such as 30B.

Yeah.

So again and then I then it raises the question well is this subject to 30B?

Right.

I don't know.

Right. But we can get we can get an answer to that. Let's make that a question.

So they you know that question will go to the town.

Yeah.

There is some energy efficiencies here and they're claiming a 53 $5,400 annual savings. Um, and simply that $5,400 that's year one.

Well, we know utilities go up every year. So, you know, year two, is that $6,000 year three? And again, they [clears throat] got no skin in the game.

So, uh, you know, they're going to see some savings in on the project. you know, let's let's contribute something.

Um, in terms of the application itself, um, we do need them to fill out um, sections the charts in sections C C1, three, and four.

Yeah, they didn't put anything in there.

So you need to see see that information and um is it the ownership parks and wreck owns this is this what do they call chapter 91 kind of land is it 91 it's what's the parks and wreck land oh I don't know I don't does parks and wrecks own the property I don't think they do property not the talk about Crapo Field.

Crapo Field is uh I think that's town owned property.

That's town owned property.

Okay. So, we need So, Pox may help out with some maintenance over there, but the town owns the property.

Pox has a a piece of property behind the police station, but that's not the crypto field is not the town owns the property.

All right. So, we'll have to um All right. So, we need to look into that because um this is um Okay, pull this up for a sec. [clears throat]

have here some place.

The ownership of the classification of the land does matter when it comes to rehabilitation.

[clears throat] So like the use of it in terms of recreation or whatever.

Yeah.

just uh confirm this.

Okay, it's open space. This just says yes, but we'll just confirm that it that it doesn't have to be that that we can do this on property that may not be officially parks and rec property. um that may be okay, but I I'll just I'll just kind of confirm that that it's not um I'll make a note. So that's that's the confirm of ownership and then

All right. I'll just con um confirm that that's not going to be an issue.

[clears throat] Okay.

Anything else we have for this proposal?

Okay.

Very good.

Um, then we have the Dartmouth Cultural Center.

I don't remember seeing this one.

You didn't get that one. That was a So, we have anybody else not get that one?

I think Susan means, don't you, Susan?

You didn't see this at all?

No.

I got six.

No, I got five.

At least unless I got cuz there was a whole series. So maybe I missed it.

We don't have an extra one around here, do we?

She has.

She has one. She said she get it online.

She's got it.

Oh, you do have it.

Yeah.

Oh, in front of me. Yeah. But I don't remember seeing it.

Oh, got it. Okay. Sorry, I missed that part.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay. This is um for the renovations, restoration work at the Old South Worth Library. Um, uh, I had a number of questions here, but first off is I'm not, it says in the cover page or at the top of page two, the amount requested is 260,000.

Um but um the um further into the proposal it says um 20 I mean it says 853,000 and so I am not sure.

Oh yeah. Total project cost 853. And it says CPA funds to be requested 853.

Yeah.

That could just be typo.

So we have to confirm that. What is it?

Is it because they show a gap of $853,000 in their in the but if um if they're only asking for 260 that means there's about another 570,000 still in the gap. So I believe they are actually requesting $853,000 $300.

Where did I put some of that?

Where do they stand with the current?

Like, can they have something current and open with us and still apply for another one?

Yes.

Um and I have a nice little set of notes that disappeared on me somewhere. Um, yes. And so what I I kind of look so what's happened is um they paused the work to get a 30y year lease from the town when which is their hope was or their their expectation uh was that um they would then not be subject to public to 30b.

I'm I think they are hearing something a little different from the town. So now we've had a change in administrations.

So I think they may be hearing something different from the town about whether or not 30B can be waved for this. Um but so no work has been done and so this scope of work is a is essentially I do not see a difference between this scope of work versus the one that was presented to us before except that it's um three times more expensive.

So, it's gone up about 300%.

In terms of its estimate, um, again, I'm somewhere did a nice job, too, on those notes. Um, wow, that's a bummer.

But um basically um, that right there upside down. No, there's a it's a it's a second copy of another one. So, I think I unfortunately printed two of something. Yeah, it's in a bunch of paper.

However, just to give you a sense here of the if you look at the estimate that they provide, do you all have that in here?

No, I only got um No, I don't have that.

But I don't think any of Yeah, this is something that she's they sent over. This was the application and then this is one of the attachments. Yeah.

How I don't have one of my All right. How It's just two pages. Is that something could be made for folks? And Oh, you don't even want that one cuz that's my wife's social security thing. She only needed one page.

Do we remember how much they've been given in the last that scope?

Yeah, let's not send that around.

That's for That's for our taxes.

No more. There'd be no more cookies for you.

Yeah, that's it. Boy, buddy, do you know how much they've been given relative to the scope that Susan mentioned that we've given in the past to them?

Um, we've um we have 260,000 was the original grant to them.

Okay, that was the original grant. They have not.

Oh, so that's why we're probably they probably didn't change it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So then I'm just like But didn't we award that?

Yes.

So I'm so confused about like we were they would that right.

Right. And like why would you I get that if the cost went up?

Yeah.

Why would you submit for the Because this all sounds like the work that we were presenting.

That's why I think that's a mistake.

They actually are submitting for 853,000.

But when you see their estimate that you'll see on top of the 260 though that we've already given. So that's so now where's the budget shows a million dollars?

Correct.

Well, I'm I'm lost. [clears throat] Yeah. Yeah.

But but like what work's been done? What hasn't been done? Why would you put in for this like this estimate? Actually, hold that because this estimate that that you all didn't get will when you look at that you'll see how the figures work. Okay.

So first let's do that. So the first thing is can they submit a correct application with correct numbers in it at that point.

Well I think they probably would say they did is is just three years later those numbers tripled is what they presented.

Thank you very much.

Yeah. So um they need to they need to update the application to reflect that because well that they're saying the funds requested is $260,000. That's right here. So the total estimate is 1.2. Then they're showing the mastering funds, then subtracting the 260 they already got from us. Thank you for that.

No, I get that. But an application is being submitted this year. It should be correct, you know, even though Yeah. Yeah.

that correct. So, you know, we're getting a a budget, but the application needs to be Yeah. So, the number on the Yeah. So, the number on the application has to be uh 85,000.

Buddy, when they first came before is the estimate was high. I remember I don't remember what it was.

Yes. The estimate um before, right, was um four, let's see, um was $320,000 plus though, wasn't it?

H Didn't they say they because there was different phases, right? So, where are we in phases? What was the total phase?

It was different phases.

I just I would have liked to see paused, right? So no work has been done.

The only thing done is you can see in their application um let's see you'll see in their application where they indicate work that's been done. Um it is on page six activity to date.

So those are the expenditures to date.

And so what you have was um an original when they uh in 2023 this scope of work an estimate that is going to be somewhere around um $320,000 um plus their work. I think it all ended up being something like $400,000 I think something of that nature. Um and then work was paused and they um yeah $420,000 was the original in 2023.

So I would request something chron chronologically from Yeah.

uh because you know not only for us but Tom meeting this goes forward Tom meeting is going to be asking these questions anyway. Um so it's very confusing because no one can remember dates you know what's been spent what's not spent been spent but I think if we have something listed out chronologically when was awards making when was expenditures uh taken when was the pause uh something that makes sense for us all

and uh yeah right Because the 853 plus the 260 that's 100 I mean 1.1 million over 1.1 million total.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um so I've looked at this and the scope of work is is pretty much the the same. I don't see but that's the thing to confirm is is there any additional scope of work but I don't believe so.

I think that's where the 260 comes is this is the former application and they just didn't change it at the top like so they haven't correct that was yes I think that was a just a typo and that they didn't that they they kind of did it was a cut and paste issue yes right yeah [clears throat] so for instance um item one exterior or it item one the handicap bathroom or access elevation um

that kind of stuff. Um that was I can see those totals.

[clears throat]

That all was like $70,000 plus um yeah, that was all $70,000 it originally.

Um [snorts] the exterior restoration piece was originally 150,000. It's now 320.

Um interior work was originally 100,000.

It's now 350.

How old is that, buddy? I'm sorry. The the original estimate that you're reading, how old was it?

So, um, let's see. Uh, 2023.

2023.

We both So, what's interesting and I think it's good to have for us the finance committee and town meeting is um, you know, because of delays. The original estimate was X and now it's 1.273.

Yeah.

Yeah. It shows the impact of delay delays and yeah, you know, if you don't have the money, you can't spend it. But um yeah, I know this organization was, you know, it took forever for the select to yes agree on a 30-year lease, and that should have been a no-brainer. one meeting done. Yeah. But they dragged their feet and put those not an easy process, right?

And it it it shouldn't be a difficult process, you know. Um it's just unfortunate. Look at that cuz the the town dragged their feet. Look at the uh the cost now.

We need that lease too, buddy.

Don't you think?

Yeah.

What was the total cost, buddy? Before it was Now it's 1,273. What was it in 2023? Did uh it was um let's see including the architectural and engineering. It was at that time estimated at 420,000.

All in I think some of that interior stuff was uh was more modest.

Um, and one difference I want to kind of confirm. So, their their estimate three years ago was done by a a company.

Mhm.

I'm not sure who did this estimate, right?

Um, so I think we should find out the source of this new estimate for the work.

I thought it was Oh, three years ago. It was that architect.

Yeah, they hired a company. Um, uh, what was the company?

Olive Branch or something, right? Another company. Yeah.

Like the increase. I think it says assuming prevailing wage but not mass public bid. So isn't I I'm trying to remember the conversation around some of the cost increase could be that prevailing wage.

Um not just the right.

Um yeah, it's a good point. They may come back and say, "Yeah, originally our estimate didn't include wages and now it does."

Yeah.

So, yeah. Why did it like what is the cause of the costing significant cost increase would be obviously important to know.

And then just the the if they're submitting basically the same application they did in 2023, what is the protocol for it's a proposal that was accepted and awarded, but you're I get that the price has changed, but like what's the technicality of how you would submit because it's not really a new application. It's just saying now the prices have gone haywire.

Yeah. If it if it's literally copied and paste from 2023, it's not a new application. It's like the same application. You're just asking for more funds for the same application.

It's kind of like doing a, you know, like some of these housing developments that that um take a long time to finance and and nail down the numbers. They've come back to us, right?

And we've we've entertained, but there are still separate awards, so we still have to go to town meeting. Um, I was just wondering what is the like logistical way that that's supposed to work?

Yeah. So, we'll still go to town meeting and awarding, you know, an additional X dollars for the project.

Yeah.

Um, I'd like to ask a question. Uh, I don't know, maybe Buddy knows or Michael knows. They got a 30-year lease, and there was a reason they wanted a 30-year lease. Okay. I thought one of the reasons was that they could borrow the money easier with a 30-year lease. Okay.

And also with a 30-year lease, would prevailing wages still take effect?

Because now it's a 30-year lease, it's a lot different.

I don't know on the on the um wages front, you know.

Okay.

But definitely from a financing standpoint. Yeah.

Yeah. That's why I I thought one of the reasons they wanted the 30-year life year lease was because of financing.

Mhm.

Yeah. I think they thought there was going to be financially in their favor.

I thought it was the public bidding piece that they were hoping the 30b requirement they were hoping.

I don't know but I can check about prevailing wage too.

So we'll just confirm whether right and these will go these questions will go to the town. So 30b apply for this project. The prevailing wages provide this project.

Um and then um you know are there any other you know they have a matching grant and they've spent some of that money um but are there any other grants available now that the price has increased?

Well, one of the things I saw somewhere in here they talked about over here systems best aligned with the ma the comwalth of mask decarbonization goals.

I know that there are decarbonization uh grants available uh state level through the department of energy.

So, I don't know if they've looked into this.

[snorts]

Yeah, we should just confirm on the the existing Mass uh historic commission grant. Is that's you know is that term still good or is it has it been extended? We shall probably get some evidence that that that 260 is still in place.

Oh, that's 160.

Yeah.

Um, and it looks like they've 160 expended maybe 160. Thank you.

Yeah, they've only expended 29 of that according to the yellow.

Get something in writing about that.

Grant

[snorts]

[snorts]

[clears throat] [snorts]

So if I'm not really sure I fully understand the 260 that we've already awarded, is that going to the um bid documents and the bidding process?

Yes. So I think so when they show in that yellow part funds that have tapped like we just signed off on 2500 bucks.

Yeah.

That's from that 260.

Yeah.

And that and it looks like with at the time of this application when they submitted it um previously $20,000 have been drawn down from the 260.

We should question buddy I think I have is uh will they provide a representative at town meeting to speak on their

[snorts] Yeah, it's funny because on the scope of work on the estimated budget doesn't really have design services on it. It's all construction related things.

So, it is a fair question really because it's like, well, we're paying for design stuff. Now if you look at spent the day Yeah.

but they're showing the 260 is part of this scope which doesn't include design.

So yeah but no it's got the a it's got the architecture I missed that. Yeah fees and [snorts] okay I missed that. So there's 96,000 accounted for that. Okay.

All right.

Okay. So, we're going to confirm the amount that they really need. Um, get a chronology. Just walk us through. So, originally we had an award.

There was a pause. There's been some money spent down, you know, just [snorts] kind of just walk us through the narrative with the what their reasoning.

Yeah. Further pause and Yeah. You know. Yeah. Um clarify scope and cost increase and then we really need to understand how this price has gone up you know what what's driving such a big uh increase uh in the estimate and who who provided these numbers. Um we will check with the town about public bidding the 30b application to this and prevailing wage rates. Um, [clears throat and cough]

and then there's questions about other sources of funding um, for this project um, that they are looking at or talking about pursuing or have are pursuing.

I mean, we've asked for every other project. Where's the skin in the game?

Yeah. Yeah.

I think that they did on provide some on Yeah. To date, they've got some mass historic grants. They have a couple. So, Yep. and they were taking funds from themselves. I thought I saw something.

So, uh, they'd have they did have skin in the game in the original application, but they do.

Yeah, it's more we get a copy of these.

Yeah.

In three years, it's tripled in price and certainly we all know things have gone up, but I didn't know construction costs had tripled in price in three years. I'm I'm a little bit taken back. The cost of material has really gone up.

Yeah, I did look that up at tripled.

[snorts] You know, I I'm like, hasn't it really?

It has. But I mean, I'd like to hear the story, too, because I mean, I'm not seeing three two or 300% increases.

Yep.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. I'm overseeing a project for my son right now that he he he built the house two and a half years ago, was building another one, and the costs weren't doubled or triple from what we did.

Yeah. It just it does seem very no there's been some inflation but wow you know what's were were their estimates way off three years ago was that part of the reason that's we need and uh I I feel they it's important to understand that their estimates were way off but they do do a nice job with that cultural center though. Yeah. I mean, as a project another 10, you know.

Yeah.

For me, it's, you know, it's transparency. Honestly, their estimates are off. Own it.

Yes. Right.

And and what makes these better, right?

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. I just feel like we've seen more extensive documentation when projects are that big.

Yeah.

You know, very detailed. We did on the first time.

The first time they came, we had a really detailed.

Yeah.

Really detailed.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, that that's that is it just jumps out at you. That's it's an unusual unusual increase in in costs.

Okay.

Uh the Deval Field Deval Field um request for $575,000.

Buzzards Bay is requesting this.

Um, and the town would uh the conservation commission has a letter in here saying they would um hold the conservation restriction for this property uh if it went forward. Um questions about this And just the scope of this is this piece of land is would be purchased and the buildings on the land which consist of a house built in the early '7s would be demolished. So that it would be a

demolished a house and out building. So basically it would be um returned to just vacant um open space.

Is this going to be tied into the playground?

Doesn't look like it connects there because there's there is a house lot in between two, right? Yeah.

So, I could see if it was going to be connected to the playground, but you've got the river there, too. So, so they they do say it's going to be open to passive recreation.

Um they do, but they didn't go into any detail. So, um you know, I'd like to that's a significant amount of money for a small piece of property and um what I'd be curious to know what are their what are their true plans for if they're tearing down a house and you know will there be for an example a parking lot or will there be signage to indicate that the public is welcome

here? Uh because to invest this kind of money and not um be welcomed to the public, I have an issue with, you know, if it looks like private property because historically that's always been private property. You know, no one's ever been able to walk out there and do anything with it. And so I'd like a little bit more detail on what they think they're going to be doing with it as far as passive recreation. Will there

be, for an example, another um potential canoe and kayak launch site?

Yeah, there's one right around the corner, but you know what?

They did mention that, but in in the um in the goals that there would be water access, but then I didn't see where that was laid out.

Well, water actually could be just for fishing, and I don't know cuz I've never walked the the um drop off to the river there. Is it ideal for fishing or is there a a wall, you know, where the town landing is, there's a wall all along there other than where the ramp is.

So, does that wall exist all the way up?

Mhm.

On this property, too, that there is no ramp for a canoe launching. It's those kind of questions. What are, you know, what what are they thinking as far as uh Yeah. just passive provide much needed public access to the river fun front for outdoor passive recreation and enjoyments. So it it doesn't so it is again I mean picnic tables is gonna be you know a fire pit but I'm just asking

you know what's how welcome is this going to be to the public and will it be a parklike setting or just open space that you're going to know it's I can walk they talk about doing this art organization kind of so what would that look like there will there be kind of some installations there on the property you know outdoor or sculptury things or that's what it sounds like is yeah some sort of art

trying to get a little bit detail you also have next well not next door but across the river but you know you also have a launching and you also have the child uh yeah there's a lot they already that you already have used you have that little tennis court we have a little playground and tennis court tennis courts the playground that we just revamped and that's that's we just did a a functional launch place, right?

Everybody goes down there in the summer.

Everybody launches their canoes and boats down there because I go by it all the time.

I do.

Yes. And so, uh, you've got that right there. I mean, if you just got a piece of land, you got something that everybody the neighborhood and people from New Befford when they have the daffodils, people come. So you've got that right there already.

Yeah. Will they provide parking if there's going to be public access? Is there going to be right parking on the site? because that's a that's a difficult place to park if you uh so what I'm confused in their U page nine they um go over expenses um 780,000 total 575 okay I'm getting it now from CPA and then 205 Mhm.

Yeah.

From other uh doesn't say what the other source of funding is.

I thought I saw that there fund.

So what private funds or fundraisers, right? Yeah. Um and they say it that the funding that funding is secure like there's that that's Yes.

And and and and you know they certainly are putting skin in the game. So, I appreciate that. Where where is that coming from? I'm just curious.

I just think that's a lot of money. Um, we don't know exactly what they're going to use the the land for. Uh, and as I said, we have the pot that's there that a lot of people use now.

Mhm. But there's parking right there, you know, at the park.

Well, they got a curb cut, you know. So, can they provide some parking how they do that?

Okay.

Looks like in the aerial there is a stone wall along the along the river. So, I don't think they're going to do another [clears throat] Oh, no. That's the other parcel. Or is it? No, that's the parcel they're talking about.

So the other park is right down here, right? That's where the Yeah, Russ. Okay.

But there's not a lot of parking there in the Russ. There's not.

And you really It's dangerous to walk from that the real to the park up to that.

It really is sidewalk, right?

Passive or active recreation there like you said, fishing or canoeing.

During the daffodil days, they have police there.

I don't know what the uh terrain is between the dam and this property. Will there be a walking path over to the dam?

Probably that terrain won't allow it. I don't know what the elevations are there. Um but that's a nice feature. You know, you get out and walk around and if you can walk across the street easily to the dam. We want to kind of know more specific on how this property could be used, how the public would have access to it, particularly.

Um, will there be parking area on the property for the public to be able to access this parcel?

Um in terms of um the logistics of this I think the way we outlined this I'm a little surprised they didn't since they went to conservation commission they didn't already be advised on this but the award really has to go to the town it can't go to them conservation that was the whole point of like rethinking you know about we got the steps are different than we have in the past. So, um

I believe so for so it's the conservation commission that gets the money CPA money that they will then use to purchase the conservation restriction from Buzzards Bay. That's the way this works. We can't give the town cannot give money to Buzzards Bay to purchase. Yeah. You and then Buzzard Bay give right that was a whole thing. We had to re reorder the steps. The state rejected the idea of give Buddy the

money 100 bucks and then you know uh Buddy will give John the CR. Say no no no.

Buddy buys the property.

John buys the CR. That's how it works.

That's how you know that [cough] John had money in this. Otherwise, it just looks like we gave Buddy a bunch of money.

So, the town has to be the one buying the property then.

Uh, buying the restriction.

Buying the restriction. So, who's buying the real estate then?

So, Buzzard's Bay is what they have to do is buy it and then turn around 20 minutes later and sell that CR for 575. So they they have to at least for the first 20 minutes of the transaction have 700, you know, have have $725,000 and then they turn around and they close on the conservation restriction for 575.

But interesting.

Yes.

They have a PNS right now with the seller.

Yeah. cuz the cuz what the state was saying rejected was what how we've done it before which is okay I'm going to go buy the property now state you're going to give me 575 for the conservation restriction but the state was basically say well the state can't buy it from Buddy because Buddy doesn't own the property you can't give him the 575 for conservation restriction because he's not giving you the restriction

he has to own it then he has then he can sell it to you.

I see.

So it's little, you know, it's just technically you have to do it in that order.

But that means conservation commission has to get the money.

Okay. So, um I'll reach out to um Cody about that and just also let them know because but my my understanding was we'd amend the application to add the conservation commission on as a co-licant I think is the way you would do that and the award if the town meeting it goes in front of town meeting the award is to conservation commission town of Dartmouth for the purpose of purchasing

a conservation restriction on X piece of property to ball field. That's how it would work.

Where are you seeing the purchase and sales agreement? Buzzards Bay. There's a purchase and sales agreement, but it's not it's Oh, it's between Buzzards Bay and the owner and the seller.

The uh this art organization came in and bought, right? And they bought it. Yeah.

Probably within they basically just bought it agreement then. No, no. The art organization bought the property probably because the owner wasn't going to wait.

Oh. Then with the understanding that they had another written agreement with Buzzards Bay that they would then sell the property to Buzzards Bay.

Then they'd sell it.

Okay.

Oh, I will um because I'm I'm reading the purchase and sales agreement now. Yeah.

And uh Oh, okay. I just see this. Yeah.

Yeah. personal representative with Priscilla Dval aka and her husband was Chief Deval from the fire district.

Okay.

Okay.

And but um and it just says agrees to sell it to Buzz's Bay Coalition. So that's what I read and then nonprofit but that yeah that mass at whatever it was the op place.

So there's a there's another party involved here then I think so they [clears throat] go between they must have assigned this purchase and sale over to them.

They must have then execute and bought it and now they're going to sell it sell it back for the value.

That's right for 725,000.

Sure.

Um so well I'll confirm with the town that they um need to join this application.

Mhm.

Um also have um will the another question I had will a demolition permit need be needed for for this? Um, since I think the property was built in 1972, it probably it may be right on the cusp of 50 years the historical commission needing to approve the the demolition.

Um, so we'll get confirmation of that and then, you know, you never know. I don't know the property or I do [clears throat] 1972 I think I was in middle school. So I, you know, I don't feel too historic about that, but you never know. You never know.

I know 50 years doesn't seem like much anymore.

But if if the structures Sorry, it doesn't.

Yeah.

Well, I I'm classified as a historic.

I'm being kind of whispered. It's 75 years.

Well, then I'm okay.

Then you're okay. So the the question would be if the structures can't be if let's say the dem well confirm whether or not they need a demolition permit to remove the structures you would from the historic not from that yeah um and if if by chance they aren't removed how does that impact the project and I think John should we add that if you don't get all the money how will that impact the project

the structures are definitely under the purview of the historic commission for demol ition the those old rolled in it 75 years. So the house I'm not sure if it is I think it was built in 72.

Yeah, you know.

Oh, it was built in.

That's what they and the garages too.

I don't know about that. Right.

This I don't know why I thought that was much older.

We could we can always ask down the assessor too.

That's right.

Just get a feel cut.

[snorts]

And they say they're pursuing other funding. So we can get the can ask what the status is of their efforts to secure other funding for this.

I'd be curious to know how their um what their maintenance plan is. Do they plan to mow the field as a lawn? Do they plan to um cut the field annually? You know, what's what's their uh Mhm.

or let it go and and to a natural state? I be curious to know.

Kind of sounds like that's the goal.

I don't know. If you let it go to a natural state and let the public go on it Yeah.

then you've got problems with ticks and things like that.

Yeah. Well, I mean, but that's Buzz Bay Coalition's got that all over the place.

I mean, they have woodlands that's got tick. So, I don't think that's an issue for I'm just curious what what's their intent.

Will they do they plan on maintaining as a as a park? Do they plan on maintaining as just because that'll be factored into the CR?

So, that's a good question. You know, is it going to be m is a landscape going to be preserved as is? So as is mean it's it's not it's a just a a grassy y piece of land um or or is it going to be allowed to re you know um have picnic tables of stuff go back to some other state with some so yes we need to get clarification of that um

look at I mean look you put some park benches along the rib there what a great view looking up the river from Great little site, but is that their intent, right? When they say it's a great little site for public access.

No, we're not going to do that. You can just stand there and look up the river.

I'm just curious what their intent is.

Y

any other questions on this? Um I did look the the appraised value with the CR is um the is something like 50,000 or so.

So their their appraised value of the conservation restriction I think is $63,000 or something like that. Y and by practice we um see uh 630 right and by practice we have not wanted to um provide CPA funds that were greater than the valuation of the CR. Um, so some towns have a little leeway, but that's historically been our practice is is um to stick with the appraised CR value or less.

Okay, no further questions. Let's move on to the Pasamancet Valley.

Could someone um pass me the fudge, please?

It's B time.

Okay.

And are these all the wonder where where this when you see this?

There's a passing tax.

Okay.

Evaporation.

the Pascam sit valley conservation project to request for $1 million um to acquire 29 acres. Actually, it's um let's see, this would be the um yeah, this would be Buzzard's Bay would like to acquire this property.

the town. Well, this is where it's not clear um about the conservate. So, one thing I did notice um this is the old application.

So, it's not the application that was revised and put on our website.

So what's missing is the language around the CRS for open space.

So um this project [snorts] does need um we need something in writing from the conservation commission. We need to know who's holding the conservation restriction.

Actually it has to be the town. So, we need something in writing from the conservation commission indicating that they will hold the conservation restriction.

Um, we will need an appraised value of the CR.

Um, and I'll write to Cody. This again, the town would need to join this application as a co-licant in order to be the recipient of um, CPA funds.

So, this is like half of the old outdoor country club golf course.

Yeah, looks like it. And the other half is going to be a subdivision.

It's a 40B. Yep.

I did I didn't know that.

I didn't either.

So, did they sell did the golf course did they sell this and then I don't know.

Like I'm just wondering if they subdivided the lot or if it was already subdivided.

That's a question. Does this lot have to what we're looking at does that require a subdivision of the parcel? Subdividing the parcel. Yeah.

That was good.

So they say who who owns it now?

I think this Bliss Investors, right? Bliss investors.

So they must have bought the entire site.

[snorts] This must be the development team that bought it, right?

I don't know because I think Bliss Invest. Yeah, I think investors the older was the old owner.

Well, that's the old owner. Okay.

I think so.

So, I'm kind of I was kind of confused when I saw this because So, the 27 acres, it's a [snorts] little confusing.

Says it will acquire 29 acre portion of the lodger approximately 56 acre property.

Anticipation. They want to they're buying they're buying that 29 acres surrounding [snorts] if it goes through the that 40B with 147 houses on it.

So then the rest of it's going to be conservation. That's kind of cute.

Keep the values up.

I don't know.

That's a big subdivision.

I don't recall them uh I don't recall it being subdivided. I'd have to look.

You'd have to look.

Yeah, that would have come before the planning board.

Yeah, I don't I don't recall see I don't remember this. I would have remembered this.

Remember that.

I would have remembered this. Yeah.

So, um So, yeah. So, that's a question. Has the property been um subdivided? Yeah. Um,

I mean, I've only been out once [snorts] or twice, but I I I would have heard about this, I think.

[cough]

So this this 29 acres what I'm I'm looking at would not have any street frontage. Am I correct in looking at that? Looking at this plan, there's no street frontage on this plan. I think that's correct.

So, they would just let this get reforested, it says.

Right.

So, if there's no street frontage on this plan, how would the public access this?

Write that down.

I'm a bit puzzled because they talk about u passive recreation. how for this site and one of their hourly uh right access meet the goals and they describe you know in our CPC plan uh goal number three to provide a range of active and passive recreational facilities and programs that address the changing population. So a range of active and passive. So passive recreation is you can walk. Active recreation is ball

fields and um Well, if it's going to be if they're claiming they're going to meet the goal of as an active recreational area, how do they do that with no frontage, no roads, no parking? It's just um the only people that are really going to be able to access that is if the 40B goes in because they will but it correctly. That's it. I can't see how you're going to let on 29 acres the

other people come unless you have some sort of easement with uh that first parcel the 27 acre parcel which I'm sure you're not going to get because of what's going there or hopes to go there.

So a question is we always when we contribute funds to a piece of property is does the public have access to it?

[snorts] Where is that access? How's that going to work? they going to secure some deed restrictions through the Hawthon development.

Yeah.

Um where and I don't know if that is going to be a private roadway or a public roadway. I have no idea if that's been determined yet. Uh so if it's a private roadway, how do I as a member of the public access this conservation area? I don't see anything on the other side from Fairway Drive.

Um there certainly no now Fairway Drive is a private road. Um so even that well there's there's talk now about the subdivision 40B having access to Failwood Drive fairway drive and I think there's I haven't followed it exactly but I think there's a little argument about that.

Well they do you can see it. Yeah, but I don't know that they can access.

Yeah, how they have frontage on fairway drive. Whether what kind of access that means is a whole another thing. I know they get over that, but uh again, how does the public going to access this conservation?

I don't know how they'd ever get in there.

Swim maybe.

Well, on on the north side, there's that strip of what is is marked, right?

Uh, and that appears to be contiguous to K Country Club Boulevard. Is that a Is that a private road?

I don't know.

So, you boulevard is a is a public road.

Country Club Yeah. Country Club Boulevard is is a public street.

That's interesting.

Yeah. So definitely Country Club Boulevards the Concom property.

Um you could Is that where they're claiming access is going to be?

That's that's but if this is going to be an active recreational area, there's no parking there. There's you'd have to provide parking.

Yeah, I suppose you know it prevents uh further growth of the subdivision, right? like phase two of a future subdivision.

I don't know if that would It's a 40B now. So, if they were going to do another phase, I think they would have to state that. I don't know. Michael, you would No, I don't mean like right now, but I mean like in the future if this wasn't conservation land protected or restricted, right? you know, someone may whoever like the developer may be able to hold on to that parcel

with the intention in the future to do something to it down the line.

So, I mean, I'm surprising the developer has given up this property other than it can be developed. You know, why that wasn't a condition at the meetings, was it?

I didn't go. I'm just wondering if like that came up as like a conversation piece like you know, oh we'll we'll give back half the site as conservation land.

Yeah, but they're not giving giving it.

They're not giving it.

It's not being blocked.

Do they need some of that money to help with the development or is it I mean it's hard to see but is this lower and it's in the flood plane and therefore can't Well, that's what I'm wondering. If it's not buildable, it's not if it's not buildable. So um because if it was I think they would keep it this would be phase five and six you know I think they're proposing three phases this would be

four five and six you know so so I think these are all good questions for them when they come next month flush out the logistics quite of it yeah I mean there's one map that talks about zone two I'm guessing that's flood plane yeah And it it is outside of that.

Oh, okay. And to and to your point, buddy, does the con if this is going to be a deed restricted process, does they need to also be in party to this application? Same same on the other one, you know?

Correct. Yeah, it'll be the same situation.

Same situation.

Oh, and okay.

So, do I want to um how I've written the this broad question of so how will public access be provided? Also, there's a question about whether this is parcel needs to be subdivided and if that's happened or when will that happen?

Are there other more specific things?

Yeah, defined um pass of recreation, right?

Yeah.

Defined types of passive recreation.

What uses are contemplated?

Is it just a walking trail?

We're supposed to be responsible.

Oh, yeah.

Exactly.

Right.

Right up to the elevator. Okay.

Um, so a question is if the properties how they going to maintain it currently I see it's um it's being mowed.

Um, so is the plan to maintain it in its current condition? is a plan to let it go back to its national state. Um, it does say a little bit about that. Um, it says following BBC's acquisition of the property, BBC will restore the landscaped features of the property to facilitate reforestation throughout the property. BBC will also establish passive recreational trails and related

amenities, appropriate signage, benches, etc. with a possibility for connections to adjacent protected lands.

access right?

But where's that access going to be?

Yeah. [snorts] Yeah. Such restoration, ongoing management and upkeep of public access, amenities will be overseen by BCC, BBC professionals, restoration, and land management staff supported by a dedicated network of local volunteers.

Doesn't define the public access. It just says they'll maintain it.

Yeah, we don't know what it is.

There's a beautiful trail to the river down there that goes to the bridge.

There's a bridge.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's just two beams. One of the earliest uh it's pretty cool projects. Yeah.

Finding that when I was a kid and thought it was the neatest thing ever.

You know that was Yeah.

Be nice to have continued access to down there.

Mhm.

I don't know how nice it's going to be with 147 houses right next door.

And it [clears throat] is a 50% match with a million dollar private fundraising donations. That's huge.

Yeah. No, I I presume that that's probably a donation from the neighboring development.

I would think none of our business, but maybe it is worth a question just to say please.

Um,

yeah, we can ask what what are the other what's the other what's the source of the other funding?

Yeah. Yeah.

To to know that it's how how secure it is, you know.

Yep.

That's all I can think of.

So, we don't we don't uh and we we have we don't have any proof of assessment, right? So, who Well, I was going to say there's no purchase and [clears throat] sales or agreement on any of this, right?

Who's assigning the value here?

So, we we need an appraisal. Yeah.

Yeah.

We need a purchase and sales agreement, too.

Yeah. Just want to understand kind of the structure, the ownership structure and all that. You know, this is all nice, but it's not anything that we could moving along.

Very confusing.

It is.

Any other questions on this one? Okay. We'll ask for an appraisal. We'll definitely, you know, and a purchase and sales.

Yep. and a purchase, right? Yep.

Purchase and sale.

All right. Very good. And there are a bazillion letters of support um rather than give everybody and they're form form letter pretty much, isn't it?

Yep.

Yeah. So, um signed by easily a couple of dozen people. So, um, we spared making Yeah, they spared making copies.

I'm curious to know what the maintenance plan is for, uh, being adjacent to a high density development, right?

Um, I I I'm wondering and Oh, just tell me to be quiet, but I'm wondering what that effect would have on the 40B B because you're going to have a lot of children on that far if that goes if it goes through, you're going to have a lot of children at that 40 B.

And they're going to jump over a fence and go down to the river.

No, I'm just thinking the safety.

Yeah.

Okay. But aren't kids supposed to do that? Like it's a recreation like it's a recreation area, right? That's what passive recreation is. Yeah.

Go get lost in the woods, kids.

I I think that's great that kids will have but but it has to be safe.

Kids will be kids and teenagers will be teenagers and they abuse things and they take advantage of things and it's got to be maintained because Yes.

when it's not it becomes ugly.

That's right. I listen um we used to do there's big things speaking now about how parents don't let their children do that stuff.

Okay. Well, we I did it.

All I'm saying now with that kind of housing there, you're going to have a lot of children there. You have to have some kind of control, Susan. I mean, you have to know if there's paths if if they're going to be, you know, you have to be careful. You have to be safe because not everybody uses their head.

So buddy, we got letters of support, but I don't see those. You said there's a whole list of Oh, yes.

support. We didn't get a copy.

No, just because there was so many and there's a form letter. We spared you that, but if you want to look at the list of people who provided, but it's a form letter, but we can pass that around.

I'm just taking a look.

Sure.

Okay. Uh we have one more uh proposal.

This is the farmlands conservation fund and um I'll scoot. I just want to look at this.

Yes. Yes, we can accommodate you.

This is this the letter or this is Oh, mostly each they each did their own. Okay, gotcha.

Yeah.

Duly noted for recusing myself.

Yeah. Duly noted for the record, Ms.

Murray is stepping aside from the committee table to join the audience.

I'm even going to scoot outside.

Taking full advantage. She's going outside.

I was going to be.

Okay.

That's what I used to do too in the planning.

These are rollers.

So, the Dartmouth Farmland Conservation Fund, um it's a multi-year request. The initial year, um $1.5 million to capitalize the fund and then in the next three subsequent years, $750,000 uh each year.

[clears throat] So just a quick question for you buddy.

Yes, I think you'll know the answer to this. So if if this were to be approved at town meeting as proposed then that means that basically they wouldn't have to come back for another three years. So it' be like we'd be forward committing 750 I believe. So, we haven't done that in Dartmouth, but I believe, right, I believe you can make those forward commitments subject to available fund, you know, kind of a

clause sort of thing. But, uh, town meeting would just be voting this one time for the next three years, this full amount of three, whatever it is, 37 five over that period of time, right? I mean, we could choose and this is going to be up to us how we want to approach that. um either to go to town meeting with that full four-year, you know, commitment and or um go with

choose as a committee to accept the application um but choose to submit separate warrants at in at subsequent town without having to reapply to us. But we would just um separate, you know, apply uh choose to submit a warrant for each year for a boat.

So would this be similar to the conservation commission? I mean, sorry, similar to what we're talking about with the open space where they would be buying a a conservation restriction, but instead of a conservation restriction, it would be an agricultural restriction.

Is that sort of what the the funds would be used as or is it actually or is it real estate dollars to buy land? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

You could use them as CPA can be used.

So either either or. Okay. And what and again I'm not I guess I'm not clear what the proposal is to be used. I think it's I think just as a question for me to clarification that it's to buy that restriction piece, but maybe it's not. Maybe it is to buy the land. I'm not clear.

Yep. So it probably so um in the goals in the goals and description area section one we would want to see um a more um precise or clear description of the scope of how CPA funds would be used because it just says to conserve and protect scenic qualities and then objective is to protect preserve and conserve you know scenic forest land but I don't know what [snorts] what that means

and I think if we you know in in noting that get a more specific uh description of the scope of how the CPA funds would be used um and tie that and just make sure it's consistent with also with the um state statute that allows for such a fund which is um chapter 40 section 8 L if I can kind of can phrase a question like that.

So you want to see because we're looking at two things. One that's the CPA funds are used for the kinds of things they can be used for CPA but that that's also consistent with the uh state statute for the fund itself.

Mhm.

I mean they'll overlap pretty much but we just want to be sure that so um this is this is really really stupid question but because of past history with certain farms if they were to purchase a farm with this money which they're going to Okay.

Yeah.

What kind of deed restrictions would the CPC be a able to put into those? So, we don't have any problems with the use or would it be in perpetuity?

We have to know about the deed restrictions when they purchase a farm.

Would they have to come back to the CPC and say, "Here's the deed we're buying.

This is the we're going to sell this to Joe Schmo and here's the deed.

I don't know. I mean I don't know. That's a question. Yeah.

That's my concern.

I I want it to be used as a farm farm.

And and then again, this just shows a little bit of my ignorance in asking the question, but the um so the farmland conservation fund is what we're really so it's the agricultural commission is going to oversee this farmland conservation fund, I think.

Yeah. And then that money goes in that and then the agriculture commission would then make decisions on how how that money is spent over time for different projects. So then um and and again it just goes um assuming that those projects would also to your point qualify for CPA related Yeah.

Yeah.

goals and objectives.

Yeah. So that way, you know, um Okay.

Yep.

Now, the last time that we spoke, um I guess there was this agricultural commission before and I don't know, did they have any money left in it?

Well, the the the pres the agricultural preservation trust trust.

Um I can't remember. There may be a little bit, but not much. Uh and yeah, we want to know what's right. That trust can't receive CPA funds. This that's why this fund.

But can that trust put money into this fund?

Um I will ask that question. I think the answer how much is there and can they I think the answer is yes, but I'll ask that question. Um so buddy what is so the ad commission is not the responsible party to disperse the funds they're setting up they call it a group of 10 but they and their trustees what is the trustee what is that name yeah so I need to find out a little bit

better that the ad commission is not awarding these funds. It's this group of 10 who what is that group of 10 called? Does that have to be an official name? An you know uh yeah so actually I think that's official commission official committee uh yeah I think that's where the description in the application doesn't square with the statute of section 48.

So um I think that I think what we'll need is a rewrite of the description section of the fund. So it's not only the scope but also being really clear about the roles and responsibilities. So only the ad commission can make decisions about the fund.

Uh so the only decision-making body in the fund per statute is um the a commission about so other yes the fund that we're being requested to capitalize only the ad commission can make decisions about that fund because the state statute only allows the ad.

So once the group attends we're all done. Well, that's that's why it has to be rewritten so that the the trustee group can advise and make recommendations, but that's it.

Well, an advisor, do you have any standing? I mean, what?

Right.

And what happens when there's a conflict?

Well, the ad there's only one decision maker, right? So, they're only So, I' I'd like to know the definition. they only a recommendation and the ad commission can adhere to the recommendation or ignore the recommendation.

Uh I'd be curious to know what the uh what the intent is there.

Yeah, because I think we just get a a rewrite of that. Yeah.

You know, I was comfortable when I first heard about that because of the group of 10. Mhm.

Who is going to be a diverse group of people?

Yes.

Um that can really vet the project and not have special interests. The ad commissioners obviously got special interests. Well, this group of 10 doesn't have special interests and hopefully the project because of it will get well vetted. Um, and oh, this this this really changes things for me because that's what we're we're setting up another um well, we're not, you know, this is a CPC group. I mean, so

they're bypassing the CPC who was a well diverse and who vets these projects. Um well one of the things too I think number under number four in credentials it does have community preservation committee listed it'll it just it says the CBC will participate in decisions to allocate funds from the farmland conservation fund. So again, I think just to clarify the logistics of who's doing what, what the involvement is, I

think it would just be helpful to understand what the thought process is.

And so the and that's why I think that this section needs to be rewritten because to be consistent with the law because if it's not consistent with the law, it's not eligible for CPA funds.

Right. Right.

So um and this is the 8L municipal agricultural commission section of chapter 40.

Okay. So, and then it talks about the commission and the commission can have a fund, the commission can do these things, etc. I think the proposal is going the extra mile to address John's concerns, which is like that is a really good model to have all this other input.

Yeah.

It's just that the hands are tied by the law. You can't, you know, in terms of like who makes the decision that's out of everybody's hands, right? But this proposal does take that extra mile to try to compensate for that, I think, and and say they're going to use this advisory committee, which I think is fine and I think actually makes it a more palpable for all the reasons John described. It's

just they can't make them the decision makers. They don't have the authority to do that.

Right. But for our decision to to to initiate the seeding of this fund, we have to know to your point that if it's following eight L of the Yeah. of the law of the CPA laws, right?

So it should, you know, the the rewrite of the description should be really clear that this is a fund set up pursuant to to right this exact chapter. Mhm.

Um because that's going to tie us in down the road in terms of what town meeting is actually giving money to. Um it needs to be clear that the agricultural commission is making the decisions and then there's this trustee that is group that is advisory.

Um I think the CPC needs to be removed from this description. We don't have any role in this. It is we're capitalizing funds and de and and the town not CPC the town by capitalizing is delegating that authority to the commission but we would still be receiving in your reports whatever information showg but we're not making decisions we're not we're not weighing in on specific project decisions we ask for examples so

my understanding neat is this is that it prevents delays on a p a farmland piece of farmland coming up and you got to wait for CPC to approve you know you got to wait for the application CPC got to approve and then you got to wait for town meeting so that could take and give some fun at a time that could be do it much quicker uh so can they name some examples

that because we didn't have a fund did we lose Y um any fine on this? What what did uh a number of years ago John Haran proposed a fund for something I think for the town to purchase land for any reason? I think like that came before us or the Yeah.

Yeah. I think it was came before town meeting.

It was um Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Well, yeah. And I remember I got up at town meeting and spoke against it because um I I he couldn't name one example of the town lost a piece of property because uh you know had to go to town meeting or 161A wasn't involved and the and the article failed. Yeah.

Um yeah.

So you know we're setting up we already have a mechanism to buy farmland. CPC 61A so we're setting up a quicker but can they name examples where it it it didn't work y and then um under item four on page four they talk about credentials they say the CPC will participate in decision to allocate funds from the farmland conservation planning board will participate in decision to alloc gave funds from the

you know uh Dartmouth natural resource will participate. So they'll have to be are they setting up this bureaucracy where they're going to be you know even worse off of where they are where they only had to come to one group or two groups Tom meeting and us that so I think I think what the request would needs to be is to rewrite section the credential section as well and remove DNRT and the planning board and CPC

so that it it aligns um with with and clarify what's the intent, you know.

Yeah.

What's what's the commission intent going to do if they got no if they're only a recommending authority? Uh little well the commission is deciding the the commission is going the extra mile and putting together and an advisory group to its work. So the commission will be the decision-m group by by the by law. do that, right?

So then that's my point. So what's the role of the group of 10?

Yeah. So we can have that clarified if you know the ad commission is helped on buying this bond. Doesn't matter what the 10 think.

I'm just hypothetically I'm not you know I'm not criticizing volunteers.

I'm just saying it's probability is low but I you know I know it's anyway and then I also the um the commitment to a 4-year plan I'm not in favor of.

Mhm.

I can't support funds allocations of funds to be drawn down over a 4-year period. I think we need to me personally I would want to see an application every year. uh what application every well that's something we could discuss.

Yeah, they're asking for $1.5 million this year. The year two they should be asking for 750. Year three, they should be asking.

So I'm just for for and I say that because we are the CPC funds. Who's to say and we have to prioritize things. Yeah.

Who's to say that the Buzzers Bay Coalition or somebody else comes out with a far better project that we want to fund, but we can't because we've already allocated funds uh years in advance. Uh and it may not even be a a farmland. We may decide that, hey, we've got this opportunity to build some um um some housing, some affordable housing, which we haven't done. and this fantastic deal comes down the road

and we can't fund it because we've already allocated funds. It's our decision to so I don't want to I don't want to take that away from us. I'm all in favor of this. Yeah.

But to commit to four years where we don't know what our priority is going to be in two, three, and four. I don't think we should be doing that.

So I want to just thinking about where we are in our process. I want to take what you said and rephrase it as a question to the folks is what so what would be the impact if we did not do a multi-year uh award because we will we will continue this conversation when we next month and I'm not opposed to handing out funds to them every year if it's if if

it's available but I don't know if funds will be available in two But based on our priorities for the year, I have an experience similar to this.

um in another town on a CPC.

Um there was a housing development trust for and um we appropriated money to them and had a consensus on the CPC at a time that we would continue to fund that trust at on an annual basis for a particular amount of money.

Yeah. and and we did over a period of years.

Um and the so I there was a reluctance to commit a future CPC and a future town meeting to appropriate [cough] money. [clears throat] Right.

See, I mean, you it's been done here where you borrowed money and you're essentially committing the taxpayers to phoning up to pay the debt service over future years.

Um, and um, so anyway, it's the it's the question that I think each of us has to answer for ourselves. Is it uh do we do we want to commit a future committee that we might not not be on or where we may have new information?

Yeah.

So I just going to at this stage I just want to phrase it as a question.

Yeah.

Let the so we can get some feedback from the sponsor and then we'll kind of fold that into this conversation.

Um I think it would be important um that this arrange you know the defining what the scope of the work is responsibilities how this is going to work with the an advisory group and things like that need to be worked out. Um my feelings that we that should be worked out um in some kind of anou form with the town before town meeting because if that all falls apart, you know, and those relationships

actually can't get figured out, this fund is gonna is going to flounder.

Um and so um my thing is I wanted to ask is you know if if they can put together anou with the town that really defines the relationships the responsibilities who's going to do what um um and just the basic idea how they're going to entertain proposals.

Um would be good to see that that can be pretty much worked out over the next couple of months. Um because if those things can't be figured out, I I'd like us to avoid the town having kind of sunk a bunch of money into something that can't move.

um that is kind of like caught up in and if we make sure that everybody understands and agrees how they're going to do this, you know, I think a little more comfortable with uh it's a good point sinking money into it.

Yeah.

So, I can I can kind of phrase that.

And I also think that this is one that would be worthy of of sending to town council.

and town council's already weighed in about this being the direction, but just sending this proposal to town council um with any feedback about you know how, you know, where anything else that they think needs to be done to initiate this fun.

And I say that because I don't I'm always a little bit sometimes with these things I'm a little concerned about 11th hour surprises. You know the it's now May and then we find out oh I think there might be a trouble with this.

Let's not let's pull it from the warrant kind of issue.

That always bothers me. It doesn't happen too often but when it does you know that kind of bug bugs me. So I think let's let's flush out any issues now. I don't know if do we I don't think there's [snorts] enough time to do that. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, but I think that's you may see that that you know 3 days before town meeting. Oh, nope. Time out

might not be, but but you know, one one end of it is is just make sure that the council is busy and we don't get a a week turnaround. Um, so I want to see if I can open the door to making sure there's no other issues that the town council might find that should be addressed in going forward with this.

Um, and that opens a a question that I have. So with the ad commission, who would their who would their attorney be? Would they their attorney be town council?

Yeah, I believe so.

There's only one attorney.

Yeah, there's only one.

Well, I know, but we paid the town council.

We're the only commission that can have a separate attorney. No, we can't. We asked that question.

Yeah, they always kind of say we we I thought I thought we we couldn't pursue it. That was that was uh Mr. Cresman's right. I asked that.

That's the last time we did that. We we raised that flag. We couldn't raise it again.

I thought we could. I think I think it's anyway it's a valid question.

Yeah, that's a whole another that's a whole another view that from the town's perspective the ad commission. Would they um would they be able to hire their own attorney or would they have to use ours?

No, they got to use town council.

How come we're different? How come we're because they can't hire anybody? The selectman, they don't have any funds.

They don't have a budget.

Yeah.

The only one that's got a legal the only legal budget in town is the select board.

Yeah.

And they dictate who that now they can hire somebody special. They can hire a special counsel to handle something for the ad commission, but the ad commission can't can't.

Yeah. The previous administrator's view was we do have an administrative budget unlike the ad commission and and therefore we our legal requests are our administrative something unique that a board of commission had is saying, "Hey, we want a special attorney for this review." The town could entertain that and not use right their town council, but that's we the only juris people have jurisdiction

over our legal budget is the select board.

So, we had a rewrite of the description and rewrite of the credential section to take care of these points. Um and um it asks a qu I think it probably is a town council question on what um where where can the CPC in weigh in on APR uh terms and conditions.

I don't know the answer. That's probably a town council kind of question.

Um I don't want any mistakes.

Get examples of um farms that potentially could have been um kept in agriculture would such a fund have been available at the time.

As long as I've been on the CPC, I've never been I I don't recall, hey, you know, here we need some money to purchase this farm. And because we didn't get that town meeting fast enough that the deal fell through.

That's never happened in my tenure.

Any other questions on um need for additional information on this?

Okay. So, I'm going to um tomorrow, I guess there's a lot of questions we have for all these folks, so I better get them to them quickly. Um write these up and then I send off a letter to each of the sponsors with these questions and inviting them to our uh meeting on March 10th, um which will have a public public hearing and such.

Um, could someone let Susan know that she can come back to the table and we're just gonna wrap up?

Yeah.

Or she might have left. If she left, that's okay, too. We still have a quorum.

She's right here.

Okay.

She Thank you.

Invoices.

So, next meeting will be March 10th.

Oh. Um, from the for the proposal.

Yes.

Oh, those um signature sheets that right there. That group. Maybe hand that back. Yeah.

Back this way. Yeah. For her files.

Thank you. Okay. So, uh, wrapping up our meeting. Thank you all um for hanging in there. Um, I don't believe we have any status report.

Oh, we do. Okay. Thank you for reminding me that.

Um, also I checked in. Yeah, Margaret had asked me about where things stood with the home rehab program. So, I did reach out to Cody. he got back to me today. Um that they've got the the forms are back, but um he doesn't he's they need they need the assistant town administrator to be hired in order to have the capacity to launch the program. So, um, that's the next step is get a get an

assistant town administrator and then he's got somebody who can can take the and that typically that's the person who's been doing it. So, that's where we are. That's where we are. Um, and that's I understand that it's almost forward project progress.

It's not I understand that disappoint when was the last time we we let money on.

Yeah.

When the last time we gave somebody some money to put windows up?

Um, probably two or three years.

Probably three years. I mean that's I understand that. Yeah. Go.

We have one project status report um from the cultural center. Um they've been given the 30-year lease effective December 1st, 2025. Their architect is now working on the bid documents.

Um, everything's been delayed. Waiting for the 30-year lease. Um, and that's that's it. Does not mention it.

I'm sorry. What project is that?

This is the cultural center.

Um any on the housing production plan is that we we had a meeting with the planning board and we went through the uh through the whole housing production plan. There were some corrections that um some of the board members thought should be done. Okay. Uh so uh Dan who's going to call um Taylor from SERD and try to go over it. There were a couple of issues that were I think were very important

that the board had um some questions on and Dan is going to talk to Cody about it.

Okay. But it's it's there and we should have it, you know, we're going to have another meeting in another month or so, but uh it it looks good except for these little changes that we needed to make.

You did you see it?

I'm off the email list.

You're off the email list?

When you said you mad at me, I'm like, "Oh, I know about since since Chrisal last got an email about anything."

Very important to have that. Okay.

I appreciate it. Thanks.

I will get that. I got to remember, but I'll get that.

Surprised you didn't get that.

Oh, I didn't know. Sorry.

Okay.

Okay. Um nothing further on the open space um process in terms of I think the next step the town was looking into um how they would um how they would jointly venture um holding restrictions. Um so they see that as a feasible thing to do. Um and but it's interesting so far in these two potential projects um the town is going to be holding the restriction and not and not aware yet that the town though

if that's probably a good question to make sure I should probably add I'll add the question is the town going to hold this restriction or do it jointly uh if they do it jointly they're going to have to have a separate application of that entity for the endowment if they want that but that will have to be at a later town meeting itself. Um okay so next meeting um is March 10th I believe right usually yes

March 10th uh which will have a portion of our meeting will be public hearing um and then we typically take up recommendations for town warrant um after the hearing closes. So then we really talk through these proposals and try to make decisions about how much we what would we recommend to town meeting both in support of and dollar amounts and where you really is that realistic to do all that in one evening.

Um I think we'll give it a shot but um you know we give it a shot but maybe three hours to do.

Listen you more fudge. More fudge. More fud. Yeah. It's a fair question. We're in hour three right now.

Yeah.

I don't have faith we'll be done on March 10th.

Yeah.

You know, if we stay, we may be done on the 11th if we stay through.

I think we'll be done on the 10th.

I'm not staying on the So, practically speaking though, that's interesting because yes, you know, you know, I just we're not going to get it done on March 10th. So I think we should plan and can we wait till April or do we need to plan something or I wonder if we should t let put on the books March 7 10th and the 17th could people do that?

I don't know.

And the 17th is basically our spillover and if we if we don't [snorts] St. Pat's Day brings we'll bring drinks or something.

Um um I think it's a good idea to have a we'll set a set it up for the 17th March 17th if we could do that and you know to look at my calendar.

It'll be at the most it'll be a short meeting St. Patrick's Day. It is if we have to at all.

It is St. Patrick's Day.

Yes.

I don't put it on my Google calendar.

Well, it doesn't I thought it was they know I'm Portuguese it doesn't mean anything to me. Right. So that's what that's everybody's Irish. So, are are we okay shooting for that?

Yep.

We'll set up two meetings, the 10th and the 17th. And the 17th is only if we need it.

Very good.

All right.

Um, can I have a I'll make a motion to second.

Okay. Any discussion? We've had a lot of discussion. Want to talk about that? I don't think so. All in favor? I I believe that unanimous. [snorts] Thank you so much.