Finance Committee Meeting March 26, 2026

I'd like to call the finance committee meeting to order for March 26. Can you stand and join me in the pledge of allegiance?

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Please note that this meeting is in person and is being recorded.

So Gary.

Yes. So uh as you know uh Madam Chair over the last I think it was the March 9th meeting of the select board. Uh Cody had presented uh the long-term proposal for debt. We've been talking about this for quite some time not only on the CIPC but also uh Cody and I have been talking about the longerterm projects. So, um, I thought it would be great if Cody had given a presentation to the committee

and so that we're up to everyone's up to speed on what we look what we're looking at going forward.

Perfect.

Thank you.

Looks good so far.

How does it look?

No debt, no nothing.

Right.

Good. That's good.

Put a lot of work into it.

It's recognizing.

Sorry.

What about the remote? Sometimes you have to broadcast.

There you go. Much better.

It's going to be a great meeting code if you just have to describe it in detail.

Oh yeah.

As you get up there, give that thing a kick on top of this.

I can let me just try one more time. And if not, you can do putting it up on your It's recognizing.

Yeah, it is. Once the screen does that input maybe source, that's good.

Do you want some assistance?

Usually one. It's usually one.

That's great. next door.

That's probably a good idea.

See, it's usually one.

No, sir.

I was thinking, too. I was waiting for them to come in.

Well, I've struggled in that way, but they're probably faster at it.

Can't pay for the internet.

They're much faster at it.

This is just a tactic. We're just John or Brian.

Why don't you plug Yeah, you just plug in John. We're going to plug it in over here. Plug it in. See what happens.

You think it's the laptop, not the That's what I was thinking, Bill.

I think it's the overhead, not the laptops.

Do you agree?

Just give it a kick.

With you off the It's a night where we definitely need the screen for everything we're doing.

I know.

Or we'll just have a lively discussion about something. Well, we could do that.

Okay, here we go.

He just wanted to come in.

Good job, Dan.

He just had to walk in.

Definitely afraid of him.

It's fabulous.

So, I'll note in my version, I had updated it to the uh March 26 finance committee meeting. So, be bear with me on the incorrect date. Um, so what the we've been working on this with our long-range capital planning committee for quite some time. Um the idea is is give you a little introduction of the committee um what those potential projects are review the long-term debt scenario uh what the impact would be on

on taxes essentially um view a high level comparable communities tax rate analysis enterprise fund borrowing and then the total impact on both enterprise fund and general fund.

So um this is who the long-range capital planning committee is made up of. The group's been meeting for about a year, year and a half now. Uh we held three public workshops um throughout the fall, late summer and into the fall. One focused on schools, one focused on public works, and one focused on general government. And so we we've done a survey, we garnered a lot of feedback, and this is how we kind of

came up with these highle recommendations.

So this gives you uh an overview of the general fund projects that are we're looking at for potential borrowing. Uh they that those first three projects are the smaller projects we're going to call them. Um and those are the memorial stadium, the high school roof, and the high school track. We would we would likely go out to borrowing for those first. And also we would likely put

those together. I think we've mentioned before when we when we go out for borrowing, if we borrow a couple million dollars, the rate generally isn't great.

And so we're better off packaging multiple smaller projects. I say smaller because they're still $6 million, but we're better off packaging those and going out for one one bond um and we get a better rate. And so with our AAA bond rating, Gary and I review uh what communities are getting for rates right now for throughout the market. And we feel pretty comfortable we would get around a 3.25% rate with the AAA. I

think it it goes back to why we we're very hesitant to ever dip into our stabilizations and why we want to always show some progression in our stabilizations because the difference between um AAA and double A double A we're seeing 5% interest rates and and while you know on 13 million it's it's sizable but on $150 million school you're talking $50 million of additional interest between a 3.25% rate

and a 5% rate. So we definitely want to keep um our AAA rating. What years are those? I can't read it.

Oh, so so the year for funding, um, we're recommending a 2028, uh, bond for the first three projects, the stadium, the high school roof, and the track. Uh, and then, you know, 2030, we're looking at the need to replace the middle school. I haven't noted as middle school/ high school cuz we don't know what we're going to do yet. It'll be some form of replacing the middle school. That may be actually replacing

what's there. That may be building a new high school and moving the current middle school to where the high school is. But the idea is the middle school.

Uh then you have the recreation center and COA upgrades. Uh and then the next three major projects are replacement of all of our elementary schools. Uh and those are you can see 20 2035 2040 and 2050. Go next.

Oh, go ahead. Can you go back to that? I just curious. Um I'm sure it's been asked, but just the high school track.

Mhm.

Um what's the issue with that? And does it have to be replaced if we're building potentially a new high school in 2030?

And moving the middle school over there.

And you know that's a big unknown, but wouldn't we be throwing money out the window in that case to have a a it's a good first rate track for middle school?

Yeah. Um I don't necessarily think the believe it or not the million dollars doesn't get it to be that like really high caliber track. Um it this has been on CIPC for yeah a long what it does John is it um it's really only repairing the surface.

The problem with the track too the underllayment is kind of old. Uh the base of that is old. So it it looks to replace the base and then and then the surface. But if you looked at the picture that they showed us, it was it's all broken up. And I'm just But the middle school still would be able to use it. And I and the the challenge is also um we likely won't

know a final plan until we get closer to that 2030 mark because MSBA. So the process with that now is the school committee did approve the statement of interest um at their meeting Monday night to move forward with MSBA funding.

That's going to be on the select board agenda for Monday as well. I anticipate that they'll approve that statement of interest. Uh and then we have to get accepted into MSBA. This is a big project, so we might not get accepted like we did the roof in the first round.

Hopefully, we do. But then, like all MSBA projects, you have to have a feasibility study. Feasibility study for a roof is a lot quicker than it is for a whole new building. That will hopefully iron out our options of where we're going to go, whether it's a new high school, new middle school. Um, and this is just something that given it's been on CIPC for at least three four years.

Yeah. Three, four years. And and then why was the recreation center and the COA lumped together? Those are two very different projects.

It's primarily for borrowing purposes again in No, I get that. But you're borrowing the same year and they're listed separately.

I'm just curious why are those listed together? uh because they're both community uh like community focused upgrades is what they're looked at and the COA upgrades we have estimated at 3 to four million. It's primarily made up of the of the recreation center. Uh and so it in doing so that's an you know I looking at that slide I can't see that.

Mhm.

Yeah. The idea so it be nice to have that broken out so we see what the rec center is going to cost and you can still lump them together like you do in the first four.

Yeah, we can definitely do that. I I will say the point of this is very high level because we're at the point where I mean beyond 2030 we we you know it's really a guesstimate at best. Um because I mean the reality is is we could have a um a constituency in town that in 2029 thinks the rec center is priority number one and then these things get shifted. So but we can

break it out for for greater clarity there. Definitely.

Can I ask a question?

Go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, thank you, Bob.

In regards to the term differential in the COA rec department in 2032, is that just for consistency with the amount of borrowing?

It is. Yeah.

For that perspective, kind of it is. Yeah. So, you'll see as well.

Yeah. The 13 million we're recommending a 10-year term and essentially that's just because the amount um and then the the 25 year and and you get a little bit of a better rate obviously if you do a little bit of a smaller term for a project like that. And then once you get to these schools, I mean, you're you're you're you have to go 30 years. Just the the debt service would just be too too much.

Twins still are.

Yes, absolutely.

Oh, go ahead.

So, another reason to split them up is that uh stakeholders because people might be in favor of the rec but not the COA. And I wanted to mention, John, what's been talked about is that there are people in the community that use that track that walk quite a bit on it. So that's another person.

Yeah. No, I'm I'm just asking. I'm not opposed to, you know, it's just I think there's been situations where they've had meets that they couldn't have because of, you know, it's going to be One question I do have is that 3.25. How comfortable are you with that given what may be happening in 2020? Yields may be going up.

So, uh, we get comparison yield reports from other communities that are building projects like this. schools, some are building even municipal buildings.

This is going through what? This bond is being floated through what?

This is um this is conventional borrowing.

Conventional whom who?

Whoever's whoever's available in the market, whoever's available.

Yeah. So, it could be a bank. It could be a lending investment company or whatever.

They're all grade. It's all AAA is AAA. I understand. I just don't know how you got the 3.25. That's like an average of what we're seeing for uh a volume that we're we're borrowing at and um our AAA status amongst the communities that are out there right now going for borrowing. Checking two years out.

Yeah. I mean we could that would probably fluctuate. I mean we would we knock on wood that the rating would stay the same and we're doing everything we can to maintain that. So but that's an average um we look back a couple years uh for AAA status. That amount hasn't really fluctuated that much.

You wouldn't build the name anymore risk 3.2.

Not at this time I wouldn't. But it might have to be looked at in a in a couple years or three years.

This is based on current market conditions. I don't think any of us can accurately determine what rates will be. But yeah, no, this is based on current market conditions, what we're seeing. And yeah, I mean, if Yeah, we could build an a factor in there later on, but um that's what I'm saying. Cody, just a risk factor that may be a little lean as far as the yield on that. Well, we took

an average and so we're seeing some AAA communities borrow for 2.75.

We're seeing some borrow for, you know, 3.5, 3.6. And so 3.25 is kind of right right in the middle right now. And so we have strong typically the larger the volume, the more the better rate you're going to get.

What is that change point as far as the total versus the rate?

You know, what point does it go higher?

What point does it go lower as far as borrowing? There's no set amount. It It's really an It's all based on Yeah. And then it also um we could get premiums on these. So if you get a premium on like on some of these, you book that as as revenue. I think on the master law, you can actually points on your mortgage.

Master lawyer, you can actually use the premium to pay down the debt.

Points on your mortgage, right? It's variable.

Get the premiums, right?

Variable.

Yeah.

And market driven.

Yeah. So typically once you get over that $10 million mark, there's some some stability. Mo right now less than 10 million you have a hard time getting a decent rate.

What if it's 20 or 30 I guess is my point.

Not a huge difference once you get over that 10.

If you're talking 100 million. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. But but it's really the the you're not seeing a significant market for five$6 million projects and that's when the rate is a lot higher.

This is another reason to collapse that recreation center or the COA together.

At least get the volume to 30 but separated in the presentation.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Great stuff. Could you uh just add along the same thought if you collapsed it all then I guess you couldn't vote on it though that would be so collapsed all that stuff in the in the one you could I I don't the debt service um off the bat would be significant um and I I don't I mean I don't know if it would get approved me I think even some of these you know are

going to be a challenge to begin with but I think if we went forward with a a uh a debt exclusion for, you know, $400 million. We may have a Oh, you mean in town?

Yeah. Right.

Didn't we have this discussion at the meeting the other day?

Yeah. Yeah.

Not everywhere in one ear and out the other.

Not everyone can afford to pay.

Yeah. And so we'll get into that in the next slides what that actually means.

And so next slide, Gary. So here's exactly what that means. And this it's a little bit small on here, so I apologize, but this was emailed to all of you previously, so you should have it. Um but you see in 2028 which is the those three projects that we proposed putting together this our annual debt service based on those terms as I had mentioned before and a 3.25% 25% rate, our debt service is about $1.5 million.

And then in 2030 is when you add the middle school replacement, um, our debt service goes to about $9.5 million a year. And then you can see as we add more projects, your annual debt service payments increase. Uh, and then as projects begin to drop off, you know, the debt service decreases. So you see, for instance, in 2038 is your first drop off because that 10-year borrowing for

the 13 million drops off. Um, and then you add the Potter or DLO school uh in 2040, you add another school in 2045, and then you reach your peak uh in 2050 when essentially you have debt for all of these projects. And our debt service is significant at, you know, $21.5 million. Uh, and then you start to drop off again as all those projects drop off. And that's why I say

uh going from a essentially a Z debt service to a 21.5 million debt service to the voters. I'm not sure if that would be successful.

So what's our current debt service right now on an annual basis? About 900 some thousand.

Yeah.

And what's the balance on that?

Those all fall off over the next um I would say the average probably about uh 14 million. Remember most of that is the um police station. So 14 million and we're paying 900 grand annually on a $14 million mortgage.

Yeah, that would be uh well we've already paid off some of that. So 2030 uh 2020 2032 I think is the last I don't have to go and look.

Awesome. Thank you.

So as we get closer along further along that's even becomes less and less down.

So this is I think one of the most um telling pieces is this is what the impact would be on a fisc and this is based on today's numbers right so average uh home assessment and single family home assessment in Dartmouth is $657,47 average tax bill being $5,276 so based on that this is what your impact would be to to that resident and so obviously if your home has a higher

value the impact is higher you your home has a lower value the impact is uh lower. And so that first year of borrowing, which is those those three school projects, it's a little less than $100 for the average resident. Uh once we once we have to borrow for a middle school, that goes up to $617.

Then we borrow for the COA and recreation center programs and you go up to another, you know, $110 and you get up to almost $730. 2035, it's up to $1,000 per resident. 2038, some of that debt begins to drop off. And so you have it goes down to a little less than $890.

And then again, you add this another school in 2040, another school in 2045, another school in 2050, and it it peaks, like I said, in 2050 at a little over $1,400 for the average resident. And then as the debt begins to fall off, um you're it decreases the debt exclusion amount on the average resident. and now and down to $0 in 2080 because you borrow for the last school in 2050

30-year bond. 2080 is when that falls off.

So these are obviously large numbers that people will get a little sticker shock over.

I think to put it into context, an important similar graph to make is, you know, one, these projects aren't going away with maybe the exception of the rec center. Mhm.

Um but we we will have to replace schools. We will have to at one point in time they're not going to last forever in other words. Right. So I think if we can make this same graph but shift the timeline further to the right and show with the escalation rate that we're considering that that is currently forecasted what those numbers would become is a telling telling information because

you shift that five years to the right and your $1,400 peak is going to become a $1,800 peak. Mhm.

Right.

Or or or something along those lines.

And that that I think helps provide context of yes, this is these are large numbers, but they're only going to get larger if we kick the can.

Yep. Absolutely. It's a good point.

Mhm. And so, and then just on the right there, you can see those are the projects that we're talking about um funding through through this debt. Next slide. So, one of the things that we hear is um you know, the tax rate obviously is always a concern. fire tax is separate here in Dartmouth, which is very unique. Um, you don't see that often in most communities. And so what

we did is we wanted to put that into perspective, including that fire tax because that's that's important.

Everyone has to pay it. Depending on what district you're in, it changes.

based on our our average um the current tax rate of $8.3 per thousand of comparable communities, which comparable communities were derived looking at budget size, state aid calculations. Um there's a whole we'll get to that after this, but it's it's not just saying, okay, we're like Westport, we're like New Bedford. It's it's more bigger picture. Um geography plays some role, but those really aren't our comparable

communities. And so we look at more of the financial piece for our comparable communities. what you see of those communities, the average tax rate is $10.63 per thousand, meaning that we we could do an override of $26.2 million and that would get us to that average tax rate. So, if we increased our tax levy by $26.2 million, we would then just be at the average of those comparable communities. We wouldn't be

over it. We would just be exactly at that. Um, that's a good point to make.

Higher district rates included because that's a important piece. Obviously, each each district has a different rate.

Uh so based on district one, the total rate is 851 per thousand. District 2 is 906 per thousand. And district 3 is 8.82 a,000. Still all three of those, even your highest being um in district two, you're significantly less than the comparable communities tax rate of 1063 per thousand.

And so this is the breakdown of some of those communities. And so, you know, tax rate, population, tax levy, uh, state aid, total budget size are are factors that we looked at. And so, um, you'll notice Dartmouth has the, uh, one of the lowest rates. Uh, what I used for the tax rate was the average of all three districts. And so, because you can't there's no there's no single number to

utilize. So, we took the total rate with the fire districts and took an average.

And so, that's how you get $8.80 per thousand because it's an average. What would be the purpose of showing this?

Uh to show that we are we have a very low tax rate.

It's it's you know comparable to the rest of the Commonwealth and what the services are being provided. It's a it's a very low tax rate and that even with going out for these projects, the debt, we could still be significantly under what tax rates are in in other communities.

I I I don't know. I have problems with that. Oh, sorry.

No, I was going to say Cody, I'm looking at this, too. I also I see Andover, I see Dubberry. I see Milton. I mean their per their per capita income is a lot higher than than Dartmouth and I would presume that their housing is a lot higher.

Some of it is some of it is.

I know Andover is.

Yeah, some of it is. But I'll say there is a um uh a reliance to accept that we are a lot like some of those communities.

So I'm not a fan of this comparable chart either for a variety of reasons.

And I didn't I was going to look I didn't have time. you know which of these communities have a split tax rate because I think that makes a big difference. We we tend to forget that in Dart that we have a split tax rate in the commercial% more about 70% of these have split tax but I find that not to be comparable as soon as they you know have are not the

same as us in regards to our low tax rate because the commercial side is picking that up. The other part of that is um yes, you added the fire tax. Of course, that's great. But we don't know which one of these towns, and I know it's rare in Massachusetts, have full-time fire employees because that adds a lot to their tax rate.

Mhm.

We are blessed with a volunteer service and paying three chiefs.

Yes.

So, I just look at things like that and say, is it really comparable?

Well, but we can't get into the operation of each town. I know what you're saying, but you can make the same argument just low.

But you can make the same argument. Do they have the same size police department as us? Do they have do they offer these services? I I think that is I think that's important as well.

Yeah, we I I don't disagree with you.

We're never going to be able to do an analysis.

No, no, I know. I'm just saying I think it's too general of a statement to say, well, we need to pay more because look at what else.

The point of this is not we need to pay more. The point of this is to show we could invest in our community. No.

And still have a rate that is I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying I don't find it to be the best argument.

So it's not an argument. It's fact. I'm just all we're doing here is you're going to find what Gary and I present is not to say you should do this, not to say you shouldn't do this. These are the facts.

May I make a point? One of the reasons I think it's helpful is that um so many people complain about the the cost of the taxes in this town almost like they don't know people who live in other towns and what they pay.

I agree Terry that's a fair statement.

Yeah. Point. So if I Oh sorry.

Oh go.

Um I might suggest that you qualify the chart. I love the chart. I absolutely love the chart. If you qualify it as the characteristics of Dartmouth, the fire, we've averaged it. Take the nuances to Dartmouth. Throw out the high, throw out the low, and you know, combine it. Great. Throw out a couple. You still Dartmouth is very, very well known from an outsider. I know I'm a washure.

Everyone tells me how much I'm a washure.

Very well known to have the lowest tax rate around. and the services you get in this community. I was in heaven when I moved in. My tax rate was nothing.

Okay.

And now it's catching up and I'm like finally, finally. So I love the chart.

It provides analysis. It brings us into the 25th century or whatever we're in with respect to municipal services and the cost municipal services in the year 2027. And we are really behind in my opinion from your next few charts which are your enterprise funds. So we're going to ask the community Dartmouth one for all of this together. Let's show what everybody else is doing just for a point. People

don't have to buy the chart, but thank you for presenting it.

Yeah. Go ahead. I like the chart, too. I think it's great. And and I think I asked for something similar, you know, at least I think I did in my head. Um just so that to raise awareness in town, you know, why where we're at, where where we're going. Um I would I know that you didn't choose some local communities like Westport, Fair Haven, but I do think that it's valuable to

throw it in there just so because it's what people around here know. You put some of the towns on here. Locals aren't necessarily familiar and to them it could be Greek. Um, so just having like more local comparisons so they understand um that I mean I agree that's why I moved here. I moved here because our taxes are low. Um, and our taxes have remained low for 20 over 20 years that

I've lived here. And I appreciate that, but I also appreciate roads that don't have huge potholes, schools that are well funded, and police force and fire force that is fully staffed. So, you know, there's got to be a good in between.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we can certainly do something like that, right?

I think if you're going to use this, you have to explain the nuances of why it's up there like you did.

Yeah, sure.

I'll I'll mention this is not meant to be utilized to get voters to vote for a debt exclusion. The idea of this is this has never been presented um with the exception of a few years ago at a high level to get people to start thinking about it. So, this is all great dialogue and great feedback. It's not meant to be perfect at this point. It's meant to start the conversation.

It's great because it really hasn't been Yeah.

Right. It came out of long range planning because it's it's really never been a we we should be doing something like this every couple years.

All I'm saying is if you're going to use this, you have to explain why it's up there because my first reaction looking at this would be to well because I don't know my background would be where's what what how does what is this tied into in terms of the objectives of the town? Uh, I I don't think I agree with Cody in that we know Dartmouth's. We know all of

what goes into it for Dartmouth. We have no idea what goes into it for the other towns. We would have to go around and interview every town to say, you know, this is what you get for your money.

Yeah, clear indication.

That's a good point because a lot of we don't know the intrinsics of all these towns. So, you put up something like that, it may be accurate, may be fine.

It depends on what you want to establish as a point, right?

Yeah. I can I I can bet you if you put all 351 communities up on a chart, you're going to see do this is probably 20th.

But again, what's the purpose?

Well, then you're looking at the entire state.

So, still what's the purpose at that point?

Well, to understand the value that you're getting for services, right? So, if you looked at the entire chart and all the all the data and you would still see that we're top, you know, probably top at the bottom at the bottom. So, um, I think pulling these out just maybe gives a little bit of a snapshot, but it doesn't, you know, I I mean, yeah, we run all the run all the communities. You're going to see

Dartmouth at$80. Obviously, you're going to have Nucket up there at a $150, but the the values of the homes are $2.5 million, you know. So, these are all it's you're never going to find a town that's completely compared comparable to to us. That that's almost impossible.

They'd have to have districts. They'd have to have uh, you know, sewers, water and sewer rates that are that are separate. They'd have to have split tax rate. They have to have the same budget, population, a university, a jail. These are all things that that I mean there isn't probably another town that exists like that in the community in Massachusetts, but running all the communities and looking at it, you can

see that we're still at the bottom.

This answers the question of why do people say Dman's taxes are low?

But what what difference does that make?

What why I mean, if you're going to raise taxes, then you should have objectives of why you're raising their taxes.

Well, that's a separate thing. I think that this is all I'm asking is if you're going to put this up here, I think you have to explain why it's up here.

I think Brian has a fair point. Brian is basically saying whenever you show something to somebody, you have there's a purpose to it, right? There's an objective. There's a reason that you're showing it. So then just clearly state your objective when showing this.

Explain why you're showing it, right?

And then that way, that's all I want. I mean, I don't know what to make of this when I see it.

Oh, but that's that's why I'm here giving you a presentation. This isn't meant to be. But that isn't when you first put the chart up until we started nitpicking it.

Yeah, but this isn't meant to be a standalone document. This is meant to be a presentation.

That title, comparable community.

Yeah, we understand why you put it up there.

But yeah, we can run the we can run the whole Commonwealth and you'll see that we're still still at the bottom. Forget the risk. Forget the factors.

This is common is still low. Now that means different things to different people obviously you know but to quantify it that number that tax rate is one of the lowest man however you want to quantify it it's just important like so understand Brian because I'm right there with you it's like okay believe it but so what it's providing context to what we're talking about in the context of capital

planning and and the cost of taxes to to to pay for these these units and I think what gets people uh passionate about the idea of comparable community and and rightfully so is that you we shouldn't try to match the tax rate of say Mhm.

North Attboro just for the sake of matching the tax rate.

You shouldn't be trying to match and we're and and I don't think that's what we're trying to do here. We're just showing the context.

That's all we're doing is showing the context.

It's not saying we ought to have an $1158 tax rate just so we can be the same as Randolph. I think that's what it sends not random.

I think that's the message that heard sometime the intent of the of the message context.

I don't think that it sends that message in my brain. I think it re it tells me where are we compared to other similar cities and towns within Massachusetts.

How are we on the tax scale? Are we already way up here or are we way down here? Where are we? That's that's what it tells me.

But the point being to all this is that we have projects coming up.

Yeah. and we may be invariably having to go up taxes. So, but I would be less likely to vote yes.

Kind of irrelevant and immaterial in a way, but I can see comparisons. But in a way, we're saying, "Hey, we need these projects and all to do this, we have to Exactly. We have Exactly."

Yeah. But I think if we were if we were high up on the tax rate, right, if we were already like up really high compared to that Hold on, let me finish.

Let me finish. Let me finish. Men, thank you.

If we were already high up on that tax rate and then we tried to do an override, I'm going to say no. I'm going to be like, we're already too high. But if we're kind of in the middle or down low and we put ahead an override, I'm going to probably say, okay, that's fair.

See, I'm more like not, but that's what I would say in my head.

I would vote for something if I knew we needed it. I don't care what's happening in So the roof is leaking. All right.

That's critical, right?

Yeah. whether you were gonna go in the hole on this.

I think if you had a house, your house, and you need a new roof, you're gonna have to guess what?

Yeah. You need a new roof.

That's right.

Yeah.

You need a new school.

These are all really good points.

This is the point. This is a good dialogue before we get to the point of right presenting these things and we can make adjustments of what we think, you know, the community um will will benefit from.

But I do think there is people do say they compare themselves to others, right? Just like compensation is a good example of this. compensation. You don't want to be 90% of comparable communities. You don't want to be 30%.

You want to pay people where they should be. And if you don't, what are you gonna do? You're going to go find a new job somewhere else.

And and while bouncing between communities isn't quite as easy if you own a home. You may say, "Well, geez, if I'm paying this and dy now, I'm not going to pay this anymore. I'm going to move to another community."

Well, wait a minute. I'm not going to move to another community because I'm still paying lower taxes. but also the real estate agents and the real estate values and the reason why we're a minimum community is because the value of our real estate and all the real estate agents are looking at this number and saying don't go to Westport because you're not going to get X but if you go to Y.

So it's it's it's like the plus or minus when the per pupil cost comes up. That's a plus or minus 75% here or there or that's a plus or minus depending if you have foreign language at an elementary level or if you're it's variable, but it's great information for various contexts for people that might enjoy looking at it.

The secondary slide I do is regional because then they're going to go, "Oh, that's this is pretty cool. Oh, but then look at regional. Now I've got two data points. I can go like that.

So if you're a geek, you like the slide.

If you're not, you can we could spend hours.

I I withdraw my remarks other than to say if you're going to put this up, you you should have some context of why you put totally fair remarks.

What?

Why withdraw your remarks? They were very salient.

Well, I also think the benefit I also think the benefit of this com conversation is like usual, we're representing the town meeting. These are the things that might come up at a town meeting. So people know to be prepared for that. That's all I just I don't mind showing the chart cuz it's just natural. People compare people compare guns, people compare houses, people compare job salaries.

It's just natural.

I think it's important hopefully people re understand what's going on if they've traveled anywhere in the state. I'll pick the first the the lowest one at the beginning. What is it? Falmouth. Mhm.

5.73.

Uh my $800,000 home, if I tried to buy that in Fmouth, it's probably $1.8 million.

That's my point.

So, I'd be paying probably double more than double the taxes in Fmouth versus Dmouth. So, good point.

I don't mind showing it, but you really got to understand what's going on here.

Um the low tax rate doesn't mean you're paying less in taxes than what I am in here in Dartmouth. You know, it's the value of your home. Um and some of these towns are location, you know.

Go to the next slide. Next slide.

Okay.

Okay. Now, we're going to move on to the enterprise fund projects. So, this is primarily made up of uh water and sewer.

What you see is um you'll you'll notice a 2% rate for these because we're able to borrow potentially through the clean water trust. It's a state revolving fund um where two it's it's borrowed to municipalities for these types of projects at a lower rate. Um and so what you see is is this is the more um this is the near-term projects. We're going to recommend borrowing this year

actually for these and that is for water infrastructure upgrades. This is primarily made up of the Route Six uh water mane. The Masdot will be doing the work on Route Six um to redo the whole Fon Corner Road up to Tucker Road and Hathway Road intersection finally. And so our water main needs to be replaced there. It makes sense to coincide with the mass dot project. We could wait um

but it's going to cost us a lot more money in a couple years when it has to be done. So it makes sense to to move forward with it now. the water treatment uh upgrades and pump stations. This is primarily so you've heard us talk about we need a new uh sewer treatment plant.

Um and I think one of the things that we need to clarify is when we say new new sewer treatment plant, we do not mean build a new sewer treatment plant in somewhere else in town. That is is likely to be a significant rehab of what's there and expansion. And so we we um fully designed an irration project um that would be part of the upgrades for a new sewer treatment plant. We have 100%

design. We've also received a couple hundred,000 in grant funds to pursue the construction of that. That's estimated to be about a $7 million project and that is something that we can move forward with now. It'll allow for greater capacity, greater efficiency in the plant. Um and it it just makes sense to do it now. Costs are only going to increase of that portion of the project.

It'll also help to decrease the cost of the total plant that's going to be done likely you see in here 2031 2032 time frame. Uh so those are the two near-term projects paid directly out of the enterprise funds. Then you have just general water treatment upgrades. This consists of um a lot of different water projects. Uh they have valves that need to be replaced. We have a a um we have

an issue with a couple of our wells where we actually could be pumping those wells, but the pipe size isn't big enough to have multiple wells on at the same time. And so we need to upgrade the size of those pipes because right now we can't have two two of the specific wells running at the same time because the the pipes aren't big enough to get to the treatment plant. So um that are those

are some of the upgrades that are included in that project. Um, and then the water the the wastewater treatment plant as I was mentioned. And then as we get into 2035, we have general infrastructure repairs that need to be made across the board. We have some of these um tanks that you see in order to rehab and paint one of those tanks. It's about $3 million. And we have several of

those tanks throughout town. We want to make sure we're keeping up with those.

Um, and then just general, you know, infrastructure. We have significant portions of line that need to be replaced are going to need to be replaced. So that's that's tied into that general $20 million there.

Question.

So you hear when you listen into different public meetings in different context that the the capacity of our wastewater treatment plant is an impediment to new growth. Um you know we're adding on charges to different developments because they're overt tax they would overt tax our system. Um how we're talking about a fiveyear horizon for starting that. How so we've started what is the consequence of waiting five

more years and is it possible at all in any way to expedite the design process or whatever precursors go to to starting construction?

Yeah, it's a good question. Um so the 2031 would be construction right that this would be the year that we borrow for construction. um building a new wastewater treatment plant is incredibly comprehensive and so phase one is actually called a comprehensive wastewater management plan that's required by the state um D and we bid that out uh in the fall. We had two respondents and we just awarded the

contract today to complete that process.

That's about a two-year process uh and and primarily made up of all the data they have to collect, but also then has to be adopted by the state. So we anticipate between now and two years is we get that completed and then it's approved by the state. Then we move into actual design phase. You can anticipate design phase being about a year a year and a half to fully you know design bid

documents. Um and then we would move into right con, you know, construction phase. And so you're looking at you know it's 2026 now we're going into fiscal 27. So I'm going to call it early 27.

You're in 29 before you start design.

you're in 30 when you when you finish the design. So, you likely go for borrowing in 31. So, that's and that is unfortunately these are things that maybe should have been done previously.

Um, but we are in the we are expediting it now. I mean, the wheels don't turn super quick unfortunately. But that's that's why I really think there's an emphasis on the aeration project, the $8 million project up there because it it gives us some capacity. It creates efficiencies and it's not and it's going to be part of whatever we do anyways.

And so, not only does it keep that, we know construction costs continue to rise. So, if we can take an $8 million portion out of that and do it at today's value, it's only a win and and create the efficiencies.

I highly agree with that, Cody.

Can I follow up on that with respect to the capacity discussions?

So, at the meeting this morning where the wastewater um RF Q was awarded to go into a fee proposal um there's a lot of conversation about capacity with respect to betterment fees that were paid unhooked that have to be considered capacity encumbered if you will. um a lot of discussion with if in fact they have to quote unquote overbuild because they have to take that betterment capacity into effect which is what

you're hearing is we're over capacity because the betterments that were paid that were paid to hook up now D or some of the conversations are you don't have to consider that capacity when building and yet when someone comes in and says wait a minute now I want to hook up well now we don't have capacity yet you've already paid the betterment so there's a lot of discussions questions about those

kinds of opinions, those legal opinions.

D has their opinions. So, I think the capacity issue is an important one that should be kind of clarified moving forward.

Yeah, the capacity issue is complex, incredibly complex. Um, where are our current and short-term capacity issues lie are more with our pump stations than the plant. The plant is is really up there. It's getting up there. So I I I'm not I don't mean to diminish that, but the um the significant issues are our pump stations. You know, pump stations were designed only for a signific uh a

specific amount of flow in in certain areas. And so certain areas with some of these larger developments are going to push the flow of those pump stations beyond what they can do. And that's that's really the more imminent challenge that we're facing. Um, and then does that push our treatment plant over on certain days? And so the way that we view capacity at the sewer treatment plant isn't the way you

typically would view capacity of something. You would think, okay, we can we can treat x amount of gallons per day. We're currently at average 60, you know, let's say we can treat 100 gallons a day. We're at 60. That means we have 40 gallons a day. No, the D doesn't view it that way. And that's how we have to view it. They take a rolling average of a year long in in and 80%

is actually your threshold. So you don't go over 100%. Anytime you go over 80% of the treatment plant's capacity, they flag that as you've gone over. And so they then look at how many times you went over in a year and if it reaches a certain threshold, they basically say, "Okay, you have to upgrade your sewer treatment plant." There are days where we go over now um and obviously that'll

that'll go up as we add uh these these projects especially with the but the but the average but the average and that's that's why I think there's maybe some frustration people have asked well what actually how much capacity do we actually have left and it's not a straightforward answer of we have 20% capacity left because it's it changes when we have a lot of rainfall for instance that we typically

go over our capacity because you have INI that goes into the plant and it goes in. So, it's really complex. Um, but it is a concern, but the the short-term concern is the is the pump stations.

Do we have any um plan at all or you know, maybe a plan going forward in the next few years as far as public education regarding all of these projects and the amount of money? Um, I mean it is a good rate through that fund if we're able to borrow through that, but looking at some of the potential increases on water and wastewater. I mean, people are kind of already up in

arms with recent increases and then those are very significant. And I mean, not that it's a town thing, but other utilities, gas, electric, we're getting whacked there, too. And I feel like every time you turn around, you're getting hit in the wallet. And when these increases that are proposed for, you know, water and sewer come, it's just going to be like a a massive outcry. And if we can kind of get ahead

of it and say these are the reasons why and what we're trying to do to mitigate things for the future, I think that might help to kind of ease the burden or at least give awareness um for the future.

Yeah. I mean, we're trying to get information out and be as transparent as possible. I mean, hence why we're starting with this. We did this at a select world meeting. We're doing it at a finance committee meeting. um you know it's there's no perfect way because I'll say we did the public workshops in the fall and combined of the three workshops I think we had about 20 people attend and

then you and then you say okay well they're recorded people must be watching them on YouTube they're not you know they have maybe a couple hundred views collectively and it's been about 6 months so um and I'm not saying that we can't do more we will do more but we're up against a challenge I mean I'll give you the example we we've been we talked um quite in depth about the rate the

midyear rating increase that we were going to have to uh incur as of January 1st. We talked about it at these meetings. We talked about it at select board meetings. We talked about it at Board of Public Works meetings. We did videos on it. We posted information on our website. I can't tell you the amount of people we've gotten. We had no idea this was happening.

Oh, yeah.

And so, um Yeah. I mean, and that's why I say if anyone has ideas, like I I don't we don't claim to know know everything.

People still don't realize that they switched to quarterly billing, right? So when the so when they got their recent bills there was a giant outcry because I I don't know what the secret is to communication in this town unless you plan to do a doortodoor knocking campaign.

I don't I don't answer the door.

Well that's true.

But but we do want to give as much advanced notice as possible. Um and I think that's why we're doing these things. You know we're doing the citizens academy. It all ties back because these are the things we're going to talk about in the citizens academy and hopefully get people to understand, oh wow, we there's actually a reason for this. Like the town isn't just being frivolous. There's a real reason why we

have to raise rates. Uh and word of mouth is probably one of the best communication methods we have. So we start with a group of 25 people in the citizens academy. They go home, tell their friends, their family, and and and then it's a chain reaction where hopefully at least people get a little bit more interested and then maybe watch those videos. And I don't know, maybe maybe I'm naive. The

other thing too, I was um I was here yesterday at the clerk's office and I was looking at the sample ballot and there are so many town meeting member spots that are open and people just don't you know sign up to run for these spots and you know if you want to have a say in town join the town meeting isn't it? You know it is it's much better to complain on

it's only twice a year you know so is I think a key I mean just in terms of public outcry over the the magnitude of the rate increases I think and this goes back to what you guys had told us earlier is when we had a period of time when there was you know six five six years of no rate increases you know we we we can't do that like we we have to

you avoid shock if you can gradually keep things level if if I would rather have my bill go up 2 and a half to 3% a year consistently, then all of a sudden in the year 2026, I'm getting a 13% hike, right? So, making sure that we're keeping a close eye on that and and and having consistency um over the course of time is better than spikes, right? And I mean, we're

again, we're the bills are all coming due at the same time, so we're going to have spikes is is the unfortunate reality. Um but yeah. Yeah.

Trying to find a way to to even out the the growth over a long period of time is in my mind the better way to be great to figure out a way to do that.

Like just the suggestion that you made about this is what it costs today, this is what it's going to cost in 5 years.

It helps people understand and and I think even town meeting members I'm thinking about one of the meetings that we had where somebody stood up and said why can't the DPW fix the high high school roof.

I know why they say that but they it's because they really don't understand what's involved. They question you know they compare these buildings to their own houses. My house is overund years old. Why you know why did we have to do this with these? It's little by little to educate people and explain to them.

And it would be great for all of us even to have the bullet points, the talking points like this is so that when people ask us questions, one of the reasons I ask is people ask me a question, I'd like to answer it. No.

Yeah. The idea for this is once this rolls out, if it when it does roll out, is to um keep debt service pretty pretty flat. um not only for the rates for water and sewer but if we do a borrowing we don't want to have you know we're putting two or three projects on it looks like you know Mount Everest we want to have things that go along and I

mean as it comes down obviously we have little debt now so you see that big slope downward but the idea is to have the somewhat level going forward so that it's an easier impact on the residents so the 105 and the 10 million five in 2027 is going to be for rateayers only and do we have a percentage of rate payers Which one was that? Dedra 10 million.

Percentage of residents that are rate payers.

Yes.

Um first two I mean we we do but it's different for each right. So some people in town only have water and don't have sewer. Some have both. Um and so it's we we can look and see like parcels based on how many accounts. So for instance we have about um 9500 water accounts. So you know we have a rough idea of water. We can look at sewer. Um, yeah, it's not going to be it's not

going to be perfect to the decimal point, but we can give an average.

I'm sorry. Just want to clarify. It's the first two items on the chart that you added together.

Uh, yes. Okay. No, 10 million.

There was some confusion at the other end of the table.

So, I'm rolling debt in my head saying, "All right, so if we're paying 900,000 on 14 million and then so I'm just doing data in my head. So, we're going to do 10,500 next year for the enterprise funds for rate payers only of which some percentage are water and some percentage are sewer.

And then so this shows you the debt service by year. Um this is just water enterprise funds. So that first slide was water and sewer. This is just the water enterprise fund based on those projects. So if we borrow the 2.5 million um you can see the debt service on that's about 278,000.

that would result in a 4% rate increase to cover um that those payments. Then you can see in 2030 um uh you have the water treatment and that is 15.1% rate increase. Again, that that's if you didn't do anything over time to make up for that. That's the rate that you would need at that year to pay just for the debt service going forward. So to Nate's point, ideally you you don't wait. And

so when we when we look at and Gary and I have already begun this for for July, what is the rate percent increase needed to cover the operating budget? What is the percent needed to cover capital? And we'll we'll describe those as separate, but essentially it's going to be one rate increase. So we may be saying, okay, we need a 7% rate increase to cover operations, and then we need to

buffer another 3% to start building capacity for capital projects and or debt as we go forward. And so that we want to make sure we do that um strategically and then in 2035 an additional three and a half% for that additional infrastructure and like like the general fund that starts to drop off and obviously the debt service payments fall. Go to the next slide.

So I was going to ask uh refresh my memory probably mentioned before what this is residential. What would be the average say water bill of a of a resident in a town? I know that's all over the map.

I can imagine but I'm just trying to Yeah, I'd have to get you everybody.

I'd have to get you revised data because I I don't have it since we've gone to quarterly and with the increased rate.

So, when we did the increased rate, we were basing it off of um the twice a year billing and then basically split, you know, took an average annual and divided that by four. So, I don't have that right now, but when we go forward that we'll certainly get talk about increases, I'm just trying to put what the base might be and then how much of an impact that would be.

Yeah, the the rates. It's a good point and we want to do that and we've had requests for that. Um the only the only concern is like Janine said, water bills are and sewer bills are very different and so you have some people so the average may not accurately depict.

No, I don't know what the average would be when I see what people posted over the last frenzy on Facebook. It was some of those bills were like you have some on I was shocked. So, so um we can do that.

What we thought a better tool is is to provide what that percent increase would be. So then you can actually take your bill and say, "Okay, right now I pay $200. I know looking at a 4% increase. Now my bill is going to be $28."

So, and we can we can we'll do calculators and things like that. Um that's useful for people.

It's hard with a there's a lot of dires in in getting the average for for water. But that question might Oh yeah. Yeah. It has been and we we we'll plan to have some example with the caveat.

Take it for what it is.

Terry, couple years ago for people who are not on town sewer, the title five regs were changing. People were very worked up about that. The town did some workshops on it. Has there been any planning at that time? I know that people were talking about trying to figure out a way to pull those people into the water planning and have them pay some fee, kind of general fee to

have them buy in so that then the town could help them when they have to replace their septic systems. Has that just dropped off the radar because that's not No, we're still aware of it. We have conversations. Um it the the problem we've discussed behind the scenes is it we don't know if we'd have the buy in.

we we probably wouldn't have the buy in because it would be the cost is significant there. It it really is significant and um if you're not forced to do it, right?

People don't want to spend the money.

Um when I think about long-term planning, we don't have town sewage down there as a as a town, you know, to expand it at all.

Mhm. Yeah.

We don't have I don't have water either.

Okay.

Yeah. No, I mean what the options now if you wanted to expand sewer is you can either petition um everyone who it would affect um in the expansion you need at least twothirds of of those that are affected.

It then goes to the select board. The select board essentially requests the DPW engineer the engineer it and get a cost estimate. Um and then they they can petition to appropriate the money through Betterment. Um, and it would be paid through Betterment, but we still would have to essentially borrow or appropriate the money. Uh, or residents can work with DPW through the same petition process and and basically pull

their resources and pay for their own design and then pay for their own construction.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's been communities where um same same as Dartmouth, some community some residents are on uh water and sewer, some residents aren't. Uh, and it was um proposed that those residents that weren't on water and sewer pay the bill and it got very ugly.

Sorry. They were asked to pay the bill when they didn't have water or sewer.

Yes. There have been communities in in Massachusetts and across the country really that have that have it's gone down that road where they've um because they tapping from the same aquifer the argument was made and um it's from the studies that I've done it's really gone gone nowhere.

Yeah. People who live in Dartmouth uh Dartmouth Woods is it called pay water sewer.

They all pay water sewer. Um where is that woods on the rent? So you're paying 2,000 a month for rent and then you're paying water sewer, you're paying electric.

I think I think context is good for people to know what what people are spending. So, I was part of that change when uh sewer got put into over by UMass because I had to go through the betterment process. And it makes me think about future planning for something like that, you know.

That was a reaction. I mean, it's good that it didn't follow through and and everybody had to do something about it, but it was kind of scary when we were talking about it. Yeah, I think those conversations will likely um excel once we have a definitive plan for our treatment plant.

Town doesn't have much of an appetite to extend right now due to we don't really have capacity. And then and also in the pump stations we're looking at with a lot of places where we have to or looking to um extend. You're either looking at new pump stations or upgrading the pump stations that are there. Yet the challenge with that being if you upgrade a pump station as a result of an additional development, we

cannot just charge that developer for that upgrade cost.

But you could negotiate that before they build. You could say you can, but they but they can tell you no.

And the only the only way the only legal requirement is that they pay their portion and that's that's the challenge that we faced.

about that a lot and and I wondered somebody at the candidates tonight said that we should be taxing people who own the complexes as a business. What did that mean? Is that a commercial rate instead of resial? Is that a possibility? No. So, um we've we've had this conversation with the assessor's office and uh the way they're taxing them now like the uh unit on um is a million too.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Delano Delo. Um the uh the way that they're taxing is uh um they're not they're all individual units, you know. Um and there's I think there is a petition right now in Mass General law to change that um to go because we're losing money on this on the value. The comment that was made was and it's it's a valid one. You know, we we got this large commercial property

valued at um I think the example was given let's say it's a million dollars.

And if you split that up into let's say I think the example was three three family homes the total of those three value family homes would be a lot more than a million dollars.

So the argument is well the towns and cities in Massachusetts are losing revenue because of that.

Right.

So yeah and we've discussed that we've actually had the board of assessments but that would take change at the state level to to to make that adjustment. you know, but they do pay they do pay um you know, Terry's right that if you're paying the $2,000 rent, you got the utilities that go along with that. You've got a lot of additional costs.

I hope that whatever uh negotiating can be done upfront is being done. I don't I'm not I don't know how the process works, but when people come in to get permits and um sit down and start having conversations, I hope people are saying, "Well, you know, if you put this amount in, it would make it a lot easier for for neighbors."

We have those conversations.

Unfortunately, um developers know that they are not forced to and they take advantage of that situation. And so it's a challenge that we faced and and and we have a hard time swallowing it too because if we have to upgrade a pump station for instance we don't want to have to say okay this new complex is only going to account for 20% of the flow through that pump station everyone else who's already been

here is 80% now we assess betterments to everybody.

I know if I were you know you're not going to be happy about that. No, not at all.

No.

So, can I just clarify something from my own understanding? You were talking about Dartmouth Woods. I heard you say the Amelia. So, those are all rental units, correct? I know Amelia's rental units. Dartmouth Woods is all rental units.

Condos.

No, they're rental.

Yeah, they're rentals.

Rental. They're not condos. They're not owned right?

Yeah, they're rental, right? They're all rental units. So, the person who manages or owns that property is charged residential tax rates. Is that what you're saying? Mhm.

Because they're rental units, not condos right now.

It's based on the use. It's residential use.

Yeah. No, it's resial.

Even though it's a commercial piece of property. It's a commercial venture, but they're not taxially. It is a tough one.

It's a tough one. No, because you look at it from a landlord.

It's just going to go.

First of all, you know, you can't charge your tenants for water.

So, there's some confusion.

Charge your tenants for water.

If it's apartments, rental apartments are tax commercial. Okay.

Condominiums are tax residential.

Yeah.

Oh, okay. If it's a condo unit because because you own a condo. Yeah.

Rental.

So then those are taxed commercial, not correct.

Oh, so Jarbth Woods Ameilia are taxed commercial.

If they're resident, if they're rentals.

Yes.

Yes.

Well, that's opposite. Okay.

Now I know why I was confused.

If it's condo, then it's condo would be residential, right? Because that makes more sense.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, they own it. So if you look at the assessor's database for instance, any any rental unit is classified as commercial property.

Okay.

Jamie, do you remember a few years ago you came up and did a when you were the collector, you did an educational piece for the finance committee and the assessors did the same thing. It might be good to set that up in the future for the fin changed over to explain.

Yeah. Uh the assessor's office did a pretty good job at their um select board meeting.

Yeah. when they set the rate, they gave a pretty good um I don't know what date that was. That was November.

November.

November time frame.

Yeah, maybe December or early January, but we can share that with the with the finance committee.

Yeah.

January.

So, this is uh the same scenario just based on the sewer enterprise fund. You can see the rate increases provided.

Obviously, that huge spike which is 32% is based on the new sewer treatment plant. Um and and like we said, we would look to not have to do that all in one year. That would be um hopefully do increases year-over-year.

That's it. So many have Yeah.

Have people floated how much money would be needed to make a system if if an override was going to happen? Mhm.

Have people talked about at all like in the budget advisory group, what would we have to ask for to make it work? So, we're just in the process of starting to do that now.

They have.

Sorry. No. Well, we took real round terms.

Uh, but it's going to have to come, but I don't think it's going to come this year. I guess we could we could guess.

So, at the time that it's going to come, we also have to identify what the cost is if it doesn't pass. Would the budget advisory group be doing that?

Yeah, I think we would have to eventually say what happens if you do and what happens if you don't.

Otherwise, that would be Yeah.

I'm sorry. Who's going to vote for an override if they don't know what it's for or what the repercussions are?

Agreed.

No, exactly. But who I I was wondering who decided would be us. It would be the Well, we would I I would anticipate what we would be doing is isolating that as an issue and then we would task somebody in the administration.

Uh because this could be the the cost of a whole department.

Sorry.

Youth advis the youth advisory commission was on the on the board a few years ago because we were in such trouble and people kept it and they moved it down to half time. But a whole department could go away.

Whatever. more than a whole I mean yeah it could be yeah exactly that's very true right but it's kind of hard to predict at this point in time if we don't I think so closely but I think we have to do something but it's early days right now preliminary we've only been doing this since from beginning mid January the only point that I would make is and I know I'm the new person here but we've

talked about you know going through line I went through actual line item by line item by line item with every single line item in budget But we've talked about uh regionalization. What what more can we, you know, regionalize? And thank you very much for forwarding the regional agreement for the vote. That was really great. And it's always wonderful to see those things because they're type

written in they got arrows and things like that.

So, thank you for that. But we talk about regionalization and then we figure out what we can do there. And then we talk about consolidation and we say, "All right, what can we do there?" All right. We talk a little bit about the fire departments and what can we do there? And then the only place to go after consolidation is elimination. And that's kind of you know a 0.5 youth cohort. Elimination is pretty big.

Elimination is like co-eing grades one and two for the school.

It's none of our business uh in terms about I think in terms of elimination.

My my my point was if you're discussing the bag or whatever moving forward for override conversations then that's kind of all the elements. Uh I mean there's essentially there's essentially four options.

No, that's why I was making up on your So anyway, that's kind of my point is you're you're you're moving forward to elimination.

No, we could just add to his just as a point I want to clarify. Um unless you want to type Gary and I were incorrect. Rental units are taxed at a residential rate. Okay.

So, that's a problem to me.

So, the assessor's database has it as commercial, but the tax bill actually goes out as residential.

Is that a law or is that a um I presume it's a law. Yeah.

Okay.

Okay. So, we're back to the it's so it is all all of those are resident taxes resident.

I can see why people would think that's unfair cuz somebody is profiting from that for sure.

Absolutely. And investment. There'd be a fair argument for it to be commercial because they're not unless they're living on but even if they're living on the property, they are profiting off of it.

That's the only reason why they do it.

They don't do it because they want most of the developers are not. Not that I I'm probably not living.

Somebody's profiting off of it. They're not doing it because they they really care to get people off the streets.

I mean, unless it's a nonprofit.

Business people care. Of course, they're going to Right. Exactly on office building.

This is capitalism.

I know, isn't it? That was very helpful.

Yeah, it was.

But we we still don't know how much you would be asking for.

No.

And an operational override. I mean, no, not not officially. No.

And it and I agree with what they were saying at the budget advisory group that it needs to be a town override. It cannot be schools versus town.

It has to be Yeah. We have to point out town both constituents of the budget.

You can't ask for two million because then you'll be going back in another Well, that's the key. We talked about being a sustainability, you know, we got to look at this as a multi-year um issue. I mean, it's if if we're looking at 2% this year, then you would assume that that's there's an escalation clause to that.

So, there would be a strategy on when and how and how much to use overrides for. And it might be it might be two or three overrides, but uh as we discussed in one of our meetings, I don't know if it was here, there is a possibility you can lump them all and explain that they wouldn't all be enacted at the same time and it would be spread out over a

certain amount of time, but you're going to have to come up. We have to come up with a number or a laptop.

We do. And we and I think the reason I ask is that we have to get started because say the school district's going to use their school choice money to balance out their budget this year.

No, there's going to have to be a a request for an override next year.

People are going to have to start working on this.

Yeah, of course that you could try. So, we have we have to we're in the process now of putting together the bag group is uh putting together uh recommendations and what we've what we've accomplished so far and what we plan to get into going forward uh along the lines of what you just described. But it also includes a communications program a whole bunch of different things which will be which we have to

which we have to uh present to the select board sometime. I don't know when. What? In about four, eight weeks or Yeah, around there. Before it's on meeting ideally.

Yeah. I don't think that's broken.

You don't think so?

I guarantee.

So, we're working on it now.

Have to make Okay.

Yeah. I mean, there there's definitely would not be an override this year.

No, no, no. I know that. But even if it's next year, next year.

Well, we agree.

You mean I have one next year?

I do have one quick question. Who would be tasked with figuring out like those numbers? We would provide the facts and that would be it. It's it's those grassroot campaigns that have to work on it. We cannot use you like we can't even use a town room to have a meeting for it because technically Yeah. Because that would be that would be public facilities to it's campaign finance law.

That's my question then. Like who your PTO Yeah. You you can PTO's PTGS they select board can't they they select board makes the decision to recommend an over to put it on the ballot when they say they're recommending it do they say they're recommending it for certain amount yeah so they I'm asking how who figures out that amount they do not provide a recommendation necessarily they all the select board can do is put

it on the ballot propos and here's amount, we would provide the facts of, you know, here here's what it's for. Here's what the average impact would be.

However, um here's why we need it.

Yeah. Here's here's why we're doing it.

If we do this, this is what it funds.

You actually can't even say like on the ballot, you cannot say if this does not pass, will you lay off 20 teachers? You cannot say that. You can you have to put it as this would fund 20 positions at Dartmouth public schools. But but you could communicate prior to that what the con consequences.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We could the bag could somehow of just this is what it would fund and this is what happens.

Here are the consequences if they're if if you don't fund it.

But does the select board need to make that decision this year because a committee is not going to form unless they're recommending it.

I think that the select board would likely look to see that the MAG take the initiative on that. The budget advisory group and we talked about this recently.

We've we we've created a lot of boards and committees lately lately, which is good. Um, but we don't want a lot of overlapping and intersections. So, right, but we want action. You know what? One of the things that was frustrating me Monday night is feeling like, oh my god, we're going to do another year four and a half for the schools and then what you know one of one of our

fall fall town meeting. You've got to be rocking on the open. I think spring they need I think before the end of the year.

I don't know the timing yet cuz we haven't had a meeting. We haven't She means on the spring. I think she means form that not the override but in order to form a group to start working on it.

Can't wait until the fall. That's that is going to be the point to get a reaction on what the what the bag initially uh recommends to the t to the select board. Okay. And that has to happen in what do we say for I the next month or so. I think what what budget advisory group should should do is here's what we're looking at this year. Here's the budget consensus that

we've come to as representatives of each of these groups.

Um, but next year we recommend that the the select board consider an override if that's what as an example.

That's what it has that's what it has to say. And on top of that, for each one of those things, uh, I think we have to request or I'm going to be requesting that there's got to be a group or a person or whatever if say we're talking about consolidation or whatever we recommend that's responsible and that we're going to be ask I'm going to be asking that there are due dates, responsibilities, and who's going to

review them to make sure that we actually uh get the cons the benefits of doing consolidations or get the benefits of cost reduction. or whatever.

I still though I'm hearing them make a recommendation next year for the override. Can't they make a decision this year for next year? Say, "We're going to we're going to deal with the budget this year."

Mhm.

We think that it makes sense for a committee to form to consider an override for $12 million, whatever whatever it is that they say. They could do that this year and then we would know, okay, get get working.

This year is what? This fiscal year coming up 27.

No, I I'm not suggesting that the override happen this year. I'm suggesting that the decision Yes.

to recommend the override for this amount of money be made by the select board now. Because if it isn't, we wait and we wait and we wait. We get more people, you know, it just goes on for another year. I would envision that um when we make our initial report uh these sort of things will come up and we will make a statement to the fact that yes in this is the bag. Yes,

indeed. Uh, an override is needed and we have to start working on that now and then we have to get to the details of what it would look like uh when we have some kind of strategy that incorporates all this other stuff uh along with an override uh going forward again.

So then should it should the finance committee make a recommendation in their letter for example to the to the town meeting? Uh now I know what this I don't know if you can make a recommend May I say something? I think it would be more prudent Terry if the uh budget advisory committee formulated something and then if they wanted to should be probably also prudent would be presenting it to us.

Y and then presenting it down the road to the select board. I think it should come from them.

Well I that's you and I can disagree but I think there should be Well, that's fine. But I think there should be a way to do it. I think it should be coming from the uh I I would envision once we get this thing uh in a plan that we present to the select board that has things in it like overrides what what the amount would be uh what the amount would be required

when we should start doing it. We would have to make presentations to this group. We would have to make presentations to the school committee.

Um we'd have to obviously make presentations to the select board and that would start the diet. say in general there's a need for this it's not going to be in general it's going to be that we need an override right right but or two or three you got to put the data charts in there and you you got to lead them to the water I'm not understanding lead them to

the water the concern that I have is we have three committees now thinking about this okay we think about it we think about it we think about it we think you know well let's get make a decision.

The budget advisory group is absolutely moving in that direction. We It's on our agenda to be able to talk about this.

Yes. And and there's no I don't I don't see anybody on this group so far that is has an objection to doing an override.

It's just trying to develop how big it should be, when we should do it, should it be three of them uh strategically placed in addition to all this other stuff that's up here that we have finance committee. What would the finance committee be comfortable saying supporting an overall?

Yes. Well, we that's why I was saying that if when we finish this plan, I would I would urge that we come in and we make a presentation to the select board. We make a well, we already have to do that, but we make a presentation to the school committee, to this group, explain it, get more information out, uh, and take your advice. And then you guys, if you

agree with what we put up, uh, and we are open to making changes, you guys can then, uh, run with it in terms of how I'm on you, Brian.

So, if I may, I'm sorry.

I'm not bashful about uh, sorry to interrupt.

Okay.

But, yes, definitely not on the agenda to have this big discussion, not to slow it down, Terry. I apologize, but I think we have 10 more minutes in this room.

Yes. Good job. Let's get on to the really interesting thing about a whole lot exciting.

Definitely not getting done tonight apparently.

Um, okay.

I forgot what that was.

Good job, J.

Well, it's certainly a good discussion, but it is would be better if it was actually on the agenda and we had a little bit more background information.

Well, I once Yeah, we've got to get we've got to No, all I All I was Please be Oh, no.

No. All I was going to say is as we as we get as we get more information and we get through the select board, we'll come and make all handbook time. Handbook time.

Anyway, in our Okay, we have 11 minutes.

Okay, I'm following. We can get there.

We can get Thanks to Terry who did some of this background work. Thank you very much.

Sorry about that. No, you're right, Janine. wasn't it wasn't listed as an item on the agenda.

Yeah, definitely a worthy discussion.

Anyway, I know you I didn't send this rough draft out after I took Terry's notes and pulled it all together, but did some combination of it.

Yeah, about that.

So, we could see what's in red. This is based on the notes that came from the town moderator.

Uh, can you see it?

No, no, no. I know because I have it on the screen. All right. Go.

Better.

Yeah.

Oh, come on. We don't have to look at Terry's notes. We'll look at Terry's notes if they're relevant.

Okay. Better.

Um, so what's in red is what's up for additions, just so you know. I don't think there'll be a lot of discussion.

So, this was a good sentence, Terry, that you added because we hadn't really mentioned that. um separate handbook.

As everybody here probably knows, there's a handbook that was put out by um town administration that's specific to the boards, committees, etc. that are separate than the finance committee because they're appointed by select board whatever and we're appointed by the town moderator. Um so that's just that and that will be a hot link to that particular handbook.

Good. Mhm.

No one's everybody can read. I'll change it after.

Uh the minor changing of the text here and any resident um can I'm sorry J I I the uh I had a comment on that first first one.

I don't like the word is intended only for the finance committee. It makes it sound like we're going to ignore the So what do you town board? Take the word only is intended for the finance comm.

Okay, that's fine. That's fair.

Good point.

Yeah, I like that.

Delete.

Yeah, good thinking, John.

Thank you, John.

Uh Terry added in any residence may apply. It's fine. Um so the question was because the moderator didn't make any comment about this in her email in there.

No, that was just No, I know that was you. So I took it as I don't know. She didn't seem to mind that it was going directly to her. it and this document can be changed at any time when the term ends. So working document, right?

So that can stay the same. All right. Uh there was comments made about um the attendance to make sure that it includes that we tell everybody that's also important that they also go to the spring town meeting and the fall town meeting.

That's an important part of your 75% attendance rate consistent with other appointed committees. So there's flexibility in in that if somebody needs to be out they longer for good reason, they need to speak to the moderator and they could perhaps do Zoom meetings. The town meetings are finance committee meetings.

We have to Well, that's why this says this. And anyway, she made the comment that that should be clearer, right? I get it. It is it is a meeting for finance for finance committee meeting members say that no I'm sorry no they're not so town meetings like the town meetings we're not required to go to you as finance committee members town meeting member oh but I'm required to go to town meeting yes

okay not to be a town meeting member you don't have to be a town meeting member but you do have to go to town meeting in case anybody has questions because we sit on stage your meeting and it's posted as a meeting.

Well, wait. I I just read that as I didn't I you know Okay. Sorry.

Yeah. That's why that's why it was asked to be clearer.

Meeting members. Yeah.

And if there's an issue with attendance, obviously that can be discussed with the moderator. So, yeah, I don't take attendance. So, that could be looked at by somebody else. Oh, it's in the uh minutes. The record's there.

Yeah, the record. We've only had a couple situations that it's been problematic. I can think about the people. Yes. you know. So, yes, that's true. Um, but yeah, it hasn't happened in a long time at this point in time. Um, it was requested that we um align ourselves more with the other committees and uh go through the process of electing the chair and the vice chair annually.

There's your sentence.

That's that's a big change. And one reason that I support it is I have thought to myself to do the chair or to do the vice chair, you have to be in the role. And how do you do that if you do this every three years? If you do it every year, there's more of an opportunity for switches. So it does make sense to me.

I don't have a problem with it. I mean, you probably held the chair a long time.

I was certainly vice chair for three years. So I mean, I'm just saying absolutely it's been whatever it's been. Yeah.

Yep.

Doesn't mean the chair or the vice chair has to change.

That's correct.

We better have an election every year.

No. Yes. That's what it means. It means that we should reconsider every year.

Yep.

You know, so someone could be chair for three years.

How do we do it now? We just Somebody somebody just No, we do it every three years after town meeting. We were doing it every three years in.

informal because when it wasn't even we absolutely do when Bob stepped down with you Bob was the vice chief must have been the chair we had an election we did yes and it's typically held after town meeting that was that's the terminal that's the same so I voted for you we actually all voted for you didn't we have a four minutes four minutes left no we got to Oh, we're good. Yeah.

Oh, we okay?

Yeah. I just talked to the group.

You weren't supposed to say anything.

I know, right?

We got to stand here and listen to this.

This is good. Let's get this done. We might as well keep going, please. Thank you. We can probably easily get it done in half an hour. Uh, vice chair language had changed a little bit.

There there was a request for clarification that the uh vice chair collects, coordinates and organizes the input of all the members at the meeting.

Right.

Mhm.

Okay. Minor in my but some of us read this and took it for granted. I know. So now it's actually in a sentence.

So I have to do something now.

It's just in a sentence in the handbook.

Carrie, that's all I can say.

Uh there was a request to change the wording on the person who uh manages our minutes. Uh contracting secretary for the committee is arranged by the administration to review meeting recordings and prepare minutes.

There was confusion that it was not an item and I don't have the older wording with me that the wording was not such that it's not a line item in our budget.

We don't have personnel, right? We don't we don't decide who it is. It's really an administration.

It's done by someone else.

Janine, you moved too fast for me. The vice chair.

Oh, sorry.

Um, so I just want to make sure there's some flexibility there. Um, you know, that's the way we've operated since I've been on the board, the vice chair.

Um, that's true.

kind of I want to say access the board secretary but um has taken on that role not because it was mandated in the handbook just because they volunteered to take on that role and we may have a member that's better suited than a vice chair to take on that role and I would hate to someone who's better suited who wants to do it but doesn't want to be vice chair. I want to take on that role

and responsibility. I just want to make sure we have that flexibility.

That's been an impediment for a couple of people because they're like, I'm not doing the computer. I'm not doing that.

I think I can give an example when Terry was chair and I was not vice chair.

I think I was asked to do that. Just saying. So, change that to say that as long as everybody understands that, you know, that it's correct. I mean, do we want to change that wording? So it would say although the finance committee develops a warrant vice chair and it might discourage someone say I'm going to be I don't want to be vice chair I don't have that skill set

I got the skill set someone might I got the skill set to be vice chair but I don't have the skill set to be uh a letter writer or the board soary we say if no one else in the committee is willing or something to that effect or I mean I think the point is the vice chair is the stands in for the chairperson and then coordinates and well it's a coordinates and organizes

piece. It's tricky, huh?

It is.

So maybe just putting the the vice chair um stands in for the chairperson and then uh the committee determines who will collect organize um the the warrant determines who so it might not be themselves.

Right.

That's fair. You think I don't have a problem with it just writing the sentence. Yeah, the concept is fine.

I leave out although No, I'm going to I'm not I'm not going to dream it up now. I'm going to just make a note to myself and fix it after.

I think um after although the finance committee develops, we could write um they may they may elect a person to do the blah blah blah blah blah. So after develops it would say they uh may elect a person a member to coordinate the letter to town meeting communications etc.

Anybody have any improvements to that?

I think I would start it differently. I think I would say the vice chair coordinates or what was the other word we used?

Coordinates or coordinates.

Coordinates slash collects um the development of the warrant recommendation created by the finance committee during the meetings or something like that.

All right.

But we're trying to separate that out.

No, no, the first sentence is fine. I believe the vice chair acts in the chairperson's absence. Period. That's is what it is. So although the finance committee develops I don't know if although but anyway the finance committee develops the warrant recommendations letter to town meeting and other finance committee communications.

The committee and that's where I'm you know what's what's the rest of that sentence. The committee will determine the committee will choose.

Yeah.

Good point. So determine whatever the person the way we current the way we currently do it is the vice chair acts as a notetaker and the um the the uh the consensus on the on what the letter and all the other docu and the um the pros and cons and agreements on how we support or not support is all done by a consensus around the table.

And what we're suggesting here And what we're suggesting here is that we remove that from the vice chair and we say the finance comm somebody will volunteer at the beginning of the year to say I will take notes, coordinate, put that letter together. It will be a set, you could call it a secretary.

So what happens if somebody doesn't want to do it?

Sorry.

What happens if someone doesn't split it the way we do it now?

And if that's the case, why bother even doing it? Why don't we just do it the way we currently do it?

I don't understand. We're just trying to in other words, not have a secretary who had Why do you have to have a secretary in the United States? I trust your judgment on and put the letter together putting together the wording.

I mean, if you read what I wrote right now, I just The woman who does the minutes cannot do that because it's making decisions. The committee has to make decisions and recommend. So, somebody needs to be comfortable, whoever might be comfortable putting this together on a computer. We're talking about town meeting prep documents.

Yeah.

Who will manage these projects? Who recommendations?

Do them, write them.

What if what if we because it's under the vice chair role, what if we left it the way that it was edited and then add another sentence, something um as the um either the vice chair or the committee as a whole may designate another member to assist the vice chair with task as needed. That way you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You just add something to allow designate. You don't have to here's a

sentence. The vice the the finance committee develops the warrant recommendations, letter to town meeting and other finance committee communications sentence. Also, I make that a separate sentence. The committee will determine by consensus who will assist as needed.

Perfect.

That's perfect.

Yeah.

Love it.

Better than trying to assign duties.

No, we're not because it could vary. It could vary from meeting to meeting, from year to year.

Right.

Gary.

Gary, is somebody welcome to join us. Um, I know. I'm so excited. We have a visitor.

I know it's uh Okay. Oh, are we good now, John? Because that's Yeah. Okay.

Thanks, John.

I'll fix the spacing. So, the contracted secretary.

Okay. The other part that um liazison we needed to do um some clarification was about the liaison role. So the sentence was added finance committee members only attend forformational purposes and are not members of those bodies. Liaons are observers and should participate in the same capacity as any other resident and may speak only at the discretion of the presiding chair.

You know what though? There's two of those leaison that are voting members, right? The soils board and the That's true. But and I could put that in there. You're right. I have that. You're right.

Finance committees only attend uh liaison in non voting roles.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That covers both. I mean that's good.

That should fix this.

So it's agriculture.

Yeah. So Terry, I noticed you made some comments in the chart. But I think when I saw what you had sent me, I I feel like you were working on an old word doc, not the latest one.

Oh, okay.

So, I split it between voting and non- voting. Um, the find if you look at the current PDF and you had added a couple that I didn't put in here because they're not in the handbook from the town. They're not considered as pos they're not considered as boards right now. So that was charter and bylaw.

That's strange, huh?

Well, we have to refer to Cody on that as to why those are not in the current town handbook.

I'm thinking he overlooked it.

Yeah, it must have been an oversight. We can look at that.

Well, that they're only temporary, right? So that's why I wasn't charter only what every 10 years you're required to do something.

And bylaws, I don't think there's any law that says you have to update your bylaws, right? Our our charter does say we're supposed to have a bylaw review committee um every I think it's every five years. It's the opposite of charter review. Well, we've we've tried to get it going a number of times and I guess they know me. I was online going by committing able to do it.

Uh they posted several times and didn't get anyone to to um to volunteer. But we're going to probably beginning of the fiscal year we're going to repost it and try to get it going. We can change as needed if but a bylaw committee doesn't necessarily would it necessarily have a finance committee liaison or would it just have maybe somebody from the finance committee who served in that role?

I'd have to look at the charter. I don't know if other people off the top of my head there's a there's a need for it because we we didn't volunteer Brian. We they said they needed two people from the finance.

That's right. They said they needed Well, we after they said they needed two, then we volunt Okay. We didn't know what we get what we were getting into.

No, it was very enjoyable though.

Is that the right word?

Uh, I'm not asking. Never mind.

Um, anyway, we'll add it if when it comes up again, we can put it in this chart.

That's a good one, too.

That's why we work as a team.

Um, all right. So, there was a request for a clarification. So I'm just looking at the notes that I have from the moderator. I think there was confusion on her part.

Um we wrote working with select board and town departments. That was the heading and I believe it was misinterpreted because of the way she answered this because she said working with select board and town meeting.

All right. So I think there was confusion that we were randomly working with town meeting members and we know we don't do that.

Um anyway, so that's why I changed this sentence a little bit.

Just said the finance committee may meet jointly with town departments, other committees or boards or the select board to review budget requests and address matters related to town meeting.

Yep.

Okay. And I put in it is usually held at the select board meeting because one time I one time I wanted them to come to us and they said that's not how it's done. So okay that's this is how I admit I left that out because that usually gets posted by whoever does the meeting post.

That's true.

You're right.

You're right about that but I mean the location doesn't matter who determines the location of my book.

you know, they want to have it in the select boardroom. That's fine. And I know that whoever posted the meeting for us, which was likely Gary, it will be determined at that time.

Janine, aren't we duplicating other committees and then we single out the slug board? They're another committee.

Why aren't we singing out school committee? Why aren't we say, you know, just meet with other uh committees?

I can take that out. which is why why are we singing out the select board that I think the only reason um if you were to single them out would be that technically it's their budget that goes on I looked at it as a I don't know was respect is the right word or I mean that's a governing body I mean that's fine you know it is their budget yeah so I mean that's that's

that's the only reason I I think you could do either but if you were to leave select board that's probably put them first select board and other committees non- selected.

Okay, John.

So, okay, girls.

So, when we determine, you know, who's going to do what roles, let's all think of John Souza.

When we have to do, you know, anything from writing letters to stuffing the envelopes.

Just would suggest, would that be a mistake?

Just a suggestion.

You'd only do that once, guaranteed.

We'll see.

Okay. Fix any English that's wrong there later. So, this was fine. This is what it was.

Um, so there was a suggestion made under the public statements and emails section to clarify.

Finance committee members must be careful not to discuss items which should be posted on an agenda even if emailing between two or three members.

I didn't and I don't I don't remember Terry if I changed something that you put in there but uh just hold that thought Brian.

Okay please.

I don't think there's a lot of words about open meeting law and such. Um there's a lot of reference to open meeting laws in the 160 plus page document that is our first mantra.

Yeah.

And then there's also open meeting law information in the town handbook that's very detailed. And it's suggested later on in this document that we should always have attended at least one webinar on what open meeting law is if you haven't been a member of another committee. And my personal opinion was just that I thought it'd been covered versus us adding a lot more about open meeting law in this paragraph.

Okay, Brian, I'm sorry.

I was just I was going to say, weren't we always working under the idea that uh if we had a quorum, you couldn't you couldn't discuss things and now it's limited to three people?

No, I think it I agree. I I think that's how that's how we did act. But the point was made that just thinking abstractly about the group that if you and I are talking about something that we think should be on the agenda and we're going to make this recommendation, there should be an opportunity for the public to hear that conversation and if it's happening by email, then they can't.

I I agree with that to a certain extent.

Yeah, it's it's saying not to discuss.

If three of us decide to discuss something, regardless of what it is, we're not violating the state ethics rules are and we're not violating the open meeting law. So why are we putting that in there? We're not in violation. I agree. We should be transparent and do everything.

Yeah, that's Yeah.

Yeah.

That's not what state ethics and the open meeting sense. It makes common sense but well that but that's the if we had like over five people or something then you couldn't right that's what we've always worked together but less than that that was my understanding when I first got on the board here that's way it was the way it was ignoring the conversation I'm reading the notes that were sent

yeah I think this is overly restrictive right yeah I agree here's the here's the paragraph Under Massachusetts open meeting law, a quorum of a public body may not deliberate outside of a posted meeting.

Okay, we all know that the open meeting law guide further explains that deliberation may occur through a series of smaller communications often referred to as serial deliberation. Right?

Just the reader. Serial deliberation can occur when members communicate in a chain or sequence even if fewer than a quorum is included in any single message.

Oh, that's and there's four three or four examples.

I sent this to everyone.

Yep.

I'm just I know I I common sense, but I that's my understanding of why that's in there.

But that I heard you said guide. I didn't think you say law was statute. You said guide and it also says must be careful. So I think it's a perception.

I'm dead set against I'm dead.

No, I know what you're saying. It does say may occur, can occur.

And you also use the word guide. A member emails two other members expressing an opinion on a matter within the committee's jurisdiction and those members then forward or relay that opinion to additional members. Okay, I get that's a serial thing, but I don't believe we've done it, frankly.

Yes, if you would indulge me, I have to take off uh in a moment, but I do want to make a request uh that I was going to make at the end of the meeting. Um I do want to request uh a chart uh indicating just for our budget deliberations indicating our budgeted FTEES for each department for FY25 26 and 27 and I can certainly give you more. I think you

understand what I'm looking for. Um but can you say that again Nate? Um I would like for part of our budget deliberations I would like to get a chart um that indicates our budgeted FTEES per department for FY26 FY FY25 FY26 and uh the FY27 as proposed budget.

So by FTEES you mean when it says uh administration when it says I I provided a fulltime employees full-time employees uh FTE equivalents right full-time equivalents um and just department I provided a list to Cody and Gary just sort of need the names we don't need the names we just need the bodies how many question though like what what will you do with that information I just curious

we get it it's on the budget it's just not in its own separate chart.

Well, you get the budget. You don't get the um the budget doesn't have the pos like position control. We call it position control, but we can extract that data from the financial system.

We've always had to say, is this one and a half people? Is this one person?

We want what I'm specifically looking for is from year to year for each department, how is there from what's budgeted, not what's actually filled, what is the FTE year-over-year? Um, so for all of the various departments.

So you're looking for actuals.

No, no, I'm looking for budgeted. Okay.

I think I think Cody and Gary understand what I'm looking for and I would just like that as context for our budget deliberations.

Y we just So let me give you some context.

The reason why Nate's bringing this up is um Nate had emailed us and I had just asked that it go to the committee because we just don't want to set a preced. It's a good idea. I'm not saying it. I just don't want to set a precedent of individual members requesting individual things. While I think this is valid and warranted, I don't want something to come up in the future that maybe isn't and then we aren't

consistent with with what we provide. So that's the reason why it's here.

Yeah. Especially because, you know, there's a bit of work involved in doing this and we've been talk we've been talking about this for a long time. So I will say we can certainly get it going forward as part of the budget portal.

It'll be in there, the budget document we're going to put together and it'll be a lot easier for us to it'll just be part of the annual process. But we can school do it as a rule because they have to return to the state. So yeah.

So what about uh part time? Will it show?

Yeah. So it would show like if we have someone who's um 20 hours in and three people that are 40 it would be a 3.5 FTE would be for the department, right? M madam chairperson.

Yes sir. Uh I would like to reiterate I think like making individual requests is not a good idea. I think it all should go through here uh going forward.

Oh agreed.

Is that addressed in our handbook?

So I I it might be my request page 10.

Yeah, I do.

But I think it's important that we Yes. out certainly out of a courtesy for the two folks that have plenty on their plate and I would tell those two people to push back regardless whether it's a good idea. You did the right thing.

That's exactly why. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a matter of it's not good or bad. But we're here to support the committee should be discussed. Everybody should agree. It's important information, right? Otherwise, you're going to have nine people asking you for the same purpose with common knowledge.

And I'd rather ask and that plus time than the day that we're of course on.

Of course. Thank you.

All right. You too. Bye night. Okay. All right. So, back to the exciting topic at hand.

Very exciting.

What would we like to do?

You're doing very much.

Yeah, she is fabulous.

Terry, this is going to get done. It may take the rest of my life.

We're going to get this handbook done.

I think you should give it to the uh assistant, your assistant over here.

I'm still thinking John Susan. I'm still thinking John Susan. But, you know, anyway, input and I get should we get slammed?

Yeah.

Expand more on this paragraph. Should I go back to the source of the comment?

I I have a real problem. To me, I know what you're saying. I agree because I first known to me to me it's like stifling uh discussion and it's against everything that we've ever done before as a group.

I think it's a good thing to keep in mind, you know, when when we're talking just because I think it could get especially when we're doing the letter for example.

Yeah.

You know, well, I haven't seen a problem with the letter. I mean, you know, not everybody has weighed in on I think all you can say finance committee must be careful when discussing items which should be posted on the agenda. The would not should not be when positive versus the negative. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's much more positive to say and we'll take off the rest of that sentence.

Good.

And for anybody who needs clarification, there's a million webinars on open meeting law.

Right.

Very true.

And yet still it happens. Right.

Well, it's easy to get confused. It is easy to get confused.

Well, I'm not aware that we've violated any. Certainly, nobody has reported us.

Gary, right? You would know that.

Gary reported us.

Gary reported us from the Boston Globe.

Anyway, moving on. Um, actually, I think that was it because the rest of this was the resources for professional development, which that's why, Terry, I realized when I got to this that you weren't working off the right word, do talk. Okay.

Because this was all here and there was no comments made on that.

Okay.

So, was is this this is the final? It's not does not have to go does have to go back to the monitor working document.

Do we believe that this is good as it is and so we're not going to put in a section on the warrant the letter to town meeting?

Well, in what respect I guess because it's mentioned that it's something we do.

Yeah, it's already it's in this it's already in the handbook.

So, we don't have to is what you're saying.

My reason for doing this is that it's not um given that the finance committee sends a letter to town meeting. We decided to do that at some point along the way. So, I wanted to write that down so that for future members, it they knew that's what we do. That's how we communicate to them.

Um, but we don't have to because it's referred to earlier.

Well, the finance committee develops the warrant recommendations, letter to town meeting, and other finance committee communications.

Yep.

Says it all.

Sounds good to me.

I mean, I don't think we need to have that any more detail, but No, says it all.

We can always expand this. Terry, would you like to expand this? We can doing the cover.

Yeah, this one.

What was that?

Oh, I'll do the cover. I love doing that sort of thing.

Wait a minute. I'm sorry.

You should do a picture.

Is somebody offended by this beautiful cover I designed?

Actually, it's perfect.

I don't care if someone suits the audience.

Suits the audience. Exactly.

So, as a side comment, because I I feel like I have to say this, Terry. So Terry apparently ran this through the uh was it AI on on Word?

No. Um co-pilot Microsoft has um want to write this friendly, want to write this professional.

Well, this came up I could imagine I ran it through friendly.

She read it through friendly and I took a look at it as friendly.

I really enjoyed there was a sentence about chatting about budgetary stuff.

Oh, you asked it to rewrite it in a friendly manner.

That's friendly.

It's AI, I think. But I just thought it was funny. I use it sometimes if I'm writing a letter just to see, you know, somebody absolutely who who is professional wrote this, what would they say and then I might use it or not. But I did suggest that we could perhaps use that on our town meeting letter budgetary stuff brings it on down.

Why not?

So, we're done, right? I will I think so.

What is it like a couple pages? I'll fix it up in all black and white. Send it to everybody here for the check of, you know, period, comma, whatever. And then we'll let whoever Gary I guess we'll have a group photo. We should actually Oh, no.

Photo next time and we can send it out to all the town meeting members and say this is your finance committee in action.

When you go to other town town websites, you're right. There's usually a group, a picture of the group, the committee that year and it's updated every year.

It's true.

It's true.

Shows people there's real people behind.

We're actually looking to do that on our website. It puts a face with the name with people. It really It sounds silly, but it's actually not. It's It's actually a good idea.

That's a good idea.

Sky committee.

We did it a few years ago, but you know, we wanted to save money on photographers here. So, we used the detective from the police department and he used his uh his crime scene camera.

Yeah, we're a crime scene.

Question on communication. Does it make sense to run this stuff through the communication person?

We can ask some feedback on it or is that overkill?

I mean, she she's she's great. She's definitely willing to help. So, we can or we've given her another task to do that. We don't want to give her more than she's already doing.

No, if you just if we just wanted her to look at it and make um No, that's a good idea then.

Recommendations, she'd be willing to do that. Yeah. Yeah. She's great cover, too.

Yeah. Yeah. could cover for the community and that could be standardized throughout communication stuff like that.

Great stuff.

You could incorporate the high school in some of these things because like the high school has a photography program.

Do you have an update for us, Cody, or have you already given us all kinds?

I think you have a good idea of what's going on, but I'll just add we're we're in the thick of the health insurance changes or recommended those health insurance changes. We've had two public meetings this week for all of our employees at the past two nights. We have MOAS out to all of our unions and uh they've begun meeting and voting on them and we have to have them all back

by Monday. So fingers crossed. We right now we have a um at least three or four unions that have signed off. So hoping to get 11 out of 11 by Monday.

That's great news.

What's the feedback on the buyin? Is it positive? Are you getting Yeah, it's very positive. Um once people understand what it really is, it's it's very positive anything. Yeah. No, there's only there's only um opportunities to gain. So, we've had a lot of really positive there's some been some concerns at first just not really understanding, you know, what the changes are. But when people see that

the savings is I mean, I think I talked about before $11,000 for someone who switches from an HMO, a traditional HMO to a high deductible plan, it's it's hard to argue. Uh and the total savings across our employees will be $2 million next year.

That's great. Is that an an achievable goal to have a response by Monday?

We've let them know it has to be.

There you go.

Yeah, we've been I mean, we've been in contact for the past couple weeks, so we didn't just throw them on it this week.

We did throw them on it just in the past couple weeks. Um, unfortunately, it was it was beyond our control. We we were voted into the the health group um the last week of February. We started having meetings with all of our unions that next week and and we h the health group needs a decision by April 1st of if we're going to um accept into that group or not. So I think there given the

amount of savings that's going to be on call this weekend.

Yeah. Well, we're always on call making the making the phone calls and make sure it's on your desk Monday morning.

I know we Yeah, we're following up.

Feels good to be making progress on some things.

I hope so. Yeah, that's the goal. Um and that and we just um obviously we had the joint meeting with the school committee on uh Monday and so the school committee is meeting again on Tuesday to um hopefully review a um a compromised budget essentially.

Right. If you weren't at the meeting, you should watch the meeting.

It was very good.

I think most of us were there.

I I know. Yeah.

Only a couple of us. Yeah. John was there. I saw behind Yeah, he was to your right. You were to my left.

Brian was there. Brian was right in front of me. Oh, I totally did. I was like, "Who's here?" No, I'm just kidding.

It's too close to the front.

It wasn't on TV, but you could get it on Zoom or you can get it on YouTube.

YouTube. Yeah. Yeah, YouTube. There you go. That one by heart. Okay. But I couldn't get it anywhere.

The only other thing, Janine, is um Oh, you weren't there. The bylaw review committee does not include a member of the fin.

It's always on YouTube.

Okay. What?

Does not include a member of the finance. Bylaw review committee is made up of the town clerk, two members of town meeting, and two members appointed by the select board. Okay. So I mean it could be somebody could be it's not a liaison role. It just like the charter review specifically says finance committee members because bylaw review is not. Yeah.

Correct. Okay. Good to know.

Um so we have like one minute if somebody has a liaison report.

I went to a great DPW meeting today. Uh so that was awesome. Comprehensive program review everything that uh Cody had to say and more. So it was awesome.

I got the postcard in the mail yesterday.

Me too. Any smudges on your postcards?

Yeah. No, there was a smudge on it. There was a little smudge.

Could you read it?

Read it. Yeah. Read it.

I didn't notice. Yeah.

Smudge.

We've got We've gotten mixed reviews that some have had smudge. So, if it's a widespread thing, we want to go back to the vendor and say, "Hey, you made a you know."

Okay.

I was at Council on Aging this morning with Cody and uh the kitchen is moving right along.

Yay. We're hoping that we'll have uh bids are going to going be going out and we in hope that the kitchen project will be done end of August.

And when are the bids due on that?

Uh midmay.

Mid.

Mid. Okay.

I'm dying for the alts on that.

The bag group is in the process of just started the process of saying what we accomplished now and what we want to go do in forward uh in the next next fiscal year and uh that's due to the selective about uh four or five minutes and then the plan is to make presentations to all anybody that's interested in hearing us including this group and the school committee. Capital Improvement Committee

made their votes probably the earliest in history. So that report will be done.

Oh, good.

Yeah, that So, one last thing before we leave. Um, Buddy Baker Smith will be in next week to go over articles. Yep.

Couldn't make it tonight. And uh um as Terry mentioned, the CIPC has wrapped up their um recommendations for the uh Springtown meeting.

So, um that that's been done. Uh we thank them and we actually have two new committee members on there because we had two openings. So, we filled those up. uh two committee to the two members there.

It's nice to interview for those who are Yeah. And uh lastly, the I know I talked about this at the beginning of the year, but um uh the members here will be getting an email so that we can start using the one drive.

So all this documentation will then be put into the one drive so you can access that. So I'm working with amazing.

Yeah, I feel like that's some progress.

I mean, not that we print a lot of paper but Oh, we used to print Oh, yeah.

We used to come in and have books, so I'm glad we're not doing that. Yeah, that's great.

And that is it.

Do we have any minutes? No, no minutes this one.

Okay. Uh, somebody want to make a motion to adjurnn?

Well, I'll make a motion to motion.

Patrick seconds. All in favor?

We're all going to fight for the second.

I officially adjourned.

Thank you.