Budget Advisory Group Meeting - September 29, 2026

All right. So, let's uh start the September 29th uh budget advisory group meeting. It's 501 uh meeting recorded here in room 3:15, not 3:04 tonight.

Uh first, uh piece on the agenda is the review of the efficiency RFP for the school department. We had sent out um a little bit late last time.

to everybody and um the school department um had a chance to uh take a look at it and um make some comments um sending information back to us uh that we received in the last couple of days. So um I I had a chance to review it. I I'm sure everybody else had a chance to to take a look at it and u my my first impression is um I agree. I I don't I

don't think there was much there that I I really didn't agree with. Um go around and ask uh ask for everyone's impression of the response from the school department. I think um I think the comments are sit well with what My initial intent was get it fact-based, make sure that it's coming from a third party um and um give this group along with the um the select board and any other interested parties a good idea of

exactly what the school department is up against uh not only now but into the future. so we can get a better idea of exactly what uh what the budget drivers are for for the school department. And the reason that we started with the school department uh is um obviously it's a it's a big chunk of the um uh the town budget uh so it makes sense to to start with the departments that have the biggest impact

budget. Um and I also um understand in in the the comments that uh school department shouldn't be the only department that we're looking at when it comes to efficiencies uh reviewing you know everything from uh all the department level information and try and collate this and get it in one particular area so that the town can look at it. Uh we can make better decisions going forward in the uh in the

budget process. Um I've heard from people after we started this group that problem that some of the public has is that the information is there but it's all over the place and they have a hard time trying to figure out exactly how to collate it, how to figure out exactly what the numbers look like. Um and that's concerning. Um so so hopefully the budget advisory group can come up

with a way to make this information more accessible u one place versus four or five different places to any other comments on on the initial thoughts from the school department.

Yeah. Could I start?

So good afternoon everyone. So I appreciate everyone taking the time. We sent it out last week uh to take a look at it. The budget subcommittee group of the Dartmouth school committee uh we met last week. We had a long discussion. Um and certainly we think that the um the intent of the RFP and the idea it comes from a good place. Um I think um O'Neal alluded to that. Um but the reality is

that the the the scope of it was just way too way too broad uh around it really pointing at you know like there are already concerns in about the school district and that certainly shouldn't be the case. Um so what we did do um is we put together thanks Mr. highly uh a centralized spot for the number a number of documents a number of audits reviews um that we're currently going through. I

know that some people are not a fan of DESIE, but the reality is Desi is the state agency. Um, so but it's not just DESIE. There's the town audit. There's CPAs that are brought in. Um, so one way or the other, we're going to put this up on our website. So, because I do agree that there needs to be a centralized spot and and I think um I can only speak

for myself. I'm not speaking on behalf of the school committee, but I do think that there needs to be a centralized spot on the Dartmouth public schools website where the public can go to and be able to access one spot where all this all this information lives, financial information, even some of the staffing information as well as all of our all of our NEOS report, our accreditation report for Dartmouth High

School. Um, but at the end of the day, you know, we want to work together. I I think that's the idea here. Um but we're we certainly are under a considerable amount of um scrutinism to begin with uh from all the the current audits that take place every year. Uh so happy to you know continue looking for some suggestions and ideas. Uh but I think everyone knows where we stand um you

know as far as the RFP as it's currently written.

else.

Um, thank you Chris is about getting everything in a central spot.

Thank you.

Everybody could benefit from that. I think that you obviously your group got together and did a good job of going over it, you know, pretty much line by line. That's that's fair because honestly I do think it needed it and you're right in as far as an overall impression that it needed to be I think the word would be neutralized were very good and they should be taken into account you know for the next

flavor of it. Um, I do still believe that we need to do something, you know, mainly because not as a target, but because they're the biggest part of the budget. That's that's really the reason.

It has nothing to do with any preconceived thoughts about that part of the budget. You know, I as a finance committee member, I'm sorry, I'm neutral. I don't have a favorite department. You know, I look at them the same, honestly. And if that's the biggest one, then that's a good starting point. That's really written in a different tone with some additions as well.

I certainly think that it needs to be across the board for all departments.

Is this I'm if anyone wants wants to go before I speak again.

Well, I want to say that I I liked what came over from the school department. um similar feelings towards the original document, but I thought that there were some frameworks that you were suggesting that maybe would help when we're looking at the other departments. And the departments, as I said the last time, that I'm concerned with may not be the biggest piece of the pie, but it's a a

wedge of the pie that um I don't feel I understand as well. And I think efficiencies that could happen in other departments that we need to look at as well.

So, um, did you want to I'll just I'll just conclude with, you know, uh, we're happy to to work together if, um, budget subcommittee, the school department, school committee to put something together and then, you know, bring it back. Um, taking some of what a little bit of what might have been in the original RFB, um, and then adding some more. Um, we can certainly look to that. Um, but that's that's really um I

have so um I still I think from okay if if we want to have a study done I'll go along with it. I don't personally think it's necessary. If you go through all of the um reports that have been put together, um many of the questions that we were asking are answered.

So I really think the scope very much changes if we can answer those questions oursel and maybe spend a little less money. And I think we discussed budget meeting that the future proposal should be more forwardlooking. Um because we have a lot of the data looking backwards and I also still want to point out and I think I pointed this out before that I believe DESIE is reliable. I don't

understand why people don't think that data is not reliable. Um, it's all reported on by individual schools to Desessie. Desi just collates it and uses it in different ways. Um, so I need to know if there's people who do not trust Desi on this committee and I would like to know why because I think it's inevitable that that data is going to be used.

I agree the data what whatever we do the data by a third party consultant that they're going to use is the 100% I've done these before in other it will be desi data or the data that Mr. highly gives them it's not a trust issue when it comes to Desi. I mean, believe me, I've done reports from Desi and looked and compared. I think it's more of an explanation that needs to go along

with it and a positioning on some of the reports that can be extracted.

you can no longer see straight and you can pull out all kinds of data and then it's like okay but it needs positioning I think in some cases not necessarily two different communities so much but I don't know just a deeper explanation on some of those reports I don't think you can just look at it and go oh oh I understand now I think it's a little more complex than that it's not that I

don't I distrust it. Of course, I realize how it's reported, but I think it has to be an explanation that goes along with it. So, we position it in respect to a way to understand it as compared to the budget. I think you brought up a really important point forward looking. We we've got all the data in the world when when we're going backwards, but we try and bring recommendations forward to either the

select board, the finance committee, or whoever whoever's the taxpayer. Let's face it, they're the ones that ultimately we're going to we're going to report to um you know what are the trends look like what are other communities doing uh that have similar trends relation to the school department but also in relation to the public works department in relation to the the police department you know what what are the

what does the data tell us now and in the past and how are we going forward because if the budgets tighten up which we I think we all agree that they will at at some point. We're already down.

We're already down quite a bit. Um, you know, the hard decisions will come later. You know, framing everything right now for the taxpayer, I think, is the most important thing. I don't think I don't think the committee was started properly. Uh, I'll I'll take the fall for that.

I I don't think that it was mechanically uh that we set it up properly and we just came out with the RFP on schools budget. So what I suggest that we do is we take the information that Jim had sent over and the school committee had sent over. Um, I work with Gary, Cody, um, and Ryan.

Uh, bring back, uh, I'm just throwing this out there as an idea, bring back, uh, the updated RFP incorporating those points. Um, bring it back to the committee, get, you know, a product I think that would, uh, that would satisfy most. Can I just add regardless of what ends up uh B, I think it is imperative that this committee in this town have the future outlook there. I the 40B housing uh just

new new construction, new new building in town, not just outside of 40Bs, but we need to take a look at long term five or six years down the road. I know there's I don't know where they are in the permitting process. I know there's some up uh Route Six by Cask and Pig uh that are under development already, but we we would like to know and and I know

Mr. Kylie has done some work with the um I don't know the planning board far as uh building permitting and how many how many three-bedroom units they're going to be built, how many twobedroom units are going to be built, how many what one or studio because those are the things that are really going to put us in the hole couple years down the road when we have an additional 100 students potentially

and you know going to one school in the north or depending on what side of Route 6 they live on. Um we may have to look at redistricting. So those are the things that I think are really important that we should be certainly looking at currently but also projecting out because I think that we'd be doing a disservice to the to the folks in this.

One of the biggest things looking forward is uh you look less so I think on the on the police side the capital capital use on the police side is a lot of equipment based uh the building's done so uh a big chunk there is is off the plate but uh with the new school uh with uh with with capital that you're going to need in the department going forward um how do we bring how do we

this is operational we've been just talking about operational But we're also we also need to meld together uh the capital expenses that we're all looking for uh to in school department but also the DPW. You know, when we look at the DPW, we we need to we need to find out exactly what those uh what the loans are going to look like, you know, over that 10 years at least. Uh try and figure out

exactly what the interest payments are going to be. Ultimately, at the end of the day, I'd love to be able to uh recommend uh to select board um you know, when when we get through the budget next year, this is this is what we project we're going to need from the taxpayer going forward.

I don't think right now there's one place that we can bring all that together.

And this, you know, we've been talking about the school RFP. Um, but what I'd like to do is uh on top of bringing um the comments together and cleaning the school RFP up is to to come forward uh with a um something similar to what I've been working on which is basically uh you know mission statement um the core responsibilities of this group uh what what the reporting is going to look like

um including the three studies. Now this this is up for discussion about how many departments do we look at. Um my initial impression is that we should be looking at number one uh the school department as we've spoken about um the public works department and the police station uh the police department because those are the biggest drivers of the town.

Brian had mentioned something about 80% 8020 we can take care of in in our discussions in the studies that we do reporting that we do 80% of our budget we're in pretty good shape I think uh and then on top of that we need a general government review a lot of the other departments I think we can do internally um you know we should be able to take care of the the libraries and

going out 10 years and what that cost is going to be most of that data I think the the most complicated departments in the town are those top three.

I'm throwing that out there for discussion.

That makes sense or not. I'm trying to get in my own mind a better uh synopsis of what we're doing with this with this group.

Well, I get I guess I have a couple of things.

is I think it appropriate for for it to be asked of this group who doesn't trust the I'm going to be even less broad than that and say why don't you trust the

If you look at things like I I didn't come prepared to talk about this. You look at things like um

if you look at something like improvement targets that they give you score based on English language student your student growth percentile maybe uh no I think it's got something to do with a blend all the all all these things together.

Are you referring to student achievement though?

Uh, no, it's not. It's It's something to do with based on how well they're meeting their So, you could make depending on how you read them, the report cards to like, but you can make a case for

school is doing okay. Most of the grammar high school has definitely problem but I don't see any but with the data you can drill down to find you can but it's but it's very difficult.

I spent hours trying to figure out and is that if I spend hours motivated to do this, uh I think people in town have a very difficult but I think that's certainly something that department could offer something to go through let us explain data.

Yeah. But it never comes up.

I can I can make a case high school but it's not very decain.

So when I look at the data, I think the data is probably there. What I would like to see is people administration, okay, we've got problems and this is what we're going to do.

very simple.

So Brian, let me first I don't want you to be quiet. I want to ask the question. So my my so for instance uh

that the superintendent is going to bring to its staff. So where I where I don't feel very comfortable is when you have similar data for the high school in certain areas that somebody isn't saying okay this let's I'm such English language students it's not not doing very well. Um so this is what we're going to do and if the current reading is this is what we're going to do in terms of programs the current

reading is percentage then we're going to try and I think the data is there.

So I'm not on the school committee. What I'm going to say is so your assumption is that the school department isn't articulating that?

Well I Have you gone to school committee meetings or watched them on because I feel that that information is shared at those meetings. So I look at DESIE data.

Now I've been on both sides of Desi data. I've gotten desi data when I was the administrator of three different schools in Dartmouth and I've looked at the desi data and and felt not happy with it and other times happy with it and other times feeling it doesn't I don't get it but at the same time it's a constant and I look at that and say the one constant thing that desi

data does tell us is that our department is underfunded.

So when I look at that when you look at the state average the state average of pupil that doesn't mean we're under usually when you do a budget it's to achieve certain things. So if you the budget said okay we have a problem we're doing this this and this to therefore we can logically expect that there'll be a that's the kind of stuff I don't what I was always and similar yeah similarly things like English language

similarly what I was always frustrated as a public school employee is that I couldn't mandate that parents fed their kids, got them to bed on time, took technology out of their hands, got them up in the morning, fed them, and got them to school on time.

I can't mandate anything that happens at home. Yet, the truency problem is not a school problem.

It's a home problem.

Yeah.

All we can do is call you and remind you that school starts at X time and your child was late or absent again and we can certainly petition the courts virtuous. That's the easiest and we the schools do I've gone to court with a family.

Unfortunately, I do have to leave. I have another commitment. I'm sorry.

So, so here is my thing. when I look at it and I look at that information and I see that the average the state average is why on um school department budgets and this is what Dartmouth has given which is under that.

Okay. What I feel I would need is to look at these other departments is what is the state average of DPW budgets?

What is the state average of library budgets of police department budgets?

Now, knowing that there are lots of different things that come in, not all DPWs cover all the programs that we have. They all don't have highway and water sewer. You know, some communities are totally um sewered and other communities are totally septic systems.

So there's a lot of apples and um zucchinis um as opposed to two fruits. So I look at that and say just like when we're trying to pick like districts or like communities, we want to look at those and find the like communities that are fairly similar to us and see what their budgets are like. And so we have asked the police department and they do have an a study going now

um which the town paid for in LA in the last uh at last town meeting to look at their department specifically.

Do they have for the territory? Do they have enough officers? Do they have enough lieutenants, sergeants, and what is the job description and arc of tasks that these officers do?

And then they'll get back to us.

Believe me, when those departments find out that they're underfunded and underst staffed, we'll hear right away from them. If they find out that they're overstaffed and overpaid, we may be it may be slower getting us um some data, but we very much want to do that with our DPW because we we don't know.

So, I I think the outcomes in each department that we can bring down to a point of understanding for not only the departments themselves who will translate that to the public and explain to them this is these are the outcomes for this department this is what's going in this is some point I'm I'm going to say that we're we're going to be in a position where we're going to have to make some

some harder decisions about staffing and things like that down the road. I hope not. But I think I think ultimately what the select board and finance committee are going to need from us is an understanding of if we have to cut X uh how is that going to affect the operation? Um if these outcomes are not great, what can we do in that department to make the outcomes better?

shift people around for a better outcome. So, I mean, I I think that that has to come out in every one of these department reviews uh to make sure that we're getting the big biggest bang for the buck because ultimately that's the only thing that is worried about it.

I think the school department has made the case that you are getting the best bang for the buck. um we do not spend as much per pupil as like communities. Maybe there's one like community that spells that has more um the money we do spend we are trying to increase good outcomes with better curriculum with um more PD for teachers which affects the teaching and the learning of the students which affects

test scores and um morale of the whole school and school spirit which if you have good school spirit you have less truency. Um, so I really feel like we've already made that argument. Like I know I've only been on the school committee for four or three and a half years, but I feel like I've heard the argument again and again and again. Um, if you need to hear it again, we'll hear

it from a different source. Um, but I do think there's another way to look at it.

It's the biggest driver like how can we make that better? I know that the schools every year rejigger their personnel to fit what's going on in that particular year. I know other departments do too. And earlier, probably this spring, we talked about, you know, efficiencies that can be made.

And I and other people brought up, well, many departments have already been making efficiencies year after year after year. The school department has a list of many of the efficiency weies we've already implemented. Um, and I just feel like I feel like this report that we're looking for is coming, we're asking for things that we already have in front of us.

And I really feel like the amount of money it's going to cost for this report is huge when we already have a lot of the data. Um, so can we I mean the school department has put together data which I think is accessible to the public in terms of how much how many teachers per student we have, how much spending per stu student, how much um, you know, how are transportation costs different from

other districts. Um, so yeah, and and you know what, I think a great majority of the points that you're making will make the whatever review is done a lot faster and hopefully a lot cheaper because the data that you have will be available to them. Um, Janine, I just want to go back a little bit to what Heidi was asking Brian about specifically about information in Desi.

Um, and as I said, this is not a trust issue. It's probably as I already explained it's more of a context issue and I'll give the example because when he was talking I'm I was thinking back to when I was pulling reports and what I was not understanding clearly I guess and you know the figure that we love to use is per pupil spending. We talk about that a lot. The ranking is always up

there. We spent and I sorry I should remember the number because we use it a lot. We're number what?

Oh I I it's all down there.

Whatever. Correct. So, of course, I dug into that to get a sense of it and I was a little confused and I just looked it up again to make sure it had hadn't changed. So, the per pupil spending, the number one area, town, city, whatever that has the highest per pupil spending is province town. They spend, depending on quite how you look at it, between $49,84 per pupil or 53. So somewhere in that

range depending on how you're looking at the number. So they're number one. And I said, "Oh my god." So Provincetown students are like exceptional.

And that's where no I started to wonder about the positioning. It's not that it's not important. It's that we're getting ranked and we're ranked below Province Town who obviously spends a considerable amount of money per pupil. um because this is the context part that never gets explained because they have a very low amount of pupils in their school system. So, it's not fair for us to always use that number.

And that's what I mean by context. It's not that the information is wrong. It's that people think, "Oh my god, Dartmouth must be awful because we're whatever number we are." But is province sound exceptional?

That's my point.

Right. Well, that's why when we look at the school department data and we they give us our DART um communities. So, it takes into account like communities and then we look at how we rank within DART. So, we would look at Province Town and then we look at what do their schools look like.

The numbers always presented is my point.

Okay. But in You're right. They they are presented differently and that's fine. I get it. I've done statistics. you go for the numbers that best suit kind of making an impact.

There's there's not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying you want to make an impact.

Even within DART, um we we're in the middle of spending. There are some that spend above and there's some that spend below which okay that to me is good I guess.

So I have uh just one other comment. You asked me about Desi data.

Yeah. Uh so I I don't know when I I spent quite a bit of time about a month ago just trying to understand what what the desi data has and what it what it puts out and one of the things I ran across was uh something that they do every year that evaluates public schools in the state against a set of improvement targets uh which the schools submit uh I think

annually um and the result is a single number between zero and 100 and that number is a cumulative rating.

Dartmouth's highest number in 2025 is 22 which means that it's not performing as well as other high schools in in the state uh in terms of that one measure which is uh making limited or no progress toward the targets that it um it submits to the state. So when I was going through this, I I never and it's made up of um high school completion, achievement on MCCAST, uh growth, uh absenteeism,

uh and a few other things. And so what I what I'm I'm trying to figure out is is that an important I don't know the answer and I don't think anybody here knows it, but is that an important statistic?

uh and if it is making limited or no progress towards targets, what does that mean to the high school? Because this was written specifically with regard to Dartmouth High School. And if if it is a uh a justified judgment or whatever the right words may be.

So I can give what is what I mean what I don't need the answer. I mean is it that's what so if it is then what are we doing to fix the MCAST? What are we doing to fix?

So none of the language stuff like that.

None of the numbers that we ever get from I I'm not someone I I am don't my feeling for the numbers are numbers can lie and lie use numbers. So I'm not usually a fan.

Right. Right. So what I'm saying is no is that it always takes a drill down. So when I was principal of Kushman school, which was at the time a one through five school, we surpassed all MCCAST results, but my number would have been very low because I was making little growth.

I was at the 96th percentile and the 98th percentile.

Okay.

It was very hard to move schools that started out at the 45th percentile and made it up to the 48th percentile got growth points. It was very hard to move the needle when you were already that much higher. So when I look at that I always have to caution you know what else is happening because the MCCAST is one measure and Dartmouth fortunately in all my years associated with it never

felt the need to teach to the test. We taught the standards and the standards is what are on the test and we were able to maintain in Dartmouth all of our extra act activities. That being said, next door in New Befford, as soon as they started with MTA MCCAST testing, they got rid of music in the elementary schools, everything in the middle elementary schools, so that they could have more ELA and math time.

All right. So, my only point in bringing this stuff up is there's data in here that would make me if I was running the schools, but I don't know what they I make me a little nervous like not meeting. Well, I bet Jim and June they've spent every superintendent I've worked with has been nervous about data.

Yeah. So, my point is what what data is good? What data should we be looking at to uh improve school performance and should that be driving um the discuss our spending discussion about outcomes and and where's the investment coming from?

Right. Well, for a very long time while Desi just one other point while Desi data talks about the schools and how the schools are doing uh it doesn't really provide the ability to say okay to keep running at a level that the school committee would recommend going forward five 10 years from now. This isn't what we see or this is what the contribution in taxes from the town should be to meet those

standards. And Desi doesn't do that. Uh so what I'm saying is to get a good fix in addition to DPW, police, and all these other departments. Uh what should the town be spending going forward on education to meet the standards that the schools have set?

Because you guys are the experts and that we as a public can say, "Oh yeah, they set these standards according to what we see. They're meeting the standards. They deserve to be funded.

These are some problem areas. they need to be funded more in those particular areas or perhaps there are other areas where they're doing very well and some of that money could be switched to someplace else.

So so that's that's my issue being because this has been my wheelhouse. I go back to John Silber in 1981 head of DESIE who said every student that graduates from high school must go to college and that was a huge disservice.

Yeah.

Because my thing was never that's the only goal. You are not worthy if you did not go to college. I was the first in my family to go to college. I wouldn't say that my parents were unworthy people, but that was the take in 1981. And the problem there is that we don't honor what everybody else needs. So I would say as the principal of an elementary school time and time

again was not even I didn't even go with the district when they choose college and career ready. I said um being a productive and meaningful citizen because you know I looked at that and it was frustrated with John Silbert because I said who ms your lawn? You don't mow your lawn but your lawn guy is important to you.

Your wife goes to the hairdresser.

Yeah.

She didn't go to college. The hairdresser didn't go to college but your wife's hairdresser is important to her. So we really need to honor in public schools all the kids are going to turn out.

Agree. because we need them all.

Yes, Gary. Yes. So I you know when I really thought about this whole process and um looking at the next 5 to 10 years what more what mostly concerns me is the infrastructure of this town not just the schools but water and sewer $60 million treatment plant 100 plus $200 million school and using this RFP or whatever document is generated as a tool to to you know for us to go out and

now try to sell these projects. Um, and right, it's two components. It's operations and it's also capital. But the biggest piece and what keeps me up awake awake at night from 5 to 10 years down the road are these multi multi-million dollar investments that the town has to make. Now, no one's going to look at a report from Desi and say, should we build a brand new school?

They're going to say, how is our school?

What what does the infrastructure look like? Do are we, you know, what does the heating elements look like in these schools? On and on and on. But I I think what what what the key outcome of this report should be is how do we then use that as a tool to sell the improvement of infrastructure in this town which is we know I mean we've heard it from the schools we've heard it from DPW we've

heard it from other departments that that's really where what we're lacking I think and and that's the biggest investment coming up in the next 5 to 10 years. The schools do a great job with the dollars that they're given. Um, and you know, Jim does a great job with the budget and the school committee does a great job. But what what I think we really need to focus on is make this

document a a document that will sell that later on down the road when we go to when we go to have to borrow and we have to, you know, push a school or push a treatment plant. That's where I think if we can get this document to to make that a readable document, people say, "Oh, yeah, you know, there is a need.

There is a need." And I think heavily it needs to be more on that and maybe a little bit on operations. You know, some on operations, but more on the capital piece of this. And unfortunately, a lot of the communities that don't get their schools passed or don't have operational overrides are lacking documents like this because they're going people are just, you know, it's word of mouth.

Well, you know, why why do we need a new school? You know, we don't need one.

Well, we do need one.

The infrastructure is at the end of the day, the infrastructure cannot last another 10 years. It's just it's just the way it is. I mean, we're talking circuit 19 1940s, 1950s. It's just not, you know, conducive to to learning or operations, especially if we're going to include an additional 1500 units and and now increase population. So, I think all these components have to be built in. I

think one is one is not more important than the other. And in my opinion, the capital outlay for this town is really critical for the next 10 years.

And when we go back to the town, we're going to need to bring it all together uh in one report. So I somebody sorry go ahead I'll just take five minutes. Somebody mentioned um zoning and uh development and I think it's a part that's missed to the general public about what does 1500 units look like in terms of what the costs are for people to go to school. uh and I think

it's missed uh and that you know so therefore you could even carry it down to the point of like saying okay if it costs that much maybe we should be looking at more over 55s uh communities and therefore how do we do that uh because it puts less of a you're not going to cut out people with kids moving into well a big piece of this too is like we

know we talk about well we don't we don't have to deal with the fire districts well this residents have to deal with the fire districts even though they're separate components they still pay for the operations of those fire districts. So even though they're different, it's the residents are still paying for that.

But I think u Chris's point of bringing all this stuff together to include things like zoning and and the kind of pro housing projects that we go after.

There are questions there are questions about how many students you actually get out of uh in their they're estimation

in the school area uh the enrollments currently but also now we're going to have to look back right look back in the ages try and find out where the pockets are. From what I saw the other day, uh 9 and 10 year olds were way way down. Um and we've got to make sure that we're taking all of that into consideration because if there were gaps, we've got to work with uh school choice and make

sure, you know, in the grades that we can affect with school choice, we we massage that enough to keep these numbers where they need to be. Uh we need to keep these jobs in town. We need to make sure the teachers um are paid well enough to to make the choice Dartmouth. Um and we don't want to eviscerate a system and have a collapse.

Uh and and I'm sure that can happen, but um so there are some fine lines here.

Yes, we are getting the development.

There's a question on how much of an impact it's going to be. I thought initially that it was going to be a lot worse. From what I'm seeing now, it it's not going to be as bad. But um my concern is they still all have toilets and they're all gonna flush. Exactly.

It's all going to be a problem for the DPW.

And right now we don't have, you know, from from this efficiency study, they have no direction. Um if Cody were here, I'm going to ask again and I'll ask through Gary and when I meet with these guys is to try and figure out whether we can take the efficiency study underneath bag um and have that uh component uh reported back to us. Um because I think you know if if we're looking at the the

major drivers of our budget in the next five to 10 years uh we need to have better eyes on exactly what uh the projects are capital especially on that DPW side but operations over there too.

I agree. I I think that that I think that if this is a good template and once this gets released that that all this template is used for DPW used for any departments that would come up where we have issues not issues but you know questions in in in the future. But again, I think this needs to be a document that we use going forward and not something that really looks at data. That's

and the thing is it's standardizing. If we can standardize some of the outcomes in in each department in these three major and then the operation, if we can get standardize them for us so we can communicate that out to the pre-Town meeting to the citizens and the people at town meeting to explain to them, okay, this is what happened three years ago. We've standardized everything. Here

we are right here. Uh we've got to make some choices in this department. We, you know, um I I think that's ultimately where we've got to go because the choice is going to get harder and harder as as we go along. Uh well, I know that we've we've talked about if we can't make a budget. What does it look like? the school department takes care of that department. But we've

looked at if we have to cut from the DPW, does that mean that they go from a weekly trash pickup to an every other week trash pickup? Does that mean we don't have lifeguards at all on the beaches? Like what does it look like when we have to cut funds on the town side, right? and what that impact is to the town's people.

Or ask the town, this is this is the gap. We need to fund that gap. If you all agree, we're going to need $93.

If you don't get them, this is what's going to happen.

Exactly.

So, yeah, you have to identify a level of service and then ask the folks in the town, do they want to pay for that level of service.

Now, what they just did in Fair Haven.

Yeah. A big a big piece of this too is on this RFP uh if we're looking to build schools, we're looking to build infrastructure. What is the risk if we don't? So there's a risk if we don't build those schools in the next 10 years. There's a risk if we don't there is a competition about it, right? And so that I believe that that should be part of it, you know, and

there's a cost to that risk. I use I use as the example Stang I think with with with everybody here when Westport built they invested Stang saw a a big downturn uh from the people in that area. Um so I agree it it it becomes a question of competition uh to a certain extent. Jim, thank you. So I I think what Gary's talking about is um you know forward

thinking and I I think it's great and I I think some facilities master planning effort um which we've done a lot of in-house work with the long range capital planning committee good work identifying the major projects that you know need to be tackled over the next uh 40 or plus years but having support of those projects through maybe an RFP and and facilities master planning. Um, taking into account

enrollment projections for schools, usage projections for town facilities.

Um, that could be very helpful to us.

Um, so I, you know, I I can see where, you know, we're going to have to sell these projects and we're going to have to sell them.

They're going to have to compete and Yeah. I mean to speak to the risk the risk of not doing anything with these projects besides the fact that maybe you can't flush the toilets or maybe you don't have clean water which pretty obvious ones but the you will do these projects. It's going to happen the you may defer the projects but what does that cost because we all know that escalation of

cost right now is sign is is significantly higher um than um than our rate of borrowing.

Yeah. So, and what what we're going to what I want to make sure is is how does how does the uh the expenditure on capital in in the school department affect not the person that has two kids in the system.

You know, we we have a pretty good idea of of how happy they'll be.

Um it's about the people that are retired that are on fixed income. How does it affect the the value of probably their biggest asset? And we need there's no other place to communicate that to people. We're not communicating that piece of the school issue with the general public. So when they get in that box, they're probably going to go no unless they've got the data that we give them, factual, independent. Make sure

that they understand that this is the information that you need to make an educated decision on the value of your biggest asset.

And that's not just schools. It's no DPW also, right?

Police department.

Yeah. No. Who wants to move into a, you know, a brand new house when when you can't flush the toilets, right? you know, it all goes to value.

Um, for and and I think this uh this uh ballot question number seven really illuminates that with people that are not on sewer and water. Well, what do I care? I'm just going to vote for it.

Well, wait a minute. You have to drive on that road, you know, and the cost of your EMS is going to go up and you need more police officers now. So, guess what? Your tax bill's going up either way.

So, choose wisely, you know. Um, same thing applies to people that don't have kids in the system. Uh, people that are on a septic system that don't, you know, worry about the sewer treatment plant. You know, we're in it together is essentially what I'm saying. So, we've got to communicate it properly to make sure that these decisions are made uh not not for us today, but uh for 5 to 10 years down the road, I think.

Yeah, it needs to be a blueprint for for the next decade.

All right. So, so I'll work on um I I'll work with these guys on on getting back to the the group sooner hopefully uh before the next meeting. Um, but I'm also going to get um I'm I'm going to get something like this put together with everybody uh and get this back to you to give you a better idea of bag and you know what ultimately what the mission is uh the core responsibilities

you know what studies are going to be done under under our purview who we're going to have in uh to discuss some of these issue an actual calendar so we know that in the month of March this is what our goal is for March in order to get uh you know these reviews done um and then an annual product. So, uh, financials and operational reviews for those departments.

James, just from an operational perspective, I just wanted to add, you know, we have a strategic plan that was developed by about 40 community members, a variety of community members. Um, you know, the school department is governed by, um, the school committee, so obviously we report to them. Um, and we'll be reporting on MCCAST results on I believe November 16th. So, be happy to have

anybody there who wants to hear about that. Um, and we're also going to be doing a upcoming uh report to the school committee on our progress towards our strategic plan goals. So, to give an update on that, which we do periodically. So there's you know we we are um trying to communicate the 16th or a different date those things um that will be a different date. I think that may be the second meeting in October.

But it makes sense um uh Chris maybe to before we completely finalize the um this this RFP to maybe even talk to like um the DPW and just to get a sense of like what um what they what they're envisioning for their long-term plans. I know that I know that we're we're focused here on the schools, but if that's going to be a separate component or maybe like another RFP, uh I'm just

thinking maybe not to duplicate efforts uh or or use this as a template and then we bring them in.

I'm not sure how far they are down the road in what data they're looking or what what the outcomes are. Um I don't think it's as um as comprehensive as what we would be looking for as far as in involving capital expenditure also.

Uh it's probably more of just a uh an operational review um with uh with bodies and and and salaries, but um I I I'm gonna I'm going to ask for I I think it should be under our purview um in in order for us to, you know, make a legitimate pitch to um to the select board on on where this budget's going to be in the next five to 10 years. Go

ahead, Brian. No, I I was just going to suggest uh I've heard a lot of talk about the police department study and I've heard talk about the DPW study. I don't know a thing about them other than supposedly they're ongoing. Uh it might be a good idea somewhere along the line.

We got to get them in to have them talk about what that each of their studies is going to do and what they what they're going to do with it after they get the studies completed and then make a decision on whether that's enough in because we'll be further along in planning for the whole town whether that's enough to contribute assuming that those the three departments are the three departments

that represent close to 80% of the budget. Well, I know that um the Dartmouth Police, we got the funding at the this is October, so Springtown meeting for their efficiency study, but we can certainly ask where they are in it. The um DPW efficiency study was completed. However, the um I'm going to say they ran out of money after they did the rate study and they couldn't complete it. And we've been negotiating

trying to get that last piece. Um and so we haven't started it because they we need to put it back out there because we thought they should have did should have included it and they did um the group that did the study only did the rate study. Maybe the thing to do is when you figure when you said you were going to try and put together a mission statement and and uh the purview of this

committee uh in addition to what was put out by the select board is maybe uh when we have that they could come in DPW and uh the police talk about what the these studies are and then talk about like Heidi was just saying we didn't finish the DPW because we didn't have enough money and then also roll into that what their longer term I I think a lot of the state exists what their longer term

plans are for a new sewage system and yeah that's part of long-term capital.

We've we've talked about that in the past.

Yeah. So if we can get all this but this committees haven't been No, but I mean if we can get all this stuff when we get to talk to DBW for instance what they're currently doing the study what they would like to finish the study what they're just confirm that these are the projects they see going forward. Uh did we leave anything out?

Well that was really part of bag. bag was never to focus on just one department. It was to focus on all the town. And so I think going forth because there's going to be at some point ballot questions and what we can't I want to use the word afford, but what we can't have happen is that we can't pit departments against each other trying to get those votes. And you know,

I I want to go back to Fair Haven. You know, they they told the voters exactly what they were going to lose. And one of the biggest things they were going to lose is they have a travel and tourism department in Fair Haven because they have a lot of history stuff that they do. And they told them if this doesn't go forth, the travel and tourism office will close.

The ballot question failed. The travel and tourism closed June 30th and the town was shocked.

That's exactly what they said would happen.

So I think, you know, we don't put anything on the table that we're not willing to actually lose act on. Jine, you had something.

Um, yeah. Not to be repetitive because a lot of it's been said already, but I think it's uh best to have DPW and the police in here sooner rather than later.

So we are on the same page, so they understand what we're talking about and so we can ask them questions as we go along and develop whatever this turns out to be.

So we shouldn't wait, you know, three months and all of a sudden we've got something done and show them. I think they should be part of it now. There's nothing that we uh and maybe we augment what they've done already or that they plan to do and incorporate it in what in what our plans are or or to find out how good we find out how happy they are with the

current funding and what they would like to see going forward and if it makes sense how they can build a case for that going forward.

Yeah. Oh, they're going to have to Well, I know too, Gary. Gary, when you have those department head meetings, you do ask them what other things they need.

You mean the one-on-one the budget process and the finance committee sits on on that.

We don't really separate which is uh fanciful and which they really need doing. We there was some kind of scoring scoring system one.

Well, no. when when we meet when I meet with them for the one-on- ones, uh they present their budget and usually they'll come in they'll commit and say, "Well, okay, you know, if we had an additional staff person or we've requested additional staff people, this is what we need that additional staff person for.

Um, and it's it's police, it's it's all the all the pretty much all the departments. We hear from the schools when we go when we meet with Jim, uh, you know, on what headcounts look like.

Uh, we ask that as part of the budget process. But um yeah, I think the point that we don't wait to to look at other departments or wait for a study to be completed and we get a sense of where they are in that process is a is a pretty good idea. I think maybe we incorporate that with some of the scheduling we have going forward.

The good thing is that, you know, we've got money invested on the police study.

We've got money invested already in the DPW. So, it's not like we're coming back out, you know, with top dollar to get it all redone. Um, so, uh, it make it a little bit easier to justify the cost of a study, which I I can't stand studies, right?

And I know that we we really pushed for the change with the benefit package in order to entice folks to work in Dartmouth or remain in Dartmouth, and we did change that. So, that was a big piece. Um, and I know that when we bring the the police chief in, he's going to tell you that he still has a gap of getting officers. So it's more than just that benefit package.

I look I look at the bag as as one thing that I used to do to I used to bring in a consultant to just hammerous about management everybody from president down to um right down the line. Uh and it's when you're working in the business or you're working on the business. And in my mind this is basically us working on the business. you know, the department heads daytoday paying the bills, dealing

with HR, that's all working in the business. And sometimes you lose the forest through the trees when you when you're that close to everything. So, I'd like to see the the bad group serve as all the departments working on the business uh at least um through the the time that they've got us.

Yeah. And then this group promote you know if if in fact uh you know we we like I mentioned to go to go to borrow for a school or whatever this is a key component and and let's face it make a master plan ultimately disappears after a while but this is something I think that remains fresh yeah and is in people's minds if we can standardize the if we can standardize the outcomes in these

departments then it becomes easier to do it the second year third year and we have an kind of a running idea of exactly how things look so if it hits the fan we know okay listen we already know in this department we've got a little bit of room here. We're wiping that out. Uh or we need to invest over there to get this outcome higher. That's where we're going to spend the money.

Um so I also think we need to we need to investigate if Sarped if I mean I know they just finished something with us but it did not include the projections that I think we need.

Ser with the DPW?

No with um the master plan for housing.

We didn't have any of the production plan with they didn't do we didn't have any of the 40B projects online.

So when they were estimating our residents there was not I thought that they added some I thought I thought they added them I think they just added maybe it was the housing for serpent I think the housing production plan.

Yeah but that doesn't tell us.

No. And then we had moment we had a big change on one of them where it's not 158, it's 66.

Right.

Right.

Right.

So Chris, the next meeting are we looking to come up with some sort of final I want to say final draft of a Yeah, I I think we have to work together.

We'll we'll work with with you, Cody, uh Brian, Heidi, if available. We'll get we'll get um we'll get together.

Uh I I think we're all in agreement on the on the comments that came in. have to meet me, but Jim or Chris.

I I think we'll be able to get uh something back to us that makes that makes sense. I don't think Bess is going to be happy with any of it, but we're going to Well, our next meeting for bag is October tomorrow is Oh we You said we skipped October 27th.

October.

We have October 27th. We skipped the 13th because we thought that was going to be the pre town meeting, but it's not. It's true.

Can we steal that one? Oh, actually 13th. I'm going to be in Florida.

So, you cannot steal that one.

So, that's okay. That's okay. The 20 October 27th.

That'll be our next meeting.

Yeah, that's our next meeting. Okay.

Pre-Town meeting is October 7th.

In the evening I presume.

Excuse me.

In the evening I presume.

Yes. In this meeting.

So in the initial calendar that I had the month of September is review performance uh select uh next efficiency study update metrics begin next year's work program. So nothing crucial if we end up using this type of calendar. Uh and then October is update the uh the 10-year financial outlook. So, uh, it gets a little it starts to get into budgets after, uh, I'm sorry, what is that?

After November. This is the the thing that I'm I'm going to work on to get out to everybody about a a calendar. Kind of structure this thing a little bit more instead of calendar we haven't seen is what you're saying.

Well, you haven't seen it yet. Um, unless you have one. Do you have one?

No. All right. Well, I won't be here the 27th, but um Oh.

Oh, wow.

We'll still work on a product to get to Well, we're going to be working together.

Yeah.

You'll have um input prior to it.

Yep.

No minutes.

No minutes. She's working on them.

I'll accept a motion.

I'll make a motion to adjourn this meeting.

Second.

Some or Yes. Second.

Second. All in favor? All right. All in favor?