Budget Advisory Group Meeting January 13, 2026

Ready to get started?

Yep.

All right, perfect. So, um first thing we'll need to do is to elect officers.

So, chair, vice chair.

Okay.

I nominate Chris Oliver.

I nominate Chris O'Neil.

I'll second that.

Is that for chair?

Yes, please.

All right. Let's do a roll call.

You weren't even You weren't even late to the meeting.

I know. I got here really just in case.

Make it Irish first. Make it all Irish and I will uh Okay.

do assistant whatever it is.

All right.

I will.

All right.

Okay, very good.

Oh, just as a note, this meeting is being recorded by GCTV.

[clears throat] So, you probably should vote.

Yeah, you should vote for chair.

Yeah, you'll need to probably vote for chair.

All right. So, Janine has made a motion for [clears throat] Chris Oliver to be the chair.

Sorry, I misspoke.

And um that was seconded by Brian.

Yes.

All right. So, all in favor?

I.

Anyone opposed?

Nope. He's in.

Take the reins now, Chris.

Okay.

Uh so, if I can find your agenda. Is it up there? Oh, there we go.

You need to vote.

Vice chair. So, you're asking for uh Motion for a vice chair.

Okay. Um do I have a motion for a vice chair?

I I do.

You do.

I do. Uh motion for vice chair for uh Brian.

Oh, yeah.

Uh I'll second that.

Seconded. All in favor?

I.

I.

Any opposed?

Okay.

Okay.

Congratulations.

Congratulations, Brian.

Thank you. You, too.

We'll be speaking quite a bit, I would assume.

I'm sure.

Yeah.

Okay.

Uh Next is just a review of the charge. So, Gary, if you want to pull up the charge on First of all, has ev- everybody had a chance to look at the charge?

Yes.

And review it. Okay.

Yes.

Yes.

I haven't seen it in in a little while.

Do you want Do you want to read it or Can you read it?

I can read it. This is really I don't think we I don't think we need to read it. I It's It's been public for a while, right?

Okay.

Yes.

Yep.

All right. So, so I guess the overall gist, how how we're going to run this thing is I'll take opinions from everybody. I'm I'm here to to listen and to try and get us all on the same path to educate the public, to bring out as much information from the corners of this town as we can get it involved in this conversation.

Um find out exactly what uh what our goals are and um and move forward, make some recommendations to to the select board and the various boards in town.

Um so um Mr. Chairman, I want to follow up a little bit because when we initially talked about this group, which is now some time ago, Gary and I spoke about this. And it was really to create an opportunity for all committees to know kind of the detail level of the budget.

So, FinCom has been meeting the last couple of years with department heads as they've been going through with their budget. So, FinCom has an idea as the budget is created of what those departments are asking for.

Um I'm not sure if the conversation has included uh things they may be asking for that will not be funded. I'm not sure if that has been it has.

And um at the select board, we just see the budget. And we really need to have be aware of what's going on there. And school committee does that to the bill, you know, for the buildings. What is each building want and what do they want that's not being funded? Again, that's not something typically we know and that may not be something that FinCom goes into that detail just because of the size that budget.

Right.

So, this is important so that school committee um and the school department understands what all the other budgets entail and what all those other departments are looking for.

And vice versa.

And vice versa.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, one of one of the things that um that was cued up for me during uh capital um uh you know, trying to set out the uh the priorities for capital in the town. Um was at a one of our meetings where it basically was brought to us and I didn't understand myself what the priorities were of those individual departments. You know, and the job of capital.

Right.

To do that. And they meet with those various departments and prioritize with the representative from the department Mhm.

this long list. What is the top that you need and what can we, if we do this this year, what do we do next year? So, when we get that from from the capital, it's been vetted.

It's been vetted, but not not overly publicly, you know, not publicly.

Oh, well, okay.

is I guess the approach that I had to it was I I understand that, but I'm not sure if everybody in town kind of gets where those priorities are grown from, you know, and what the issues are in back of those priorities uh that that kind of formulated the list uh per department. So, that that's I you You far as I'm concerned, that that's one of the things that I'd like

to see um you know, the priorities from all the departments come out in this group um it to educate the public on exactly what the heavy lifts are from each department and and why the the priorities are the way that they are.

The capital meetings are recorded, is that correct?

They are not, but they will be now.

For historically, they have not been recorded. They will going forward, they will be recorded.

I realize not everybody watches the meetings but Yeah, and I and I appreciate the fact that these guys listen to that select board meeting, they're involved in it, and they realize that they're you know, they could be a little bit more light brought to that process. Uh so now the the capital meetings will will um be made public and so we'll all have a better understanding, Chris.

Yeah, I think from the school committee's perspective, I think that this is this goes a long way. I think for us building collaboration. I can only speak for myself, but I know that there's obviously every year uh Jim brings up priorities to us for capital um as well as just general operating expenses, right? And we we we hear things um you know, either through Jim or just from reading the newspaper

and from um listening to uh people in town about what other departments need.

And last thing I want to do is create, you know, pit one department against the other, and I think this this committee certainly goes a long way towards um building that collaboration.

That's a good point. Nice.

So uh you know, we've discussed a few things on the uh the communication portion of this particular group. Uh Chris has brought up that level of collaboration that we need between the different departments, uh especially the school department, which I think in in my um short term of experience with this uh with the select board anyway, um has been pretty good in in my opinion. I and

I understand from others that it it hasn't always been that way. So, that's that's always a positive thing, too, I think. Um So, I think the the first portion has been uh been brought to light. The second uh second piece is the uh the budget review and analysis.

So, review the preliminary revenue expenditure projections provided by the town administrator and superintendent, and then discuss key budget drivers, the trends, assumptions affecting both municipal and school budgets.

So And the key there is that this committee is short-term. We want to know by the time we're sitting down at the next uh June town meeting.

Right.

We need to have a handle on this. This is not long-term, you know, capital planning, a long-term budgeting. This is the differences we can make in the FY27 budget discussions versus the FY26 budget discussions.

Mhm.

So, should we, you know, start to get into the review?

Um We can come high-level, some high-level information.

Um over the last So, all the department budgets were due um December 26th. We've begun uh one-on-one meetings with myself, Gary, and various finance committee members.

Um and you know, what what we're seeing is you know, we we've been very clear to the departments on you know, we have limited revenue.

Um and so, everyone I think has done an excellent job of keeping their requests within kind of those constraints. And and really beyond um contractual increases, the the biggest increases are are staff-related. You know, we have a comp and class study that's out.

Um and so, we're building in some some funding uh sources in the back end, but beyond just um step increases, essentially, you're not There's there's really nothing Well, that's coming from other than utilities. We're seeing like a spike in utilities, obviously. Uh and um the one-on-ones, as Cody mentioned, I just finished those. We have um only the schools left to to uh talk to. So, we're

actually 6 weeks ahead of schedule. This didn't happen until February of last year, which is good cuz it allows us time to talk to this group.

You were busy last year, Gary.

Yeah, a little bit.

So so the next piece of the schedule will be to go over the CIP C. Once I develop that, we'll meet in February for CIP C in conjunction with the finance committee meeting to review the budget documents that they sent. The I call it Everybody calls it the brain form but it's the form that they they put together. And so, once [clears throat] we wrap that up, we'll meet with the the bigger departments, schools, DPW, and

police. So, that's that's the time frame from now until March.

I think what's going to be important when for this committee is looking at those infrastructure needs that, you know, human capital.

What are all the departments asking for?

Where Where is there duplication? Can we Can we look at that? How can we better serve with with what we have?

Is it possible, Gary, can you send the this committee that Yeah.

timeline?

One of the biggest challenges we have is our fixed costs are rising just you know, just like Jim and the schools experience. On the on the general government side, they're rising at a much higher pace than everything else.

We're being told to budget 15% increase for health insurance this year.

That's already an 8 million dollar line item. That's I really can't do anything about that.

You know, the our pension assessment We have that number. That's almost 10% increase, I believe.

bulk Right.

It It's These are things, unfortunately, we we can't change those things. We are looking at health insurance different opportunities. Now that we have a claim history through all of 25, we should start getting some data back from some of these providers, and we'll have a better idea. We We did meet with uh one of the and there was some potential annual savings, but there's a buy-in, significant buy-in to the tune

of 3 to 4 million dollars. So, then you you you tap in what the savings may be and it's not a savings anymore uh because even if you saved 400,000 a year, well, if you have to pay 4 million, it's going to take you several years, right, to to make up for that.

And then in the 7 or 8 years, once you're made up for that, is there still a savings? You you don't know. So, it's going to need to be significant or a really decreased buy-in in order for us to to take advantage of that. But, it is something we're we're considering.

do have one other group that we're looking at, uh more of a local group.

So, uh they needed claims history up and through December.

Uh I've reached out to our consultant.

We're going to be meeting with them uh very shortly to see what what their what they can offer the town. But, um you know, we're looking at insurance, but it's a really a long-term um uh proposal because i- if even if we were to pay somewhat of a buy-in, uh the savings could be substantial for the for the not only the the budget, but for the employees. So, that this is all

things that we're looking at um going forward. This hasn't been done in decades. It's obviously with the Maya, they they keep on increasing. Uh this year we're expecting anywhere north of 15%. So, um it it's become a large um budget uh piece to this.

So, Gary, we we had a um uh couple of It was brought up a couple of times that we may have an insurance committee.

We have a We have a health uh insurance steering committee.

All right. Steering committee is having meetings currently?

They're not having meetings. We're gathering the data at the at the current time from the JPAs, all right, the local JPAs. Once we have that information, we will then set up a meeting with the HISC. We also have the IAC, which is um a group that involves all the unions.

Yeah.

We [clears throat] we meet with them uh once a year to discuss this. So, the last time we did meet, the you know, we wanted to have this uh steering committee Mhm.

um uh formed to look at the health insurance.

So, we are we we probably will have a meeting uh sooner than later once we hear back from this other group, the local group, so that we can now compare both groups that we have and also bring in Maya to talk to them and, you know, say, "Listen, you know, well, this is what we're getting from other groups.

Uh can you offer like-in-kind plans to the employees? Can that reduce the cost?" So, there are three groups inclu- you know, two and then one including Maya that we have to we have to review.

Okay.

But, they needed claims history up and through December to make a good, you know, a good proposal to the town.

And and they have all that now?

Yes.

Okay.

Um buy-in seems steep. Really steep.

It is.

Is that Is that It's In this particular case, um this group that that quoted us, you know, approximately that, one of the things that they've been able to do to keep their rates from increasing at 15% is they have very healthy reserves. Um and so, they've been they've dipped into their reserves essentially the past few years to to mitigate that increase. So, while um Maya was, you know, 15% last year, this

group was 7% 8% because they dipped into millions of reserves.

Essentially, that this would help replenish some of their reserves, um which they utilize.

Yeah, and that's been their policy since the that group was formed. They They do have other reserves as Cody mentioned.

Also, Maya has a lot of overhead. So, this group does not have a lot of overhead, and a lot of these local groups don't have the overhead that Maya has.

So, I think that's the reason why they can pass a lot of these savings on to the to the individuals.

So, Maya provides services to over 200, I think, municipalities throughout Massachusetts. So, these are much smaller.

Right.

Yeah.

And small is not, you know, not bad, No.

you know, but but the impacts you know, if you have a very substantial year on your on your claims, and it has a a much wider impact on a smaller group.

Yeah, about 15 years ago in the group that I chaired down the Cape [clears throat] Dartmouth was did present to them and at that time the claims history was not good.

Yeah.

And but I think overall that and the time that has passed the claims history in town has become that much better.

Good.

So I think it's it's an attraction for a group to want to take Dartmouth going forward. We'll just have to make sure that it's it's it fits.

So a couple of takeaways. First one is it's not great news on the insurance side.

Uh which is unfortunate because that's a huge number for the town. And I was hoping hopes not a plan but I was still hoping that we'd have um uh we'd have we we'd have a better response from the markets uh on the group policies. So that's that's a little disappointing. It's quite disappointing at 15 points out of the gate. Um That's what we've been told to estimate.

We'll have a better idea actually at the end of the month.

And we're still optimistic that we can get this I mean we can get this done before the end of this fiscal year.

We're pushing the groups and you know make it to make a decision. We want to we want to hopefully incorporate this into the FY27 budget if we have a savings.

Okay. And and the good thing is that the insurance group will convene.

I wasn't sure if it was off and running.

I thought my I was involved in that.

You were our appointment. Yeah. Yeah.

So I was a little concerned that I I haven't heard.

So the good thing is that that it will convene and we'll all have a a pretty good shot at getting back to the actual numbers and see what the claims look like. Go ahead.

Gary, is the 15% across both the high deductible plan and the the regular plan? The the two plans so that's That's what they've told us to estimate.

Yeah. Typically when My has an increase it it's across the board.

Yeah. And they usually give you a range so at actually at the MMA conference they announced what that what that would be. Uh you know and typically for us it's been double digits for the last few years.

Right.

As I mentioned before, it's great when Maya was single digits, but now it's not sustainable.

Yeah.

Yeah, it comes comes in waves, for sure.

You know, I was hoping that we would had crested, but apparently not. So, that's that's a little unfortunate.

Um We were last at the low end of their range, though, and in terms of actual rate were communities that were around 19% last year, so those communities this year will be over 20.

Mhm. Wow.

And Plymouth, I'm not sure if anyone's going to read Plymouth is in a very similar situation this year, where they thought, you know, their budget felt pretty good going into it, and they just got their kind of insurance data, and it's thrown off.

They have a significant deficit now, because almost half of their whole new growth for the town is is being taken up by insurance costs. So, not that it makes us it doesn't help us, but we're not in this alone. It's certainly kind of a more global issue throughout the state.

Well, it's an important point to make. It's an important point for for the residents to know exactly what we're up against when it comes to the the larger items in in the budget.

Um what are what are the key drivers should we be concerned with, you think?

We've got the classification coming up.

Classification, we have rising [clears throat] utility costs, we've seen that through all the budgets.

Um where, you know, last year we're looking at sometimes 15% rate increase on some of these utility costs, electric and both electric and gas. I mean, you've seen it in in in your own personal use the the the escalation. Healthcare definitely is a big one, and I think those are the those are the main key drivers, and the class and comp study. We've built a and pension assessment. You know, we've seen a

major increase on the pension assessment over the last couple of years.

So, I noticed in the audit that the that that a slight change in contribution has a pretty big impact on what the the town's outlay is on the pension, Uh right? Um have we made any changes to that over the last few years or what changes can be made?

We not many not many I would assume.

Well, so under the the GASB rules um pension assess the pension should be fully funded by 20 31. But what happens is as we get closer to those dates they keep pushing that date out. Uh they you know they they assume a rate of a of um a return of about 7%. You're not going to see that in the market. So that's the reason why they keep doing this asset smoothing.

They keep pushing these these numbers further out, which means for cities and towns that that expense never really goes away Right.

until it's fully funded. For us we we um have a benchmark of like $1,500 per employee. We could adjust that. Um but favorably I think in the last the last GASB actuarial it actually went down prior to the one we just had. This one went up. So you know, as as we move forward in time when that pension assessment uh becomes fully funded that becomes a huge savings for the town. But

as they keep pushing it out we have to keep addressing that.

Right.

I have a question. Um [clears throat] we're talking about insurance and a few other things and pensions. So can you compile a list of uh things large budget items that we really don't control? Uh it's market forces. And what the app and what the um what the implications are. Uh so how much of the budget It's a rhetorical question. Do you really have uh to fool around with? I have a sneaking suspicion it's not going

to be very much.

That's That's That's accurate, but we will put together a list.

Yeah, we can put a list together.

And so therefore uh the only way you got to cover this stuff uh is to have tax increases.

So, I just want to bring that up so that everyone is taking a look at um of the implications of these things.

And I think that's why we need to know what every department needs because if at some point we have to look at that, it's not to fund any one thing, it's what the town needs to be operational.

going ahead is not going to be that much you have control over especially since the major course is going to be personnel um related.

Yeah.

And and we also have debt we also have debt also, but that's minimal.

It is minuscule compared to other items in the budget.

Yeah.

So, I mean, that would tell us what we have.

So, on a on a macro basis, right? One of the things when when you talk about the review of the budget, you know, what things are going to look like, what the drivers are and what the time frames are going to be for changes in tax rate and things like that. I mean, the overall feel that I have and I've heard quite a bit about Diamond has a real low tax rate.

And and that's great. My stick on that is uh I think we need to keep it as low as we can for as long as we can.

Um however, uh like you said, Brian, you know, there are there are things in our control and and things that are not in our control.

And you try and keep as much pressure on the things that we can control as possible. And that one of the reasons for this group is to is I in in my opinion is to do that. It's to keep the focus on the things that we can really control and try and figure out ways to to mitigate any surprises and real snaps like we've seen in a couple of departments recently on certain

expenses. You know, when you don't have a controlled feel for what your budget's going to be.

And you have to you become reactive versus proactive. So this is in my opinion a good chance for us to be proactive as a group about things like that and make some changes that the town may be able to make in order to to control our own destiny here. Go ahead.

Just one other point.

[clears throat] I think also in that in that same vein we have to be looking at revenue generation.

Mhm, absolutely.

And what exactly that means to offset some of this stuff.

Yeah, and I've I've heard some options there come out recently, but in my personal opinion is that you can't get so granular on a specific part of town that it becomes a penalty for certain folks versus a wider spread smaller increase across the board. You know, we all take advantage of a lot of the services that the town has.

How do we spread How do we spread that out among as many people as we can to have the the overall impact as low as possible. You know, the the reclassification is going to be is going to be interesting for me. You know, I'm I'm looking forward to seeing exactly how competitive we are. I brought this up at at I think our joint meeting, Jim. You know, I don't want to

be the highest guy on the street as far as salaries go, but I also don't want to be the lowest. And right now we're kind of bouncing off you know, in certain areas of town we're bouncing off the bottom a little bit. And what that does is we got a lot of Yeah, we've got a lot of competition from a lot of businesses, people that are going from public sector to private sector because of um

benefits and also other towns.

question.

You know, the salary can be one thing, but if [snorts] we're looking at 50 grand here and 50 grand somewhere else, but then our insurance split Yeah.

they have a 75-25.

Yeah, money money's one thing. I I agree. But, the unknown is another and the insurance can really cause a a big problem with people getting anxious about the position they're in because when you have a high deductible plan, uh it's all well and good to save money, you know, every month for a high deductible plan. However, you've you've just you know, changed the aspect on exactly

what your family could potentially be subject to if God forbid somebody gets sick. So, you know, all those things obviously come into play, Chris.

Thank you.

So, I know from the school committee, the school district's point of view is we certainly over the years have have trouble attracting and retaining highly qualified staff. Um and it's competitive. School districts education's getting more and more competitive. Um and I know we and I just bring that up where the I think where we are the largest um department in town.

Um and certainly that Correct me if I'm wrong Jim but I there are there have been instances in which staff have have walked away just like I'm sure from some of the other departments that offers have been made and because of health insurance benefits and it's key because these these people if if they already have a a state retirement or a county retirement, they're they're going to

want to stay in municipal service or or state service and they're going to just go to another they're going to go to another community. Um so, we certainly have to keep that in mind when trying to to attract the best candidates for sure and I think that's that's what all the residents want for the this town.

Jim.

I think it I think it certainly is a competitive environment for educators now more so than it's ever been.

Um and we're seeing that and I think that um while we're not included in the in the classification and compensation study, uh we just did collective bargaining last year and have lots of data about what how we compare with other districts and unfortunately we're below average. So, we're well below average in compensation for staff and our and our benefits package is not as good as

some of our, you know, competitors. So, that that puts us at a distinct disadvantage for sure.

And now we share are you able to share that information? Are we locked step right now?

I absolutely can share that. Yeah.

Yeah, that that would be good. Just to give us some perspective, you know, as we talk about One Dartmouth, we want to make sure that we're we're communicating properly between all levels of town in order to make sure that we're fully educated on on what the pitfalls are as we go forward. So, One of the other things that we've talked about when we talk about taxes and this we'll be hearing the select

board will be hearing more from the assessors in a couple weeks, but it's one thing to look at our taxes that we charge, you know, assessor lens, but keeping that in mind when we're looking at other communities, we need to know what other communities also. So, we're talking about apples and apples is what are the like we also have a um we have our property tax bill, but then we also have our water, sewer, trash fire.

So, we have to think about all of those.

Don't forget the beach stickers.

And as each of those go up, what is that total picture?

Right.

So, it's I think it's a little um when we say, you know, we have the the our tax our tax base is low.

Yes, but how does it compare to do do others?

Are they including the fire tax in that?

Is there, you know, do they have these water and sewer bills or is that, you know, Absolutely. You're going to do a comparison, do a comparison.

to know all of it.

Yeah, Janine.

We also have to take into account, because I've seen in the past where we compared ourselves to other towns and we didn't take into account whether or not the other towns had a split tax.

So, we say we're low, but then you look at other towns, you have to say, is their tax also split between commercial, industrial, and residential? It's a big difference.

Yeah.

Good point.

Um what about the um the audit, Gary? Uh did the did the Does anybody even look at the audit?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You know, I mean, I obviously you guys do, you know, but Yeah, I mean, I think I think this is the first time in a long time that um I had recommended that the audit be public.

Okay.

And um Well, the audit the audit's always public.

It's always public. We've put them public. We haven't done a presentation.

Presentation, right, yeah.

Yeah, the audit's always the audit's always public, that's correct. But, whether or not, you know, there's a uh you know, a a version that we can put out there that's a little bit more explainable.

Nobody wants to go through 800 pages of It it's a lot.

Yeah.

It's a lot.

Yeah. Uh maybe that's something we can work with our auditors, maybe we can pull out some key points uh of the audit that makes it a little bit more user you know, reader-friendly.

So, what would be a just to throw a typical one out, uh a Nordic conclusion from this year?

So, If there is unlike last unlike previous years in previous years' audits, they're no longer required to um to submit a management uh comment. They used to.

They no longer have to, so they don't.

Oh, you like the executive summary?

Right.

So, we have to we pull through that audit and we comb through both the accountant and I and and look at uh key items where they you know they want to make recommendations for uh for instance they they made a recommendation for collections of the water and sewer bills uh where we were also collecting water sewer bills. We were also generating them in the same office. So we then split that out. So we read through that

and and and have conversations with them when when we have a final meeting.

But that's kind of behind the scenes.

Mhm.

If we're looking for a document that's a little bit as I mentioned a little more user-friendly people can understand the audit.

We can probably put something down.

I mean cuz they're watching a a minute you know 2-minute presentation or 5-minute presentation on TV.

And are they really understanding the entire audit?

Right.

Uh one of the reasons why I bring it up is that um you know after going through it it's a lot. Yeah. Um so an executive summary would be would be really helpful. When we talk about you know clarity and communication with with everything that the town uh have to has to deal with. Um you know I I it's always helpful um to let the vendors know that there are eyes on this. You know traditionally the

audits for some of the non-profits that I've been involved in you get the audit you vote on the audit the audit goes in the book and nobody even looks at it. So the fact that we have eyes on it that we're making recommendations to them about how we want it presented to us I think it's really important um because now there's you're buying scrutiny.

Right? Uh and if if we're not showing them that we're paying attention to it and that we want certain things included in it then you lose that scrutiny as far as I'm concerned. And I you know any anybody can uh you know talk to that. Um so uh so I think that was important. One of the things that for me in this in this past one I I didn't see anything about an

alert for the enterprise funds.

You know I went back and I looked at it and said geez where you know what they throw even a yellow flag at us and say, "Hey, you know, we should be looking at this."

Um I didn't see it. If it was in there and I might have missed it.

Um but as long as they know that we're looking at it and you know, it's important to the town to to have this um this outside [clears throat] party looking at it.

Um the scrutiny will will be there. Um but I think it's good for town, like you said, to have it available to all of the the taxpayers so they can look at it. We have a lot of of accountants in this town so they I'm sure it'd be nice Sunday reading for them. But um but it's important to have that. The executive summary would be great. So that recommendation um

can be made to them as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, oh okay, sorry.

This might not be completely related but specific to the water and the enterprise fund is I think a lot of town residents have no knowledge of what an enterprise fund is. They think that the water sewer department just arbitrarily raised Mhm.

Um I think it's somehow, I know it's an education thing, we need to make folks understand how and why that happened. I know we all probably think we explained it and those of us who sat in meetings think it's explained but not to the town residents.

Well, I think I think this this DCTV um portion would be good if Carrie, not to put you on the spot, but if you can give us like a high-level quick and dirty on exactly what an enterprise fund is, so people that aren't involved in it like we are, um have a better understanding.

Yeah, sure. So um enterprise funds have been around in state legislature for quite some time. I would say at least 30 to 40 years. And the idea was to have them self-supported on rates, uh whether it's trash, water, sewer. Um DCTV is also an enterprise fund so that they're self-supportive so that um it's pulled away from the general fund. And sometimes you'll see a lot in a lot of

communities where those um enterprise funds are underperforming. So they they have to be on their own.

They don't they don't draw down the general fund. That's really what typically what happens with a lot of these when they were first developed.

And so Dartmouth back in the day did that and and not necessarily because the the funds were underperforming but because they wanted to track them separately and they wanted to make sure that you know water is being charged properly, the sewer is being charged properly and and ran them as separate entities. Almost almost almost like the fire districts. You don't consider a fire district an enterprise [snorts]

fund but in essence it runs the same way. Obviously they don't have their own town meeting but they're separated from the from the general fund for certain reasons and some of those are the ones I just mentioned.

Mhm.

And and you know getting back to Heidi's point, you know, you really when you do a comparison to other towns you need to have all of those things taken into consideration and separate us from the ones that that really don't make sense from a comparative standpoint. Chris?

Gary, for the you for the anyone watching, enterprise funds, are they just meant to maintain the operations or should they also be should we be tapping them for capital as well in an ideal world?

So in typically well in all enterprise funds they have their own reserve fund.

So they generate their own as we generate free cash they retain they generate retained earnings. So any kind of capital improvements that are that are done in those particular enterprise funds are supplemented with either a borrowing a conventional borrowing that they're allowed to have or through retained earnings. So anytime you see a capital project that's that's being requested from CIPC it the funds are

being drawn on each one of those separate retained earning accounts. They all have their own separate retained earnings.

like it's we're asking it but it's some is out of the general fund.

Yeah yeah yeah it's through the funding source it's through the enterprise.

Yes.

Understood.

that the enterprise fund is not bound to um is 2 and 1/2.

Our general taxes are bound by that, but enterprise funds can change uh can fluctuate beyond 2 and 1/2. So, when you talk about some municipalities do not have enterprise funds and their problem is that they're they're bound then for these departments to function solely within the 2 and 1/2.

So, there is a benefit in that way that when those enterprise funds additional funding is needed, they can request beyond the 2 and 1/2%.

But, the issue for taxpayers is more money out of your pocket regardless as you as you were alluding to.

Yep. And that's why we have to be, you know, we include per thousand, we have to include these others as well.

Yeah. Um one of the things I'm interested in I don't and I never heard who actually controls the fire districts.

I mean I know there's a history of three three different ones.

But, it seems to me there's a lot of duplication. Uh and the original as far as I can figure out the when they were originally started, there was a good reason for it because there were long distances involved.

them now, there's still a good reason for it.

That is that is Well.

beyond our purview.

Oh, it is. Okay.

Absolutely. They are independent. Three independent organizations. They are.

have to make I'm not saying we do this, but you'd have to make a case at each fire district why it Yes, you would.

Right.

They're very specific on what the zone that they cover.

Yep.

The fees are all different at each of those districts, those three districts, depending on which one you your amount of money is different. And their responsibilities are different. So, some have a retail quarter, some do not. Some include schools, some do not. Some include the university and the sheriff's department which are not taxed the same way.

So, it's a headache.

Yeah, I got it.

Yeah. Well, it's a good point, right.

But, I mean, it's not without merit, but Well, I think it it it should be on the list someplace. Uh I don't know that can be on our list.

Not Well, it should be alluded to cuz it's it's what we get taxed when you add it all up.

It needs to come from the people within the district because but you have to Exactly.

Those are the people who are paying. And just to the public enterprise funds, one of the major points is if you're on a well and you have your own septic, you're not paying for town water and sewage. So, and if you're not using the dump, you have a personal pickup service, you don't pay.

It's a a good way to not charge people for things they're not using. Um Which Which on the flip side of that I I could think of other things, too.

then on the flip side of that, it makes it difficult when we're saying overall we need to look at more funding to protect to um correct an issue that we have in town, and then you have people that say, "But, I don't use that service."

Yeah, but we all use the roads.

Right.

And we all benefit from the schools whether we have children in the schools or not.

And that can be a hard sell.

crime, um Yeah, it it you know, it it's good point um and there's been several studies done that have made the same argument for public water and sewer, actually. Cuz when you have public utilities, you get more economic development. You know, t- take the Cape as an example. They've they've struggled to significantly with wastewater. And one of the reasons that they a lot of towns in the Cape

don't have significant economic development is that reason, exactly. If you're going in with a large-scale project, you're putting a wastewater treatment plant a small wastewater treatment plant. They don't do it. So, so there's a there can be a benefit argument made to public utilities are better for everybody in town, too. But, you don't see um we can when we look at the overall

cost, we'll look at things like um solid waste.

We won't include water and sewer because that's that's true truly based on the user. And no community includes your sewer in in your in your tax bill.

There's you always pay a separate sewer bill. There are some communities that include your your solid waste. You know, solid waste is included in your general tax bill. You don't pay a separate fee for that. So, we can look at that, but I would say we steer clear from water and sewer cuz in any community, if you have public water and sewer, you're paying a fee for it. It's never included in your in your in your

tax bill.

And the fire district's another important note, too, cuz if you most communities, that's part of your just regular tax bill.

I've always felt that the the fire districts questions in this town, in my view, have always been like a third rail.

Right? And a lot of people will agree with me, some may not. But, you know, the fact that Brian brings it up is an important thing for this group. And the reason I say that is because I don't think we need to have anything off this table for discussion. I'd like to see communication across every aspect of what the general public is paying in this town as a property owner, whether it's in an enterprise fund,

the districts, the taxes, anything like that. Um because it's uh it all goes to the the pressure um brought on your family budget, whether you are on septic or sewer, whether you're taking water, you have a well. I I To me, it doesn't care. I'll defer to the group, but I think I don't think there's anything off the table when it comes to trying to figure out exactly how, even in this case, how we can save

the district. How can you know, can the town in certain areas you know, for discussion.

Can the town in certain pockets of the service that they deliver assist the districts in our town in order to help them lower their expenses. Because if we can lower their expenses then and we can discuss that with them and it makes sense, then we bring it up and and we do it because it's lowering the the overall cost to the um the citizens.

Um I don't have any specific examples.

We do some of that. I mean, so dispatch is a good example. You know, we do all the dispatch, you know, for the fire districts. So, that's that's how it was at the police department. Um the collections, that goes all through the collector's office. That's centralized here. That's we prepare the bills. The assessors have um the independent hearings for each of the districts.

Uh we send out the bills and we and we take in the collections and pass on the money over to the to the district. So, there is certainly some of that already.

Um and I So, so there's already overlap and and and even the third rail discussions that we might be able to have yet.

So, that's good. So, it's Maybe a way to do it would be as I was suggesting is look at the things that we can control, that we have control over.

Uh things that are subject to market forces and things that are not and then look at create another list saying these are the other things that impact the bill like fire districts and all the other Absolutely.

And then use that as a a way to uh inform people about what they pay.

If you want to clarify the um information about the fire districts, cuz it seems like everybody has the thought about it.

Um then I highly recommend you bring in the three fire chiefs and or representatives from their prudential committees which manage their budgets of each district and they can and answer the question so we're not guessing.

Yeah, and I'm sure they'd be more than willing to actually do that. So that That would be good a good idea to have them come in and and at least for the public you know, we we know a lot about exactly what their budgets look like and things like that and how they're administered. But for the general public it might be a good opportunity for them to They have a budget process much like the

town does. They have an annual meeting much like the town does.

Yeah.

And of course they have monthly meetings.

Yeah, so I for me anyway just before we get into the income side of this stuff in or regionalization or anything like that.

Jim, can you talk a little bit about any of the outliers that you have in in the school department? I know that salaries are are always top of the list or at least one or two but Yeah, I mean we you know, so we settled all our collective bargaining agreements last spring as I mentioned and and um that was the first time that we had settled contracts before the expiration of the contracts in a long time.

So that was a good accomplishment but being that we are um sort of below average in terms of of what we offer those contracts were by for instance the teachers contract which is the biggest contract that we have was 3% 3 and 1/2% 3 and 1/2% over over the 3 years.

This being the 3% year right now that we're in fiscal year 26. So the what happens with those contracts is that there are also steps similar to other collective bargaining agreements we have in town. So a 3 and 1/2% raise plus folks moving up on steps and result is you have in the end that that contract costs about 4 and 1/2%.

So you you know, you're starting from there with that contract. And then we have other um some other contracts like the former teachers assistants, now called education support professionals, where they were really underpaid.

Um significantly. And so the larger adjustment was made on those contracts.

So then you now you're, you know, up above 4 and 1/2 percent. So salaries are 80% of our budget and and you can kind of figure out where this is going where, you know, you're approaching a 5% increase in salaries for fiscal year '27. And then in addition to that, you might have seen well there was just an article in the paper regarding special education costs um in Dartmouth Week.

Um but we've been over the last few years showing what our student population is is looks like in terms of how it's changed here in Dartmouth. And I think that it's important to to know that there are more kids that are low income and more kids with special needs in Dartmouth than there have ever been. And that that's increasing dramatically. Like the the it's it's um a pretty steep slope.

So for instance, in the last year our special ed population has increased 2%.

Now 2% okay, that maybe that's not a big number.

But the costs of educating students with special needs are very significant. So a 2% increase um can be I mean it it can be a huge budgetary impact.

Um one student can be a huge budgetary impact in in special needs. So so uh Well, with special needs Tim, the transportation aspect of it.

Transportation aspect is significant. Um the depending on the needs of the kids, uh what we do in the schools to support kids, it's more intensive than, you know than uh educating a student without special needs. And then and then there are cases where we cannot educate a student in in the schools and and have to, you know, send them to an out-of-district placement in which that cost can be $300,000.

Right. Plus transportation.

Plus transportation for one student.

Now, that's not the typical cost. Most But we have students that are $300,000 out-of-district tuition.

Um So, Wow. Those are those are the biggest, you know, um I think it's also important to note for everyone is that where this isn't these aren't arbitrary decisions that the district makes, right? That the school that Dartmouth Public Schools makes to place these students in alternative learning environments. This is something that there's there's a state process through the IEP individual education

plan. And that this is something that it is worked out and ultimately, certainly we can deny services. That that's something that that that could happen.

But ultimately, parents do have the option to take it to the state.

And just like other things that they the state can can rule on it and ultimately we we we're still responsible. So, I just I just I think it's important to note that these aren't these aren't decisions that, you know, are are taken lightly.

Yeah. Just can I can I ask a a question on the on the special on Sure.

Is the is has the has the analysis been done uh whether it's um advantageous for the town to educate them in-district Yeah.

than send them out Yeah. A great A great example of that, and I I was going to bring it up next.

Was so we created a couple of years ago a program called the Atlas program. You might remember Gary in the budget process.

So this program educates students who are who don't graduate high school on time but we're responsible for till the age of 22. That's that's the law.

So we're our Atlas program provides services for these kids to gain life experience to hopefully you know have a more productive as well in the Atlas program.

have a have a more productive life you know at once they age out at age 22.

So we created that program a couple of years ago and we knew what was you know what students were were you know headed that way because they've been in our district. So This year we have less than 10 kids in the program. Next year we're going to have 14.

Wow.

Now those kids minimum cost would be $60,000 each if we send them out. Minimum. And most of those students would need additional services.

Sometimes a one-to-one education support professional sometimes but they would they would all need additional services.

And it's the law that we educate them till they're 22.

It is. So you know it's on as as we were talking about the out of control out of our control list.

That was one of the things that I already jotted down for myself to you know to report back. But but you know we're saving a great deal of money in that program. But in our budget process and in for this year which is not yet public we're meeting with the budget subcommittee next next week, but I'll share this one.

Those 14 kids, we can't effectively service those kids with the staff that we have. So, we are proposing a job coach position who'll be able to drive those students to employment opportunities to you know, learning to go to the grocery store and shop for themselves, learning you know, learning all daily life skills. Um but we just can't manage 14 with the existing staff. However, it's still a

good investment, right? Because cost of that job coach is going to be less than what Yeah.

it would cost to do that. Yeah.

never mind four.

you know, four additional. So, so um anyway, yes is the answer that we do look at that.

There are challenges to that. Um we have two open um special ed positions now that we've been unable to fill all year.

Um I think that speaks back to the, you know, competitive nature of our employment here. Um you know, those people can make more money elsewhere and have better benefits. So, um we're not getting applicants.

How how many overall positions do you have available through the district?

Th- Those are the only two long-term vacancies that we have. We, you know, occasionally something will happen throughout the year, you know, we might have a couple other things posted, but those are the only two that, you know, we've not managed to fill at all. But what I have done throughout, you know, my 15 years here is always budget the savings from um potential vacancies. So, if we know

about a resignation or more likely we'll know about retirements during the um you know, during the budget process, we'll budget savings there in those positions.

We're not getting savings anymore. So, the people that do apply are coming in at the very high end of our salary schedule.

Um, so, the limited pool of applicants, it's not like it used to be where you could hire a teacher, uh, you know, who Yeah, step one has a mass maybe a master's, um, but, you know, fresh out of school, that's not happening. There's There's nobody Nobody going to work here for that for what we pay. So, um, so, we're paying high end, so, hence, we're not We're not seeing that savings, so, that's sort of disappeared

from our budget process.

Nothing's negotiated. No No negotiation there. Having gone to the, um, the Dartmouth day at Voke, um, Mr. Watson explained that, you know, they're going to be looking in the future at an an addition or renovation to the school.

They're not looking for a total rebuild, but they're going to be have significant renovations because the population is going up. Well, of course, that a percentage of that cost comes to us.

He was like, "Well, don't worry, that's not for like 5 years." Well, that is a problem for us cuz our long-term I think is back to long-term planning. Include that in year five. That 5 years from now, we're going to be expected to pay a bill that's coming from Voke.

Yeah, it's important because you You see what happened down in Rochester.

Mhm. Yes.

That number. And And everybody was kind of caught off guard.

Yeah.

Right.

Uh, well, everyone knows that the largest hunk of money we pay is uh, schools. I think it's running about what, 57% now of the total budget? Yeah.

Somewhere around there.

Somewhere.

Um, and I I would venture to say that most people in this town don't understand how the budget operates and how much control the town actually has when it comes to state requirements or anything else. So, the first reaction is oh, we got to fight it every year about budget override, but people can't really understand it because the number of students are going down.

So, I think one of the things that this group has to do on some level is educate the people in Dartmouth who have a stake in the schools excuse me, in the school system to [snorts] understand what the constraints are and why the budget goes up because we can't fill positions. The state requires that we send people out that have the special needs.

I'm sure there's a host of things that I don't I don't know about that we just don't have any control over. And um I think if people understood that understood I'm like I I think I have an idea of how they should understand it.

Um we would have less of a battle every year about increasing the school budget.

To your point, Brian, I think I would ask well, I guess I would ask how what do you think is the best way to do that cuz we've tossed this around over the years about educating educating folks doing a road show being transparent would would getting more documents on the on our website kind of you know more transparency what like What's the best way?

Not right now.

But I think I think the issue the biggest issue for me is it's a structural deficit because I did I projected the data one day. I don't know I don't have it off the top of my head. But the school budget is growing like half a percent more than everything else.

I think you and I had conversations previous meetings.

Yeah, so I think people have to understand why that is happening. It's not just because you guys on the school committee make arbitrary decisions, which is why I'm kind of suspecting most people are squawking that they make arbitrary decisions cuz they really don't know.

So, I think there's a value gap.

The the schools have to somehow We all have constituencies for what what we want to spend money on and I think there's a value gap that the that the schools have to somehow explain to the to the town why things are the way they are and why that number is going up and will continue to go up.

I think I think it's going to be very important that we speak for every department.

Because why is this? Why do we have to pay more this year on trash than we did last year? Why are the Why is there talk about the orange bags going up to $5 from $2? Why is that? I mean I think there's a lot of things that we have to explain as a town. And I think we can do that. I'm just thinking off the top of

my head. We can do a DCTV thing and then DCTV can roll it out. People can find it on YouTube. But what I'm going to tell you is having rolled out long-term capital roadshow. We had three. One focused on the schools, one focused on DPW, one focused on um General government.

General projects. The turnout in person was pitiful.

Awful. I was at the one at the middle school.

to ourselves.

Yeah, but how many clicks did it have on YouTube?

Right. Right. So, that's why I'm saying the turnout No. So, and when you read the feedback that people posted afterwards on social media It's You know, people just continue to spitball information.

Well, I think uh it has to be a continuous flow of information. It can't just be So, um that means annually, whatever it is that explains it.

needs it more than annually.

Well, I'm just saying at least annually, uh you explain uh the town explains how the budget is put together and how our hands are tied in certain areas. And they and they also explain to people, I think 70% of the folks that 70% of the families in Dartmouth don't uh families uh 70% of the people that live in Dartmouth don't have any connection with the schools. Uh and somebody has to and that's what I

was talking about a value gap. Somebody has to explain to those 70% of the people who don't have any connection with the schools why it's important to have good schools.

So, I guess we can explain it all day.

It's a matter of how do we get people to listen.

Right.

How do we How do we get people to listen in is that a function of I don't I Do Do we start at one of these meetings? Do we go down a list of just some of the fixed Well, Jim kind of just went over some of the fixed costs.

Yeah.

But I don't know. I Let's think about it. We don't have to solve it now.

at it this way.

Right.

I I look at it's funny sometimes the way I look at things, but uh talk about Fones Corner Road. Oh, the traffic Traffic's awful. Traffic's terrible. I ain't going to get stuck in a line. All right. On and on and on and on. I look at that as a point of success for this town. You know, the work What What's the [clears throat] alternative?

The alternative is always there's no traffic on Fones Corner Road. What does that mean? The mall's dead.

Right.

Guess what? Your taxes going up because we don't have the income from the commercial base. So, there's always a flip side. I appreciate the fact that, you know, uh school department is looking at um ways to keep these positions competitive. And it when you're not at the highest level for uh one piece of it, say the salaries, uh but you're trying to backfill with a better benefit program. You're trying to um hire

uh the education specialist to assist those um you know, top-tier uh salary positions. Um that all has an impact. I like the you know, we we talked about the uh the police department uh in this last year. And it was [snorts] interesting to me to hear that the the police in this town want to work in this town. They you know, it's not just because of the money. They could probably go somewhere else to make 10

points. You know, but they choose not to.

Um and I I find the same thing with the with the school department. Um with the salaries and the people that are uh working in the school department. Uh as long as we continue to look for ways to backfill these positions with the support. Uh support is a huge thing.

When you've got 30 kids in a class and you have zero support, guess what?

They're looking somewhere else, you know, in in my opinion.

And I think and after listening to my wife I get it.

Um but go ahead.

To your point, Mr. O'Neal, that I think that you'll find across these departments in this town, including the school department, including the police department, that a lot of the people that work in these departments grew up in this town and they're taking the hometown advantage.

Yeah.

What 100%? I I guarantee you that a significant number of these staff that work across all of our departments take a lower salary because they grew up and they're giving back to this town.

And and their family is here. And so when we look at that, that was an argument I had made at one point when we were talking about do we need an override to fund the benefit package.

I'm sitting there looking at the teachers holding signs knowing they're residents of Dartmouth.

So I'm taking with one hand to put in another.

So I'm going to give them a better benefit package by raising their taxes.

You know, it doesn't that's like I got my hand in both pockets.

Right.

So, let me just finish on that that thought with Ponus Ridge Road. Uh the viewership for these meetings and the participation that we have at some of these community meetings is pretty low. I look at that one way. I look at that that we have in these type of meetings. You know, that we did a road show in general that people could see it online.

You know, that maybe you didn't get a lot of viewers online.

To me that's success. If people were really PO'd about the amount that they're paying for their trash removal, then guess what? They were going to be at that DPW meeting, you know? So, there's there's a breaking point, you know, there's a breaking point for interest in people. They all have their own lives. We have our own lives. You go on, you do the best you can. I think that the level of participation

participation at some of the town meetings is indicative of the amount of information they have available to them.

And the fact that you got people that care.

You know, they're they're doing their job. They're working hard to to make sure that those tax bills are as low as they can be.

You know, they know that we're not going to go out and and go for, you know, two and a half override if we don't need it.

You know, so we're going to try and ring out as much as we can in order to make it make sense.

same token, I think if we if we need a two and a half override, we have to start that as early as we possibly can.

agree.

the reasons. And if it's and if it's being driven by the largest department in the town, then people have to be very transparent about why that's being uh why it's being driven by the biggest department in the town and why it's important. That's what I was talking about a value gap. Why it's important for not only the people that have kids in the school, but also for people who live in town,

uh why it's important to have good schools.

Yeah.

And you got to start that right in the beginning.

Yeah, I I I think that um the meeting that we had with the select board, the joint meeting, brought out some of those those reasons.

Um in in my opinion, it's always been about uh property values. You know, you have uh you have people willing to move into this town with kids. They're fighting to get into this town now if they can afford it. Uh they're fighting financially to to get in this town because we've got a system that cares.

Uh and we're doing the best we can to fund it properly and make sure they get a good education.

interesting but I mean there are things too like um if you go look at the population growth in Dartmouth, it's flat.

Yeah.

It's declining.

Yeah. Um And while uh people always talk about the value of their houses going up, it's a illiquid asset.

So, it can go up all it wants. You got to live someplace.

I think that number's probably going to increase over the next 2 years.

The way things are going, Brian, for sure.

But that my point is I mean, it's a good thing, but how does that affect me on a day-to-day basis when you're in Dartmouth? And I think Well, one of the things that you know you're talking about, which I I'm alluding I'm I believe you're alluding to the the building of a number of 40B projects. So, the issue with the 40B projects, depending on which project it is, is it can be built faster than

What is a 40B? Sorry.

sorry. A 40B project is the housing projects.

Um the 40B means that there's a component of affordable housing within the project. So, that's what the 40B stands for. So, those projects can be built much faster than any of the infrastructure that we need built in town to um support that. That will be built those residential structures will be be built before uh repairs or uh additions to the water treatment plant can be made before

whatever we need at a school where those particular properties are located can support an influx of new students.

I was I was at the two hearings with Heidi.

If you want to see if you want to see a lot of ZBA ZBA is well They are well attended.

Yes, they're it's it's just it's concerning just listening to them say they're proposing a 300 unit development on Hathaway Road. They have the 128 units I believe on Tucker Road. They have the one down across from Cask and Pig off of Route 6 Old Westport Road.

And you hear just not even schools. I shared with Jim. I said, I heard that you know, where sounds like we're approaching that 80% threshold at wastewater treatment and all of these projects are looking to tie into wastewater it sounds like. So to me of them are well.

That's That's That's concerning. They're taxing our infrastructure. They're water, sewer, our roads. Um I'm curious to see the next one in March about traffic.

is a state mandate again.

Mhm. It is a state mandate. 100% agreed.

But clearly these developers are There's a There's a component of low income. Not all 300 of those units No, I understand.

However, it is a rental. We get to count all 300 as a rental.

Yes.

So that's a better than the ones that are being built and sold outright that we only get to count 25%. But every time we build we've got numbers on both sides. So it it's And only when we achieve that 10% can there then be a stoppage. But the what the state is mandating as far as housing the state makes unfunded mandates of the school system.

Right.

Of the town. The state makes these grandiose plans, you know, when they were talking about bringing the rail system down and what the rail communities had to do.

You must do this.

We're not giving you any money to do it, but you must do this.

Well, I think that's why people in town have to understand what we have control over and what we don't.

Mhm.

And then make a decision on what they want to spend money on.

Right.

Yeah, you've got your you've got your housing production uh plan. You've got the the general master plan for the town where people can come out, talk about all these issues, uh become part of a solution versus just sitting on Facebook complaining about everything under the sun.

After the fact.

After the fact, yeah. Genie.

As Heidi already alluded to about the attendance at the zoning board meetings, how do we explain that difference?

Because I went to both types of meetings and it's a vast difference. So, why are they flooding the town hall for that versus coming to the other meetings? I know there's not really an answer to that question. I think it's clear. They are coming. It's not necessarily just in their backyard people that are coming cuz I know at the last meeting apparently we split who could come in the room versus who wasn't. So, it

wasn't just abutters.

Um but they were let in for a project the project by project. So, when when um Tucker Road was here, Hathaway Road was outside, then Tucker Road left, Hathaway Road came in, which Hathaway Road had just as many concerning people.

why?

Yeah.

Well, it might be union organizing.

I mean, it certainly isn't in their backyard about building people I could identify. They're not it's not people from other communities coming to sit. I can identify the residents that are sitting there. I'm there because I wear a different hat. I'm there because I want to be educated on all aspects and see what the concerns are.

Do you have a theory on why people show up for these things?

Because this is impacting them.

I showed up because I was on school committee.

Right.

Well, as I said, obviously it's not in my backyard either, and I went to the went to the meetings, but of the people around us and and hearing and watching their facial expressions, this is because that there's going to be more cars in their neighborhood, there's going to be more people in their neighborhood, there's going to be potentially lights, there's going to you know, a lot of

people are talking about where are they going to park, you know.

But how do you inspire them to go I mean DPW, I'm sorry, that's in everybody's backyard as far as DPW costs or school costs, that's everybody's cost. I'm just As I said, there's not a good good answer to it.

Well, I now I I think it's up to the town to make sure that all that sort of stuff is is somehow communicated better than what we're currently doing now, which means you have to be um have to be proactive. If you know there's going to be a budget increase, or you know that and it's being driven by two or three departments, you have to get out way in front of it and explain why that is.

Yeah. Yeah, I think the difference between the expectation and reality, that's where the frustration lies, right? You need to make sure the expectations are proper, they're at the right levels. I think the the level of communication that that I've experienced personally with these guys recently has been not recently, the last couple of years has been on on the incline, right? So

much more proactive than reactive, which brings the the frustration level down and the expectations.

And I think somebody ultimately has to say, "Guess what? We're not going to have cheap taxes here Dartmouth anymore."

Yeah, we're trying like hell.

Yeah.

You know, I think I think we all are. I think we're all trying to keep the numbers you know, to to a level that makes all the sense in the world. When the state comes down and they tell you, "Well, you know, you're going to increase your tax.

You're going to you know, you're we're not going to give you any chapter 70, we're not going to you know, 91, forget it." You know, well, okay, how do we do that? You know, um without uh making sure that everything we have in this budget that we can control, going back to the original premise, that we can control is under control, and that we have a good stronghold on it.

I'm not sure exactly how long these these meetings are scheduled for.

I got a hard stop at 11:30.

Yeah, I think if if you probably a good idea to cut them off after 90 minutes.

What's that?

I think 90 minutes is probably a good Okay, so So good. So 15 So 15 minutes left, right?

So we're all on the same one the same lines frequency.

Of the meetings?

Of these sort of meetings.

Oh, that's something we we need to discuss.

What's that?

The frequency.

Frequency.

And time.

Mhm.

Yeah.

And where.

And when.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, obviously it all comes down to exactly what your needs are. Um you know, the information that you need uh to present to people, uh to talk about um you know, the the the the issues that we have in town, um the things that we need to illuminate for the public and make sure that these uh the some issues uh come across in the in the public uh that may not in other

department meetings. Um that's an important aspect to this. Um I I'd like to talk a little bit more about uh regionalization, you know, what opportunities do we have uh regionally.

I know that we did some work with uh with our HR departments uh with the school department in um throughout the town uh that you know, may have had a a pretty positive impact on both. Um things like that, what opportunities do we have uh between parks and DPW? Are we making sure that we're taking advantage of all of those things in order to drive overall expense down?

Um I I'd like to get, you know, some some uh more data from from Gary and and Cody about those types of things.

Uh-huh.

Well, sadly, I I would think that right now in lieu of our in June my goal would be that in June the bag and you know, our budget advisory group would be able to include a letter to town meeting members or speak at town meeting about what we've learned, what we've um looked at for expenses, where we have found that we can um share costs, how are we looking to save the taxpayers' money,

and ultimately that we are supporting the budget that's being presented that day.

Mhm.

To do that, I don't think we can just meet once a month.

No.

I think we need to meet more frequently now in preparation of that. I was looking for the end in mind. And then I think after that, there's a period of we can return to a monthly meeting just to keep our foot on the gas. I don't think this is a group that we can say, "Our job is done."

Mhm.

After we're looking at the FY27 budget, okay, what did we learn? How much tighter is FY28 going to be?

Because one of the things that although the school department had has negotiated um contracts for the next 3 years, on the town side, we only negotiated a 1-year bridge contract for this year.

Mhm.

So that we could get the information from the comps and class study, we could get over the um hiring of a town administrator, so we could kind of right the sails on our our side of the ship.

Um so we then will be going into negotiations.

Um and I think then this committee is going to be again after you know we go through June, looking ahead at FY28. I think there'll be a lull, and then we'll be back to twice a month.

That goes to what you said, Brian, about trying to make sure that the public's aware of what's coming, what's going on, and educate.

I think, in my opinion, I think the the biggest department in the in the town budget has to be If we have that If we all agree there is a structural deficit, then we have to really be able to explain early on why the biggest department is having that structural deficit, and this is why things are going to go up in terms of taxes, and what I would like to avoid is like having a battle every

year about two and a half overrides.

That'd be great.

If people If people If people can understand why But I think we have to look across the Commonwealth.

The Dartmouth public schools are not the only school department over 50% of the budget. That's pretty standard across across. So, some of the things that Dartmouth is dealing with, the increasing cost of special ed, the increasing cost of is what they're all doing. But I think the other piece is going back to the one Dartmouth.

We can't have the best school department in the Commonwealth at the cost to every other department in our town.

So, we have to know what do our other town What do our other departments need?

Like, I'm hoping we sit here and we find out per capita, we have the right number of officers.

The officers have the right amount of training, the right amount of weaponry, the right amount of of cars, or whatever they need. I want to know about DPW. I brought up at our last select board meeting a concern, a constituent concern, about the lack of um shoveling across the bridge. Like, we want to go after our residents, but if we're not taking up over town stuff, we have to do that. So does DPW have enough

people? Do they have enough equipment to do that?

They used ours.

Right.

My equipment and it was broken. That's why it didn't get done.

Well, there's shared services, but we have a problem if it's broken.

Just going back going back to the schools again. Um I don't think our objective is have the I mean, we'd like to have the best school district.

Yes, we would. That's what I'm saying.

I would be happy in the top 20.

Well, I I think if you Instead of what are we?

217?

No, we're not.

Oh, we're not.

Where?

We're in the bottom third.

So Not not in terms of academic success.

Oh, yeah.

I think I I which is what I care about.

Yes.

Yes. And I think if you I think spending has to be tied to outcomes on some level. Now, what that means is I don't know. Uh but I think people have to understand in the town that there are objectives to be met and when the objectives are met, the trends are going this way and it's worth spending money on.

Which I don't and I don't think people understand that.

So I I certainly My only concern with spending tied to outcomes are students are not outcomes. If I'm in a manufacturing business, okay? And I'm producing denim pants.

If I the pant comes out the other side of the machine with two legs and an a way to get in, whether that's in a zipper or an elastic, and my legs when I shoot them in can actually come out, I've had success.

That's we just heard about this program.

The students that are in the Atlas program, their outcome of being a productive member of society is very different than another student's outcome.

How about increasing the number of at-risk children uh that graduate?

I think one of the things that I know I I don't even want to say. That's a good point, but I we just need to be cognizant that's not the point of this meeting. Right, right, but that is the school committee's role to to do that.

And so, this is we just want to be careful of the duplication of effort.

Right, but you still have to tie whatever you're doing to objectives and and spending. Sorry.

Thank you for interrupting with that comment cuz I agree. Um we need to get back to the agenda I think if we want to depart on time.

Yes.

Thank you.

And there are important things to discuss.

Probably the meeting schedule if we you know, I don't time of day, days of week, and then I would recommend we schedule maybe the next four or five meetings if possible cuz it gets to be a very busy time of year.

I I would just ask for those of us who may have another may have another job.

You mean a day job?

Yes.

Um just for if we could do it first thing in the morning or later in the afternoon.

I I could do as early as 8:00.

I could do earlier. Whatever Whatever makes people happy.

Is it early or late? That's all I ask.

Early or late really depends on the day, honestly.

I could do three. I could do I could come as early as I just need to fit balance it off at the beginning or end.

I would like to suggest that we do it early at least until we get started and figure out what our agenda's going to be and then you can change it as you go along depending on the agenda.

All right. Uh next two at 8:00.

That sounds good.

Next two meetings at 8:00? Okay.

On what day of the week?

Uh what's today?

Today is a Tuesday.

Uh the 11th 13th.

All right.

So I'm sorry, you're looking at No, today's the 13th. The next one would be the 20th.

Are you looking at the 20th at 8:00 a.m.?

Yep.

Are we talking about Next two weeks.

Every week.

I think maybe do two.

Every other Every other week.

I think until we get started it would be good to do it If you you can do next I I can't do next Tuesday 8:00. I already have a meeting.

Not to say you can't meet without me but Right. But no, I think we need to be here 27th.

Do you have any more 27th 8:00?

Sounds perfect for me.

It just just depends on in when we do 210 at 8:00 also.

Yeah, 210 at 8:00. And then what's the other one next week uh two weeks?

Uh 27th.

8:00.

And same 24th February 24th.

And then we'll take a look at that. I know Nate um Nate had an issue with this uh time.

Well, until we get an agenda I think we should meet when it's convenient. And then when we have an agenda we can meet at other times.

He didn't say whether he wanted earlier or He wanted I think he wanted I think he was the evening.

In all honesty because he's The problem that we have is we've got a lot of salaried uh you know play.

input here. Yeah. And and our evening meetings are taken up by Agreed. We have no problem being here but we we get to there's only so many nights a week and well not even that just nights during the week we're already tied up a lot of those. So mornings and evenings We have a lot of coming up.

the second one was February 10th?

February 10th and then February 24th.

Oh so we did three.

And what was it? 10th, 24th and 2127?

Yes.

127, 210, 224.

At 8:00.

Um so what are the deliverables? Gary, you you had some information coming back.

Right?

We can give an update on further along in the budget process. We'll pull together some of those fixed costs. Jim will do the same on the on the school side. Um and we may have some other discussion points.

Yeah.

I'm also interested in as you go through the budget process um the departments that need infrastructure or human capital.

You know, I know that was something we always did at the school department. And so, when I'm asking for a reading specialist, and then I hear the the other school asking for something, and I go that that need is really more than what I need.

So on the one we we heard a lot of that on the one-on-ones with the with the department heads. For instance, I'll give you an example, the police department.

You know, they they're supposed to be at a compliment of like 76. And this is this is really you know, no fault of the of the hiring process, but they'll they'll get them in, they have to go to the academy. Then they come in and and they they just can't pick the the selection that they have is really not not they're not available for to to work as as police officers. So

they have to go back out to the academy.

So prior to COVID, it wasn't an issue. Now with COVID, you know, these these rules and and what the police department is looking for has gotten a lot strict stricter. So in in in a in a example like the police department, they they've came to to the to the table and said, "We wish we could have x amount of officers. We just can't fill those positions." And through the other departments, we've also Cody and I

have heard from you know, for instance, like a we're looking at a business manager for the for the DPW.

So not to say that we want to keep adding more positions, but we are hearing it from departments that are in need of human capital.

And that's important because it's not just a salary, it's the benefit package.

It's Oh, yeah.

Yes.

Can we can we make a start and make a plea to make a start on the things that we can't control?

Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll in the budget. I don't want a big detail, I just want bullet points.

And just you know, just to make sure that we're up here. You know, this is public. This goes to the point of us bringing up some things that maybe were talked about in departments, but um really not made public and the reasons for those things. We need to make sure this is as open, honest as as we can get it. Um because I think you know in the down the road

we're going to need we're going to need the people in this town to back us up on some on some things that are going to be necessary. So uh more information the better.

More transparency.

Yes, absolutely.

Uh so we've got uh we've got three dates, three times. Anything else?

the 20th February 27th, I'm sorry, January 27th, the 10th and the 24th.

The 24th 8:00 a.m. and DCTV will be on all of them.

Yeah.

Okay.

Oh, I one other question. Minutes? Are we going to have somebody from the town do the minutes?

Yeah, we have someone that will take the minutes.

so we'll have minutes uh at the next meeting to approve.

Uh well, within the next couple meetings. Yeah.

Okay.

know if they'll be ready for the next meeting.

Yeah, that's fine.

All right, anything else?

I think I have enough reason.

Motion to adjourn.

Second.

putting me in this position. I appreciate it. Uh motion is on the floor.

Okay.

All in favor?

I second.

All in favor.

Okay.

Thank you, guys.