Community Preservation Committee Meeting March 10, 2026

Great. Okay, our meeting will come to order. I just want to remind folks that um our meeting is recorded by DCTV. The microphones are on. So, mind your site conversations.

Um and we will get started just um as we for our our main order of business uh today is to have uh public hearing which will be part of our uh meeting. um to hear presentations on the proposals before us. Uh and then we will we will vote to go into the hearing and then uh when we've heard all the presentations and have um asked all the questions and heard from everybody, we'll close the

public hearing and continue in our open meeting. Um taking up um looking at our budget and then taking up recommendations for the June town meeting warrant. Hi Susan.

So, um, to begin, we've all received the minutes. Um, so can I have a motion to accept the minutes?

I'll make a motion to accept.

That's Mike. Yeah. And a second.

That was Jim. Um, any uh additions, corrections?

I have uh I have one um correction on page three in the um we list out the questions we had for the dya a field lighting project. Um we also had the same the questions for the um the town administrator that we had for um the um cultural center. So those those questions about 30B.

Um so if you just would put them in there as well. So when I reached out to Cody, I reached out to him for both those projects.

Okay. So with that one correction, um we approve the minutes. All in favor?

Opposed? Nope. I abstain because I wasn't here.

There's one who has a stain on them.

That's uh Christina.

Okay, great. Um correspondence invoices.

We have an invoice.

Okay. So, this is the advertising for the public hearing. So, it's an invoice for $340 total right?

Yep.

Okay. Very good.

So, as our tradition, take a look at it and then Susan's in the hot seat.

That's what happens when you get here late.

Mike got here particularly early and sat in this corner.

Blocked her so she couldn't go sit there. Tried her seat back. Pulled this one out.

All

right. I make a motion to pay um Dartmouth week $170 for the CPC needs assessment.

So, I think it's a total of 340 there.

Oh, sorry. Yes, you're right.

Yep.

340 amended.

All right. Uh second And uh any questions or discussion? All right. All in favor?

Uh proceed second.

Great. Thank you.

And we'll sign that on the way back and then we'll entertain a vote. We um open the public hearing.

We saved banana bread for you.

Maybe your dinner was already voted on to sign this. It's invoice.

Thanks.

Thank you.

I'll make a motion to go into a public hearing regarding the uh five proposal received for the uh June town meeting.

Is there a second?

Second.

All right, Susan. And all in favor?

I Any opposed?

Very good. That would be a problem.

Okay.

So, uh just some of the how our public hearing will work. Um we will ask uh sponsors to come up to the podium over here so DCTV can pick up everything um and give us a short presentation.

Um we had reviewed the proposals and for each of the sponsors had um submitted a set of questions and sometimes more information. So I think in the in the presentations if you could try to address the those questions. Um we've received written responses from I think just about everybody. Um and then I will recognize anyone um present um who may want to speak in favor or maybe have a different view of the

project or have questions and then we will go to committee members um for any questions and then we'll move on to the next um proposal after that. Um and just um for the record uh we've had one application withdrawn that was the Pas Pascam Manset Valley Conservation. Um the parties weren't all kind of ready to pro move forward with with the proposal. So they um contacted us to withdraw.

Okay. Um so DCTV U Peter

Hi. Uh, Peter Chase, director of media for DCTV, Town of Dartmouth. Um, we're here today to move on to phase two of our building project. Um, you funded a study with phase one. Um, I have Nathan uh Ginsburg from Bruce Thornton who uh their group did the study and uh he's here to ask answer any technical questions. But um so we completed the study. Um they looked at the outside of the building and made some

recommendations. Uh the recommendations are to replace the um outside of all the shingles and the woodwork. Um so you can see some of the rot that's around the building. Um I think you all received this um report. Um and so there's there's a lot of weather. You know, the shingles haven't been done in in many years. Um so we're looking to replace all the all the shingles with the red uh

cedar shingles is I think is the proposed um preferred um choice. Uh we're looking to change out all the trim and also do a skirt board along the bottom that's all uh PVC um which is historically correct in the in the coloring and the in the formation. Um and oh by the way I should mention that we did go in front of the historical commission back in December with this

entire plan. they were 100% on board um with all the recommendations and um that we told them that when we had the final drawings, we'd go back to them for kind of like their final approval before we went out to bid. So um we'll follow up with them within the next couple months when we're ready to bid out the project.

Um, so the only additions that we're going to be doing to the building are, let me just skip ahead a little bit, is um, on the side of the buildings right now.

There's an entrance on either side.

There's no dormers over the doors. Um, so we're going to put historically accurate dormers over it. Basically, just to um, shed the water away from the doors and the in the platforms. Um, so this way there's ice build up a lot on those on the concrete area. So, um, that's going to be a little bit of an addition. And then on the side that we'll call it the south side, which is

next to the police station, there's a set of stairs. Right now, it has no railings. Um, so we're going to put some railings there just to have that accessible in case we need to use it and and have the safety of railings there.

Um, the front stoop, uh, I think what we're going to change is you can see the front drawing there. We're going to remove the middle banister. So, um, it'll just be the two side banisters.

And then uh we're going to replace all the banisters along the handicap accessible ramp. And we're going to uh fix and and repaint the dorm route front. Um and then the only other part of the project I think is a little bit of grading on the north side. Right now the the um the grass is right up on top of the of the building. Um so we're going to we can't take it down too much,

but we're going to kind of grade it away from the building. So hopefully any kind of water runoff comes and it'll run towards the parking lot, not towards the building. Um, reviewing some of your questions, I think, um, you know, there's a little miscommunicate a mis I don't know misunderstanding that DCTV is a town department in every sense of the uh, way every you know your council on

aging is, your library is. So as far as you know, there's no kind of lease on it. You know, we're not a separate nonprofit. We're not a separate entity.

where, you know, we are an enterprise fund. So, that really is just how we capture the money that comes in from Comcast. Um, you know, Comcast does have a 10-year license with the with the town, which was signed two years ago.

Uh, we maxed out by federal law, we're only allowed to get 5% funding from cable revenues in the town, and we actually maxed that out. So, we cannot go to Comcast and ask them for extra money there. It's just not feasible.

like the the the contract is in stone for the next 10 years. Uh so we're still, you know, I think we just signed year two of that contract and unfortunately I'm sure everyone in this building has been dropping table. You know, our revenue has been going down.

So it's it's uh you know, it's it's not a it's not the money that it used to be.

So um we're we're struggling with budgetary problems and and there's going to be some changes coming forward for us in the future, too. Um, so we're, you know, we put in 10%. That's what we thought was a good number to put in. You know, we we really can't afford anything else. Um, and so with that, I will open it up to questions.

Thank you. Um, for folks who are present, any um questions or comments that you would like to make regarding this proposal? If so, please come up to the microphone, but don't let that discourage you.

Okay. From the committee,

yes, Jim.

Um, in your response, you said that if if CPC money were not available for this. Um it not to talk about other sources but uh the requirement that restoration be done in accordance with historic standards is no longer in effect. Um and do you have an estimate as to what would be the cost of the project in in that eventuality?

I I don't uh but I will tell you that I don't think the project in its entirety would happen. I think it would be patchwork basically. You know, we we do what we had to do to patch up the building. We would not, you know, we wouldn't be able to afford to do the whole building. Um so it's, you know, so we haven't looked at that.

You know, we don't want to look at that.

It's a beautiful building. Um, you know, this historical commission was thrilled that we were trying to preserve it as a historical building. I mean, you got the old police station right next door to us that they want to preserve as a historical building, too. So, it it's, you know, we don't want to go down any other road, so we don't want to look into it. Um, you know, and we don't want

to be forced to look into that.

Were there any scope items that you wish you'd put in here but are not in here?

I don't think so because I think this is this will finish up the building. So when we moved in about I think it was 14 12 14 years ago. We we redid the roof.

We redid all the HVAC. We we put new windows in. Uh we did the doors. Um so we just didn't have the funds at the time to do the exterior. And you know all those funds were 100% cable revenue.

Um it wasn't you know and and that's why we came to CPC for the historical part of it on the outside to preserve the historical nature of the building on the outside.

Yeah. John just commentary. I've gone on record with you Peter and others that I'm in favor of the uh the project. Um and when we view it, one of the hard questions I had and critical of u the building maintenance um how did we get here? You know, it was I couldn't believe the uh the pitches.

And so, one of the questions we asked is what's your maintenance budget? Um, and I'm surprised that your your maintenance buds is uh $8,000 annually. And I've got to assume, you go into the details that probably most of that is going towards janitorial maintenance of the building and not repairs uh to the building over the time. So, I hope you look at increasing that annual uh maintenance

budget to address some of these other critical issues that may arise.

Certainly not capital improvements, a new boiler or a new roof. But when I see pictures of missing shingles down at the bottom at the sill that have obviously been like that for years and have now have rotted out the sill and at a greater expense to repair that because it was neglected for years. That could have been remedied. And I know you haven't been there. It's not you um all those years. that could have been

remedied very easily with a $1,000 repair or $1,500 repair to put some shingles on that to get you by until a major renovation. You know, I hope we don't end up here again. And you look at make sure you're properly funded for again, not major capital, but small stuff that may arise outside cleaning the floors and the windows and so forth. So, so I will be um you know totally honest with you. Some of that

work was done from the study that was done 14 years ago. Um they had to remove some shingles and to look at the sill and investigate it and um there was a plan to go forward with a repair 10 years ago, but it got pulled last minute by, you know, previous administration.

So, um, ever since I've taken over, this has been a, you know, one of my big priorities was to finish up the outside of this building. Um, and you know, unfortunately, there was a little bit of a lag because there was discussion of a new building going up behind it behind us. And, you know, there was some discussion on whether or not there'd be room for us within that new building to

um, you know, to do that. And you know, that project kind of seems like it's completely off the table now. So, we want to move forward and just, you know, get our get our home nice and watertight and and standing strong while we can.

And and I can tell you going forward, we're you're going down the right path and I appreciate it. And um let's not repeat history. Um, and like I said, I think you need to look at start increasing that budget so you can be prepared for some of these minor stuff that might come up uh that should be addressed and not go on for years and years. And what a shame a previous administration

whoever that was uh neglected because it it longer you put it off, the more expensive the repairs get.

Exactly. That that that first uh proposal I think was about 150,000 to do the outside of the building.

And so now we're 511. So that shows you in the but even some you know in my opinion you know having a bit of bit of construction knowledge you know some real cheap repairs could have gone a long way to prevent some of the some of the things that happened over the years but I again I'm in favor of the project. I think it's a worthwhile uh building to uh save.

Great. um can you just say a little bit more about so you have $50,000 that on the enterprise fund can put forward towards this project and and you want to do that upfront. Can you just say a little bit about So our plan was to um you know uh Bruce Thornton's finishing up the bid documents that was part of the original contract um to go through the bidding process with them. We'd have to sign a

new agreement with Bruce Thornton. So, we we put in for $50,000 through our reserve fund, uh, retained earnings fund, sorry, DCTV retained earnings. Um, so that's going to be on the June town meeting warrant. I assume I just met with CIP this morning. Um, they haven't made their official recommendations, but everything seemed like that they were ready to approve that. Um, so going for

June town meeting, you'll see that on this under the CIP that there'll be a $50,000 request. Our hope is on July 1st to sign a agreement with Bruce the Thor and to continue having them on as the the um party to bring us through it, you know, the whole construction process. Um and at that point, we would send it out to bid because we'd have we'd have access to the $50,000 on July 1st.

That first part of the fund would be the your whatever your architecture engineer permitting kind of.

Exactly. And so, so we're we're fully um invested in spending our $50,000 first upfront completely. So even when we sign a contract and we stop paying the vendor, if this all gets approved and passed, um we'll um you know, we'll extend that 50,000 out completely and then whatever obviously whatever we don't use at the end, we are carrying a very healthy contingency. We think um you know I think Bruce Lethman wants to

put in 10%. We asked to put in another 10% on top of it. We also put in for full replacement of the sheathing behind the shingles because we know that there's going to be a lot of rot behind there and we didn't want to get into a situation where we took off the shingles and then only budgeted for 20 to 30% of the sheathing replacement. Um so that's in the in all the estimates now. So

hopefully we'll be able to turn some money back. Um, and so any kind of savings that we have would 100% go back to the CPC once we close out the project.

Okay. Thank you. Any other questions?

Great. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Are there folks here who can speak to the Deval field?

There we go. Great.

There's there's a couple seats up here too.

Good evening everyone. I just want to introduce myself, but I do have some packets that I want to give out as part of my presentation. But um my name is Natasha Suabi. I'm a land conservation specialist with the Buzzards Bay Coalition. Um and I'm here represented with Brendan Annette. He's the vice president of our wershed protection. Um, I just want to give these to you before I begin.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So the coalition has submitted this application um in partnership with the Dartmouth Conservation Commission um where BBC will require um and permanently protect two and a half acres to establish a public park and protect critical natural resources off Tanner Lane which is along the um Silken Rivers estuary. So um this park serves um as as unique location um at the head of tide for the Silks River estuary um to be

available to the public as a waterfront park. It improves the water quality in the Sum River estuary and the Buzzards Bay by limiting septic system and runoff pollution at this specific location and it contributes to the growing greenway corridor along the river. Um it protects fish and wildlife along the river and the river is notable for um a variety of particular species for turnbirds and and

migratory fish. Um it also serves as a migration of marsh and coastal habitat long term. It maintains the scenic uh character of the Russell Mill village and it also works to foster public engagement through outdoor art that connects the community to the location's ecological and cultural significance.

So, the Buzzers Bay Coalition um currently has a purchase and sales agreement to acquire this accessible and very ecologically important property for open space conservation. Um we're currently pursuing private fundraising and other sources to cover a portion of the cause. Um and BBC and the Dartmouth Con are co-licants and we respectfully request 575,000 in community preservation funds to be used by the

Conservation Commission to acquire a permanent conservation restriction on the property. So, as you can see, there's a breakdown um where BBC is acquiring the property for $725,000 and we also have an additional $55,000 in due diligence costs. Um the appraised value for the CR is $630,000.

Um and we're asking for 575.

Um, so as seen on on the packet, BBC is actively working towards funding a portion of this project and CBC remains a critical component at this time to help fund the project. Um, it's a great opportunity for the town to support a unique and accessible waterfront opportunity to the public. It's in the historical district and it serves as a community connector with Deval's general

store just barely 100 feet away. Um it's in the Russell Mills Historic uh district commission. So it's going to require review um before we could remove the house, which is what we're proposing. Um we've already initiated the process for this review and it's moving forward with submitting an application. Um we don't expect there to be any issue upon this review as the house was built in the 1970s and doesn't

meet the criteria for historic historical value. Um, and we're expecting to keep the existing small shed that's on site. And there's a garage there as well to store um, stewardship stewardship equipment like mowers.

Um, as shown on the map, the access to the property will remain the same.

There's currently a driveway there, but we plan to expand um, by adding six parking spots which will be available to the public. And in addition to that, we plan to add picnic tables, create a short trail through the um we're envisioning a grassy open space with a short trail with waterfront views and access. Um and eventually the Massachusetts Design Art and Technology Group, DAPMA, um will bring an outdoor

art that fosters community connection and um a deep understanding of the ecological and cultural significance of the location. um attached in the last image of your packet um there was a previous conservation group that did an uh artwork similar and that's kind of the brainstorm behind what DMA was um currently configuring.

Um as I mentioned uh the property uh will be maintained where BBC will have site equipment stored in the shed and garage and like our other fee owned land across the Buzzards Bay wershed. Um, we'll have routine land management where we'll mow the grassy area around once a year and maintain the short trail and other pathway systems routinely with consistent access. Um, and this is done

with our professional land management staff and they continuously manage all our landscapes full-time. And with that, I'll open up for any questions.

Great. Thank you. Um, first from folks in attendance, anyone have questions or like to speak to this project at all?

Uh yes, if you could come up to the mic and introduce yourself.

Um my name is um Sue Gaduchi. I am with the um Dartmouth Historical Commission.

Um I realize that this doesn't meet the standard for historic preservation, but just to give you a little bit of background, this house was constructed constructed by Raymond Dval in the 70s.

And anyone that remembers Raymond, he was a master carpenter and a contractor.

And this house is not being demolished because it's in disrepair. It's just being demolished. Now, I'm a little surprised. I mean, as much as I am in favor of the protection of this type of a property, why this this structure cannot be repurposed in some way because that type of um this type of demolition, it's just not sustainable. So whether or not the coalition decides to utilize it

for interns or convert it into a gallery, you spoke about artwork, which would be much better than taking a perfectly decent building and putting it in a dumpster.

Would you like to respond or someone would like to respond from the sponsor?

Well, you have to come up to that microphone and introduce yourself.

Thank you, Sue. That's a that's a certainly uh uh an appropriate comment.

The the our first intention would be to try to relocate the building. So, that would be the first effort. So, the the which like you said, repurpose um that depends on the logistics of being able to do that. The one of the problems with the location of the building now is actually included in some maps that we provided with our application is the storm sur threat and the eventual sea

level rise threat at the location. So the long-term sustainability of this particular location for sustaining a residence is is uh isn't practical because of the threat to the rising rising waters. So that's that's part of uh the benefit of actually having this site uh preserving the historic scenic nature of the site, but understanding that hey, if this uh sold again on the private market, it would likely be a

larger house, which would then get defended in a way that sort of um uh has impacts to the river and sort of and the um adaptation of the river bank and the coastal habitats along the river and and potentially would be a threat to the structure. So, it's our intention is to actually at least look into is is it possible that we could actually find a home for this building by moving it?

That would be the the first intention.

Um but uh uh we've decided that the removing the septic system has benefits at this location and the long-term sustainability of a house at this location is is challenging.

Um just for our record and you are My name is Brendan Annette as Natasha introduced at the beginning. I am the vice president of watershed protection uh at water at Buzzard Bay Coalition.

Thank you.

Great. Thank you.

Other questions?

Yes, Margaret.

Uh I have A couple of questions. Um, first of all, I'm looking at a deed from 31325 that was for Massachusetts Design, Art, and Technology. Okay. And I'm looking at a P purchase and sales agreement for the 24 uh 20024 in December with Bernie Gett. So, who actually owns this property?

Uh, Datma owns the property. So BBC entered a PNS with the previous owner when it was on the open market um and entered an agreement with DATMA to pre-acquire the property to give us the opportunity to try for this opportunity if and so we have anou with them to basically buy it for the same amount that they purchased it for. So we preserve that opportunity to try to fund for this conservation outcome. If that

didn't happen, they would have to sell it on the open. the purchase and sales that we all have for 2024.

Um Bernie Gett is not the personal representative.

He does not he's not the current owner.

The current owner is Dat.

So this purchase and sales agreement is kind of null and well right but we attached uh I believe we attached theou that basically extends this opportunity until next September. the the purpose was simply as a pre-acquisition as a placeholder in the middle to give the time to for the ability to raise funds to try to do this while competing on a market when other buyers are just looking to buy immediately.

Yeah.

Okay. And I have another question. Sure, please. Um I ended up calling um Michael Wahhausowski who is the uh chairperson of the Russell Mills um commission, historic commission, and I said to him, have they gone before you? And he said, "No, I uh did speak to someone and they I did give them papers, but they'd never returned the papers."

So, I think that the Russell Mills comm uh historic commission would have the final say on whether you can knock down that house or not.

Oh, they do. And as Natasha acknowledged, we need to go through their review. They do. And so, that's true. So, that's being submitted this week. what what has to happen before it actually gets submitted is for the abutter notice notifications to go out and that has to be coordinated with another office in town hall. So that's actually what's happening now.

So um and I'm ignorant of fact I'm going to ask uh chairperson so if we were to approve this and they didn't get it.

Okay. I mean, how how do we approve something when you That was one of our questions actually is if you weren't not able to um uh remove the property of the building from the property, what does that what's the impact? What will you do?

That that would be determined before we acquire the property in September. And if we couldn't take the building down, I don't think we wouldn't move forward.

Okay. Well, that's that's that's an important piece of information. Okay.

Very important.

Yeah. Yeah.

Did we I'm sorry. There was a lot of emails. Um did we actually get answers to the questions that you posed?

Uh not in writing. Uh other than what was just handed out uh at our meeting and then what has been uh verbally kind of address our questions? No.

So if if you couldn't remove the structure for historical purposes you're saying or for well let's say it sounds like that might be the one thing that might you might not get approval to tear down I guess or I I think as Natasha said we believe it's unlikely. I'm not saying that there's not value to the structure but um but it's not it's not consistent with why Russell Mills is designated as a

historic district. That's That's what she was saying.

Got it. Got it.

And that's probabilities. Yes. Um but but just in terms of if it were if the building couldn't be removed from the property, then you don't think you would go forward with the project at all.

It would require another another alternative such as a proposed use of the building and that's not currently inherent to us, right? That would be partnering with another organization uh such as the examples that uh Susan suggested. Okay, great. I just want to So I I don't think it's impossible, but it's not in the context of how we're currently proposing it because that involves another option and the and the

risk to the residential structure is actually part of the context of the basically the threat from the right from the uh being adjacent to the co the coastal location where hurricane could take it down.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Um, and you've already started the process for getting in front of the historical commission.

So, it has not been submitted as has been said. So, we've started the process with the butter notifications and we have the papers and they're completed and ready to be considered that part of a process. So, that's exactly what Natasha said that we've started the process. I'm just I'm just clarifying based on the comment that was made.

Yeah.

Thank you. I appreciate it and I'm Okay.

Well, try to do my homework.

It's totally fair. So, I would have done it too.

I know you would.

So, very likely that question will be answered before town meeting.

Absolutely.

Okay. Yeah. Good.

Yeah.

Other questions?

Yeah. John, um the um you talked about um parklike setting and maybe some trails um across the street. The town owns the pond, the dam, and the waterfall. And that's an attractive site for residents and they park over there and use that facility.

Is there any is there going to be attempt to create a trail so people can safely go from one piece to the other?

Well, the road is in the way. So safely dependent on coordinating with the town.

I've done it and there you know there are I think there are some ways that we can facilitate improving that. Yeah. By is that part of the plan?

That's part of the plan.

people.

That's part of the plan is that the making it a publicly accessible space is that we're developing it in a way that's accessible from as best as possible from because it's not accessible from the landing, but it is accessible from the site across the street.

Yeah. Yeah. When we have been taking supporters to the site, that's where we go. We show them the pond, the fish ladder, take them across. That's I I agree with you. That's how we'd like to see it. And when I say trails, the idea is that we would maintain as like a natural high grassland at the site. So trails mean that the grassland gets mowed once annually to keep the woodies

down, right? But that the trail is that we actually have a mode wide walking path so people can walk tick free through the property down to the water and see. So you can look over the tall grass but actually walk through the site and enjoy it. Yeah. And then the area around the parking area, uh, sort of at the north end of the site, um, there would actually be some regularly mowed

lawn, right, where we could have benches and picnic areas that's more open and you're not walking through tall grass.

And it looks like from the aerial, I've never traversed the property, but it looks like from the aerial there's um, a stone wall along the river. Is that along the entire river frontage or I guess a portion of it?

So, is fishing going to be allowed? Yes.

From the bank of that uh, as permitted by state law, right? Remember those river herrings still can't be collected since 2006 or whatever.

It's not going to be discouraged.

Not at all. You actually the idea is for this to to have the water connection, right? It's real obviously at low tide there's the sound of water in the riffle. At high tide it sort of floods in if not sort of it floods in. Um but it's unique character of the village and it's something to show off and for people in the community to experience.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Other questions?

Yeah, I don't have the proposal in front of me, so I'm going from memory here, but um but Margaret made me think of it.

So, who will be the I know you're going to own the restriction, but who owns the land? Who will own?

No, we Buzzers Bay Coalition will own the land.

We'll own the land.

The town will own the restriction.

Backwards, right? All right. So, you'll own the land.

So, then you'll and we'll maintain the land.

Maintain the land and obviously have insurance.

Yep. Yep.

Will the town be additional shirt on that policy.

Doesn't need to be because it's not an owner. The you don't actually own you don't have liability for the property.

You basically have the the the right to prevent the the development which or changes to the land use that would impact the character of the property.

Right. So, it's there's not there's not a uh liability connection to the town, but like the town and DNRT BBC when it opens these uh properties to the public, there actually are statutory protections by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts for opening properties like this. So, okay.

Yeah. In addition to that, both of our organizations also carry insurance.

Okay. Other questions?

Great. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

The folks here could speak to the crepo field lighting.

If you just introduce yourself so that you can be permanently recorded.

That can do that.

All right. Uh, my name is Adam Matis. I am a lifelong resident of town and the current president of the DYAA. Um, I want to thank Mr. Chairperson and the other members of the board for having us here tonight to present what we believe is a very important project for the town. Um, the DYA has been serving Dartmouth families for over 50 years.

currently provides recreational opportunities to the town's youth. Uh annually we service between five and 600 uh youth baseball players every single year between our spring and fall seasons. Uh and then another 400 plus in basketball uh which is where I just came from. Sorry for being a little late. Um Crapo Field is a very important uh recreational facility in our town. um maybe none more important. Uh it's been

m maintained and operated by the DYAA uh for greater than 50 years. Um we have a longstanding uh lease partnership with the town uh and have serviced and maintained that property for generations of our families and and children to use.

Uh our current challenge which is why we're here today uh the lighting infrastructure at Crapo Field existed before I played there uh which was a long time ago. Some fields is 30 35 years, others are over around 50, believe it or not. Um it's aging. It's starting to fail. Um finding replacement parts and people to fix them is a real challenge for us.

um you know, they're failing more frequently. Finding someone with a bucket truck large enough to get out there and service them in the tight spaces that we have in some of the areas at the at the complex is a real challenge. Um we've been fortunate enough to leverage some relationships with Eversource in the last couple years where they've come out and helped us with bucket trucks, but that's just not

sustainable. Um you there's only so many times you can ask for a favor. Um, so what we've proposed is uh full replacement. There's currently five lit fields there. So the seven fields on the property, five of them are lit. The two that are unlit are um when you first drive on the property on the left hand side, they service our littlest kids t-ball. They don't need to be lit. Those

kids aren't playing night games. They're too young. Uh but this would allow us to replace every fixture on the property.

There's 112 of them. uh and bring it back to life and make it so that we don't have disruptions to the services that we provide to the kids. Um the projects, you know, the the DYAA, I think I sent answers to all the questions. I don't know if you have them. Do you have them?

Yes.

Okay. Um, you know, it's I'm looking at it, we're looking at it as a partnership between us at the DYA, the town as the uh the land owner. Um, C2S is our general contractor. They're actually here tonight with us. Um, Kyle Cabraw, who's actually also a board member of the DYA and Marco Costa, who's their engineer, has worked on the project for us. Um Mark Cabraw Electric is the would would be the chosen electrical

contractor to work under C2S and in addition to that um we've developed a relationship over the last eight or nine months with great and better vulc um they just completed some work for us at the facility recently. Um we upgraded all of the lighting in our concession stand and meeting hall to LED fixtures.

We replaced all the heating systems, added blown-in insulation. Uh, and these guys made that possible for us at zero cost. Um, they were able to get rebates on the materials. Whatever materials we couldn't get rebates on, they actually donated. And then the students at Voke Tech under the supervision of their administrators and teachers came out and did the work on site. Um they are very interested in continuing that

relationship and have offered their assistance if we are able to secure the funds to come out and work side by side with our electrical contractor under their supervision which will help us save you know that's probably going to help us save about $30,000 just in labor. Um, if we're fortunate enough to have the project funded, our aim is to start the work in September, which is just after

our summer, spring and summer season, uh, and wrap up sometime in October, which would still allow us to have probably an abbreviated fall baseball season, but it would be the least amount of disruption possible uh, for the organization and for the leagues that we that we oper. operate. Um the funding is it's this funding is very important. Likely without it the project does not move forward. Just being frank.

Um we operate basically hand-to-mouth. You know we can only get so much out of the families in town. Um it's already expensive enough for their children to participate in recreational sports and activities.

uh we budget to maintain the facility and maintain the the existing infrastructure that we have there but at the moment you know I mean I have if you guys want to look I did put together that was the one item I didn't send you was a little a draft baseball budget just so you can see how how we operate Thank you.

Thanks.

So, as you can see, I mean, our our spring summer baseball season and the associated cost, we project an operating surplus about $2,300 um to take on a project of this magnitude where we're requesting $230,000 to be able to complete it.

As an organization, we I wish we could fund it ourselves. I truly do. Um but we can't.

Um I I know there was a question about had we looked elsewhere before we came here. Yes, we had. Um the first thing we did was we tried to go to the utility and take advantage of the rebate programs. We were really hopeful that that was going to be approved even if it was approved partially. Uh they came back and told us we just didn't have enough run time. basically, you know,

leave the lights on for a year and then come back and maybe they'll do it, but that just seems pretty wasteful in my opinion. Um, so in closing, I mean, Crapo Field is an extremely important part of Darmmouth's recreational community. Um, we have hundreds of children and families that come through.

Uh, we host uh with Mr. Vieira has been, you know, he's the face of the organization for probably 50 years. He was there before me. He may even be there after me cuz once my kids out of there, I'm out of there. But, um, it it, you know, we run a tournament every August and bring people in from out of town. And I just started experiencing the tournament travel last

year with my own son. And you go to some of these facilities and you look and you scratch your head and they're rough.

Everybody comes to Crapo Field and I'm this is no word of a lie. We probably have half the field every single year approach us and tell us how proud we should be of that facility, the way it's run, the way it's maintained. Um, and I think that's great for us as a town to be able to kind of we're a bright shining star in that aspect of things.

um we just need to put a little polish on it. Um just just the way it is, you know, we're not going to increase any field usage. Um but they will be right now. I mean, in the fall, we had games canled because we had lights that weren't operable until we were able to get emergency management, thankfully, through uh some connections there to bring us a portable light stion and get those kids lighting

on the field so that they could finish the season. Um, but those are the types of things that we're running up against.

Um, so I respectfully ask for your support and I'm sincerely thankful for the opportunity to ask for your support and I'll open it up to all of you for any questions that you may have.

Very good. Thank you. Um, for folks who are present um, anyone who like have questions or like to speak um, with regards to this proposal?

This is one difference between us and the zoning board of appeals.

Just noting, but it's great. I'm really glad you all are here. Um, so for the committee questions, I guess I'll just clarify something you said. Um, so on the rates, you're saying that reason why they don't qualify the rebates is because the lights don't you don't you don't have the lights on enough during the year to make it worth the utilities investment back into the equipment.

Is that correct? It is.

Yeah. If you guys want to come up here and introduce yourself.

Thanks everyone. My name is Marco Costa.

I'm an engineer with C2S Energy. Uh, I've helped out Adam at a few of his locations.

specifically at DYAA.

So, I've worked with Eversource and local utilities for the better part of about 12 years on the energy efficiency side. And what the utilities tend to do is they do a benefit cost ratio where they determine whether or not the money they are funding a project with is justifiable by the energy savings of that project. So the first question I had to Eversource when we were looking at this project was are there runtime

excuse me limitations because this field isn't necessarily used with a high intensity preliminary estimates went through I sent to Eversource and it was determined at that time that the runtime hours are not significant enough now that and I don't want to speak I'm I'm going to speak cand ly what happens is is Eversource gets a lot of willy-nilly projects all the time and an engineer

doesn't want to spend his time and resources on something that might not come to fruition.

Um, I do think that if I press Eversource enough and say, "Hey, look, the town is coming to the table with a with a viable project and and they're potentially showing a means to fund this project." I really think you guys should step up to the plate. I I do think that there is a good chance that that happens. However, my preliminary question to them was was met with um it

doesn't meet the runtime hours, so we're not going to look at it. That was basically uh how it was handled. I explained that to Adam and everyone. I said, "Hey, look, I've been fighting with Eversource here, and they're kind of just shoeing me away. Maybe um if something is a little bit more set in stone um I can go back to the table and and vouch for the town to try to get

some some funding secured for this project. I don't think they don't typically want to dismiss especially municipalities. They they want to help municipalities. Um but they just want to make sure that they're they're not wasting time and effort on something that's never going to happen.

Okay. No, I appreciate that. Sure.

Absolutely.

Other questions?

Yes, Jim.

Um, I mean, there are 112 fixtures.

Yes.

Um, count them. Um, I I am I've never been very close to u athletic field lighting situations, but I've witnessed these from afar. And um and what I recollect was that the the high level approach to the lighting of a field 50 years ago is very different than it is today and because of the changes in technology of of lighting.

Has this project been looked at by somebody who is whose specialty is athletic field lighting? It has.

Huh?

It has.

And and and we had a shading study completed.

I'm sorry.

We had a shading study completed with the existing poles that are on location and it was determined that for us to be able to get adequate field coverage and light coverage on the fields, we needed to replace fixture for fixture.

Yeah.

And the question is would would a lesser number of fixtures in in in different locations uh do the job? I mean is in other words is is the design appropriate uh for today's athletic field lighting technology?

That's probably a question for you.

I know.

Yeah.

Not the electrical engineering a question of will it will it work, but is it the right way to light a field?

Yeah. Correct. So, obviously my goal is to save energy and I do that through either reduction in wattage or reduction in quantity of fixtures. Those are the two easiest ways that you reduce the electrical consumption with sports lighting, sports field lighting. So, that was the first question I went to to uh when I was sourcing a a a replacement LED fixture to the lighting reps who are very well verssed with

lighting fixture. I said, "Look, here's the quantity of fixtures I have. I need to know one, can I reduce the the the fixture count? Two, I want to know what the minimum wattage is because I want to try to save as much money." This was before Eversource shut me down, of course. So, I need to show the biggest delta in existing fixture wattage versus proposed fixture wattage. It came back

because he came back with a 600 watt LED uh equivalent versus a,000 watt metal halli which is on site right now. I said "Hey can we go lower than 600 watts? Maybe a 400 watt. Can we do it in 400 watts?"

His response to me was the performance.

We will not meet the foot candles at the playing surface. If we go another 200 watt watts lower, we're going to see a degragation in actual light. But what we do benefit is over a 40% reduction in electrical consumption.

So as I was looking at the design, the goal primary primary goal is you don't change the lighting quality on the field because the last thing I want and say, "What the hell did you do here?" Excuse my friends. Um, so that would that that's the way the the the replacement was scoped. How do I reduce the fixtures if possible and how do I reduce the wattage as much as possible?

Thank you.

Sure.

You mentioned that um your lease expired about a year and a half ago, correct? October 2024.

Yes. And any but you've been in place for 50 any any issues or anything being negotiated?

No issues at all. Explain this gap or No, no issues at all. Um we're just simply awaiting an RFP from the town to be able to respond to that and extend our lease.

Okay. Uh but we've continued to maintain and operate the property under the terms of that lease. Uh and we'll continue to do so until we get a new one in place. Um but the goal is to have that done I hope uh in the near term.

Yeah, that will probably I would imagine be one of the conditions.

Yeah, absolutely.

On the release of funds.

Yep.

Absolutely. I think we could probably well I don't want to speak for anyone here but maybe get it done before September. We'll see.

No pressure.

No pressure.

And you know one of the things I think we had mentioned to you and I think this is true with the Dartmouth Cultural Center project. to ask um uh the Cody Hadada, town administrator, just to confirm kind of what these being public funds, just confirming kind of what are the requirements that you would have to follow in using the public procurement.

So there's confirmation that the 30B uh procurement would apply. So, we'd have to put the project out to bid.

Um, and prevailing wages, I think you've mentioned that the prevailing wages are in this correct cost estimate. Um but the one one question I have a you you've described the roles um of the folks participating in the project but and I u and you've you can't get to where you've gotten without some professional input from contractors and and um but um it isn't going to be guaranteed

that these are the people you're working with, right? Because you have to go through this public bidding process.

So, I just want to make sure you're kind of Yeah.

aware that if you accept these funds, if Tom would approve it, you're you're going to do an open bid process for something in this kind of dollar amount.

Yeah. I would be hopeful that I would, you know, my my gut is that they will be very competitive. We did get two prices to be frank. Uh, one of them came through, uh, an organization that had a relationship to somebody uh, working in town hall. Uh, their price was significantly higher. It was about 393,000 as opposed to 221.

Um, so and so it just I think I think these guys will be competitive in that bidding process, but I understand that we will have to put it to bid.

Yes. Um and um and the public bidding process is kind of an ownorous thing. So I don't know you all that the dya is how to manage a public bid process. Um I guess one of the things would be to if if the town can be some of assistance in that regard just so that the the eyes are dotted and the tees crossed.

Yeah.

I'm just aware that it's an ownorous process.

Yeah. um and hard. That's I will welcome any and all all kinds of expertise in this building for how those processes work, but hopefully um you'll get some assistance in in that regard with at least how to how to manage that piece.

I will say they've been fantastic partners thus far. So I would hope that we could continue that.

Been very responsive, more responsive than I could have ever thought they would be. So any other questions? Yeah, John just uh expand on Jim a little bit. Um little knowledge on lighting. I worked for the utility. Um I was a bit surprised when I saw the uh wattages of the fixture thousand watt metal halite which is old technology as you know and since then they've come out with high

pressure sodium and now LEDs and huge change of LEDs on the energy savings that you're very aware of. I was surprised that it went the lighting fixture only went from a th00and watts to 600 watts. And that's watts is the energy consumed. Lumens in foot candles is what you're seeing on on the ground.

Typically um you you had um an engineer look at this and I'm assuming you're familiar with the ESA standards, the lighting illuminating society of America. So they come up with standards of for a task, whatever that task is, whether it be a desk in an office or playing field, you're supposed to have so many foot candles. What did they produce any documentation to show what you have

today for foot candles and a lighting plan of the proposed work? Cuz that's very typically I've seen that a lot with the engineering. They'll give you a a plan to saying if you're replacing this fixture at this height with that fixture, this is the foot candles you're going to get. And it changes as you move around the field, but it determines whether you meet the standard or not.

Have you seen any of that? And are we exceeding the standard? Are we below the standard? We at the standard.

So, we should come up to the podium so that DCTV can capture what you because it seems as though we're got to be above the standard. If you know, when I look at the wattages being used, I'm I'm just surprised that it's only 400 watt savings.

Yeah. So, again, excuse me. uh thousand watt metal halli on day one will have uh its design foot candles given the distance off the ground, right? How high it is on a pole. That um the degradation on that is pretty significant as time goes by on a metal halli. They just increasingly become less and less efficient at producing light uh for every hour that they're in operation. So

what we do is the comparable LED fixture matches day one on that thousand watt metal halli fixture. Um and the cut sheet for the proposed fixtures will show the throw pattern and also the um foot candles given a specific height. Um it it's listed I forgive me for not knowing off the top of my head. Um but it is on the cut sheet that we have provided with the proposal for for

review. So we could get design or spec foot candles given the specific height.

So but to answer your question I don't have a physical drawing. Now again I want to I want to just make this known to the board right that we're doing our work that we've done so far because I have done a significant amount of work on this is solely based on the fact that the owner of C2S has such a vested interest in the town to do this work. So everything has had a consciousness about

it that we get to where we need to be without spending weeks and weeks and weeks of design work. So I don't have a CAD drawing that shows design LED footprint on the entire field. I don't know if your engineer what was his explanation of you don't know the standard he he met or not met or exceeded because my knowledge of lighting and I you know I' I've been to GE plane down

to South Carolina for a week for lighting school so you know I it's been years but I have a little bit of knowledge is that typically on a retrofit and I've retrofitted from metal halite to high pressure sodium high pressure to not a lot of LED work that was beyond my uh after my career. But anyway, um typically on a retrofit fixtures are reduced. Same poll, same task, parking lot, uh ball field

fixtures were reduced under this circumstance. I was surprised to see that the number of fixtures weren't reduced. Uh that it's the same amount of fixtures and only a 400 watt difference.

I But we'll I'm not going to hold up the project for that. I was just curious of what what is he seeing on the ground there and how Yeah. So you're definitely going to see improvement because like you you mentioned they do degragate over time.

There's no question you're going to see a big improvement but are we my question is are we exceeding the standard by uh because I don't think there's uh you get the degragation in LEDs that you saw in metal a highress sodium in past technologies.

That's correct.

Yeah. Yeah. So again, the big cell on LED, which is why if we looked up, we'd see LEDs everywhere here, is primarily because of the energy used to get the same light output, right? This is why Eversource pushes it. This is why all these utilities push it. So again, the goal was to maintain the same light output on the field that we see on day one for a metal halli that we would with

an LED retrofit. And I didn't want to go and I asked for a second opinion because I can be wrong.

do can we reduce the fixture count? And I was met with no, I don't think it's a good idea. I think what's the end result is probably going to be not as favorable as you think.

Yeah. I'm not going to I'm not an engineer, so I'm not a I'm just asking the question. I Yeah. No. Yeah. Again, I and this isn't something that I overlooked when I was doing this because ultimately it's got to be the least it's got to be the most affordable project, right? And it has to meet energy savings criteria. That's the way I sell a project. It it's got to have a return on investment, the whole

nine yards. So, step one, reduce the quantity of fixtures if possible. Step two, reduce the wattage so that the energy consumption to the town is red, well, to the DYAA is reduced in this case. So, when I'm looking at an energy project, those are my two main focuses.

And if I was able to do that here with uh a level of um uh a level of certainty that the end result wouldn't be diminished, we certainly would have proposed less fixtures. That's why we see the same fixture per fixture count uh in in the proposition. So, um I'm I'm happy to revisit it uh with with our lighting reps who specialize in in uh field lighting and sports lighting. Um you

know again uh however his initial uh suggestion was that we maintain the same quantity of fixture but we have that you know it's not going to change the outcome of this hearing but it it's probably a good question to ask to get that plan for amendments you know so what did you base it on what we had there now and what's the new foot candles and what is the IEES standards

so again foot candles the the the the replacement fixture was based on a 1000 watt metal halli what it what what it produces for folk candles at say a 34 or 40 foot pole. No, but I understand that the IE the IEES standards though dictate what's needed. So just because there was metal halite before you could have exceeded the standard or you could have be way under the standard potentially

and that's what an engineer would be able to tell you and hopefully he's looking at that standard that he's not overselling you on you got twice the foot candles than you really need for that task or on the same token underelling you know saying sure yeah you know the standards say this and we're only getting this you know it's it's a question worth asking because if there's an opportunity for savings that

you can reduce some lighting you There's money coming back to the town.

Mike, real quick layman question on that though. If if you did reduce the fixtures, wouldn't you have to relocate the location of the poles to spread that light out differently? So, isn't isn't that really an extra cost because now you're you know you're re-engineering the layout of the fixture or the poles.

I'm assuming I don't know that if that's true or not, but and then you're rerouting electricity and wires and everything else. Doesn't that add cost actually?

Pot potentially. Yeah. Uh so obviously if we reduce the number of fixtures because LED the nature of an LED is a very directional light fixture um whereas a metal metal hall has a really wide throw per fixture but we potentially would have shading concerns and you know we'd have to go there at night and aim every single light fixture and make sure we don't have shading on the field. The chair answer to Mike's

question is no. Just because the technology on fixtures, you know, there are different fixtures that do different task and they could keep the same pole the same height.

Correct.

Because that's an added expense you don't want to go through and they look at that.

This fixture may not work, you know, if we reduce the the number of fixtures, but we can change it out to this fixture and it will work, you know.

So there are different uh aspects they can look at versus adding that kind of cost.

So we said it we're going from expert to lay.

I'm not an expert. I'm just I have a little bit of knowledge. I want to go myself.

It's all relative. Expert to lay to novice question on the same subject. But partly I think I want to ask this because uh it wouldn't surprise me if that is the kind of question might come up at town meeting if we got that far.

with this. And so I have the experience of kind of having a a a flashlight with a a with D battery flashlight in my face versus an LED, right? LED is a lot brighter.

So that's I'm coming from that. So I think one of the questions we had is shifting to the LED. Um is this going to be a brighter field? Are there things that we need to think about in terms of a butters if there's going to be a real change in um the lighting and and your the answer in here about lumens was that maybe even the lumens will be lower. It sounds like maybe even less bright,

right? If I'm understanding that. So could you kind of Yeah. So the concern is if if it's a really well lit, you know, the be the beauty of the LED fixture is its ability to direct the light to the playing surface. So although the lumens might be lower on the field that it'll appear brighter because of the efficiency of the throw of the actual photons that are being emitted from the

LED, right? So the the the playing surface has that LED shine right on it.

Whereas a metal halli, there's a lot of light spillage that impacts a butters.

Whereas an LED fixture is very directional and it's light throw. So to answer your question, it typically helps a butters because it won't appear bright up in the air. It's going to appear bright down on the playing surface.

Great.

That might be a question you'll hear at at a town meeting kind of a thing. Okay, great. Any other questions? We probably should move on.

Great. Thank you very much.

Thank you everybody.

Is it fair to say that I feel enlightened?

I have learned something.

Okay. Um, next up, the Dartmouth Cultural Center. We have folks who can speak to that proposal.

I got complaints that we didn't share with the audience last time. Jeff, have some candy around.

Good evening. I'm Pauline Santos, president of the Dartmouth Cultural Center.

We have been waiting for a long time. I think people sometimes think that we're never going to get started and that bothers me because I've been at this since 2017.

So, we are very very close to getting uh the ramp getting in and the bathroom.

Those are the two main uh objectives that we need right away as much as we can. When we lock the door, most of our board and a lot of our volunteers are my age and when we lock the door, we have to pull the door and lock it and there's no landing. So, we're stepping on a step. It's really um very difficult.

Anyways, Katherine um will answer your questions and I'll come back up if you have a question for me.

Can stay up.

I can stay here.

So, it just means that all the other volunteers are 30 years old like Pauline here and looking forward to a vibrant um life as they age gracefully. So, uh, Katherine Duff, I'm with Studio 2 Sustain. We're the architects on the project and we're here before you this evening looking for, um, additional funding because as the project has gone through a couple of, uh, delays, lots of delays. Um, the uh, town lease,

change of leadership in the town at a couple of different levels. Then the lease lapsed. Then to get the lease back on on board took a while. And then they had to we're told they had to go out for a whole new um RFP process to get the lease. But all that's in the rearview mirror. They've got a good 30-year lease. We're looking forward to getting under construction. We've just recently

retained an attorney to help us through the public bid process to understand exactly what pieces of the regulations we have to abide by. We know it looks uh preliminarily we absolutely have to do a prevailing wage but not all of the obligations of the 149. So, but they have a lawyer. I don't want I'm not a lawyer. I'm an architect. Um but I will say we've we haven't stopped our work and we've continued to explore the

building. We did followed up on your request to do some exploration of all of the materials to make sure we're going to abate everything. We don't want to miss something in the process of rehabilitating this building. We have a historic consultant post oak. They have filed a PNF. It's been accepted by the Massachusetts Historic Commission. So, we're really um in good shape to really

do the do right by this building um to abide by the Secretary of Interior standards. It is a rehabilitation and um and we actually identified some material that was missed on the first uh pass at discovering some of the toxic materials in the building. And that is all of the glazing on the windows is um is hot as they say. And the uh layer of tile underneath the current layer, there's a couple layers of tile that

secretary of material standards. So, it really is a historic rehabilitation and I'm happy to answer any of your questions. So, or Pauline really the young right here to my left.

Yeah. Thank you. Other anyone from the present have questions or like to speak to this proposal or I turn it over. Okay. To the committee.

Questions?

Yes buddy.

Yes.

So, where we were I don't have when we first reviewed this project, I think we were all shocked with um what we originally asked for years ago and where we are today. What What were those two figures? What was the original award?

And now that just times a last, what's what's the increase you're looking for in uh funding on the overall project? I know it was shocking. Uh the first um award we received was $8,000 that we had to match.

Um there was an article in the Standard Times and uh a week later someone sent us a check for $8,000.

Then it wasn't the award. It was the estimate of the project that you had put together.

Okay. Then I'm answering the wrong question and the estimate today was shocking. Can you apologies I don't have that in front of me but um I will say uh construction cost of as I don't need to tell anybody in this room what you don't already know is that the cost of construction has escalated exponentially 67% if you really want to know the actual figure since 2019.

Um so that on top of the scope of the project just expanded. Initially, we were retained just to look at getting handicap access and getting handicap um util, you know, handicap access toilets in the in the facility. And as Dartmouth Cultural Center has used the building and begun to um really expand their programming, frankly, we've been able to observe other improvements that need to

be made to the building, both to enhance the programming, expand the programming, and to um maintain and preserve, rehabilitate the building, bring it up to code in some instances, but honestly um add some energy efficiency. very complicated to do when you're doing a historic rehabilitation, but not impossible. Um, and we expanded our scope, frankly, and and the building continues to deteriorate. I mean, I've

been be been before this, you know, thank you for your patience, and it's a pleasure to be here again this evening, but every year you go without making these um improvements, they the improvements don't go away.

they just kind of increase um and they get a little bit more expensive.

So I I but we have we will go out to public bid. I mean that it will be a competitive bid. So So you you've got the most expertise than anybody in the room on every gray hair every cost I see come before me every day.

Current projected cost and construction cost. I think um you know I'm a proponent of the project but um again I don't have the figures off the top of my head. I remember they were shocking at some at town meeting it was around 30 tough pill to swallow that you know 320 $320,000 difference tough pill to swallow. Are you confident that your projections are pretty accurate today on that if you were Tom

meeting were to award the project that you could do it um for that cost?

I'm confident I can do the work we listed under that scope. We not included in that. It's definitely not the specialty gallery lighting.

No. No. Uh yeah, given the current environment with construction costs and are you confident that we're not going to see you back in a year from now saying, "Hey, we underestimated the We added a buffer. We added a contingency in there." Um we did no question about it. I mean, I've got PTSD. Seriously, reviewing quotes daily.

I It's I just came from a public hearing on a public housing project and you know, we're looking at $780 a square foot. Never in my life did I think I would be seeing those kinds of numbers.

It It's tough to get in in in front of them. We do our best. Um but historic rehabilitation is is a little bit of a niche and um and we've we've tried to do some preveing on some of these costs.

Like when we got the news about the windows, we actually went out to bid and and we looked at the assessment. What's the cost to uh preserve that window to abate it and to put a airtight um allied storm panel on there which meets the Secretary of Interior standards and uh versus a replacement window. And it turns out we were it was about $1,500 an opening cheaper to actually abate the

window to paint it and put that allied panel on there. I probably wouldn't have guessed it would have been that much of a savings, but that clearly said, "Okay, we're going to keep the windows. We're going to really uh restore those windows, fix them, abate them, and um and put the storm panel on the exterior.

So, so we've done a little bit of that work, but you know, these costs are crazy. The the prevailing way to get a mason on a on a project to repointed is just it's crazy money. Um, and we'll get it tight because we'll bid we'll bid it competitively, but it's uh I'm as frustrated as all of you are.

I'm just like, don't kill the messenger.

No, no. I'm just I I don't want to be back here a year later. You folks back here later, you know, after, you know, if we get town meeting over the initial shock of the changes since the last time we were there that we have to go back again. It's just No, I appreciate that. I I really do.

And I and I will say that the I've spent a lot of time with the Dartmouth Cultural Center. I've attended a lot of their events actually. I mean, they do a lot, not just like a group of volunteers over there.

They do like poetry readings. They do interactive. They do dance interactive dance in there.

And what I've realized and we've we've done a little bit of redesigning of that office where the handicap bathroom's going and the sink to let that programming be able to expand and make it way more efficient. So, we actually expanded the design scope a bit in that front area and that's just going to make their organization run a little bit better. And we're able to get them the proper storage that they need because

they've got stuff hanging out in the space and we're able to design it's like on a boat, you know, you design a storage to fit one specific type of, for instance, their exhibit panels that they use and then the space opens up for more flexibility. So there's been a lot of design work behind the scenes that's sort of addressed a bunch of those needs and that just expanded the scope and

that's why we increased the budget and they're going right back to mass cultural facilities a big supporter of this project um for all of those reasons.

And we're all we we also are looking for other grants, other monies that we can use to do some of the things that won't be included. um TMA grant person is out there all the time looking for money.

So, and with the 30-year lease, we should be able to get some some better uh funding.

Yeah. And and they have an attorney now because the trick is a lot of the funders, the the grtors uh will not give money to the town of Dartmouth. They have they give money to the organization, the owner of the project, which is the Dartmouth Cultural Facility, and they fund a capital contract. They fund a capital project.

So the way those grants work is you s you go through a public bid process. You engage a contract with the most qualified uh low bid and then when you sign that contract you enter into usually it's an AIA contract professional contract. When those requests for payments come in and they get certified by the owner rep, that's me, the architect, they go to the grtor and then that grtor releases those funds

to the owner of the project. And so when you have the other owner in this mix of things, it gets tricky legally on how that grtor gives the money. They won't give it to the town. and they give it to the owner of the project, but now you have this other owner that owns the building that you have the 30-year lease. So, it's complicated. I'm not a lawyer. Um, but I work on projects with

these levels of complexities. And now they've retained a good lawyer with a lot of experience um understanding those contracts in preparation for getting ready to get under construction. So, it seems like, you know, one of the one of the big outstanding questions is kind of lingering out there is is around um what kind of bidding procedures you're going to need to follow. Um and I

know that was kind of the rationale for holding, you know, getting a 30-year lease, thinking that will um change some of the conditions for bidding. Um, and now you have an attorney who hasn't quite answered that. Well, the pre you had to I understand you had changed attorneys because yes, um, but your previous attorney hadn't quite answered that.

No, no, we didn't hear anything, you know, no fault or anything, but yeah, we had to make a change.

No, but but still uh that question's been out there for a while.

It it has too way too long.

Yeah. So once we get an answer and how will you get an answer? That's what I'm wonder if I we we need a letter from the state saying that either we have to go with the state procurement or we don't. So once we know that then yeah the attorney he's uh reviewing you know he's pretty experienced with the construction laws and going to itemize it for us in a letter to Dartmouth

Cultural Center and then he'll meet with the town of Dartmouth.

Is it the town or the state or I'm just trying to figure out how you all will get to that answer because it sounds like one it'll certainly affect timing um depending on the what procedure you have to and and then might also affect costs. I'm just figuring is it you have to be on the same page with the town or or you go to the state and then the town and the cultural center.

We'll do whatever.

We'll do whatever you know the lawyer finds out and tells us that's what we'll do. We want to get started.

Oh yeah, I definitely know that. I'm just trying to figure out how this this important question gets settled and stuff and and I know that you have to be on the same page with the town since the towns still the owner and needs to make Absolutely.

But so the attorney your attorney will produce an answer or get an answer from someone or Yes.

And as soon as we know that and their attorney is going to talk with the town, right? Yeah, it's gonna just for clarity, the project has to be publicly bid. Like we we will go out with that two week notice in local newspapers and we will solicit competitive bids.

The only thing outstanding is what pieces of the 149, which can get very complicated with municipalities. it's different than just public bid projects um have to be followed and that we will go out for public bid and we will also advertise for prevailing wage. So ideally you get a local contractor and the local contractor pays his crew prevailing wage.

I mean that's in a perfect world. Um, but we it's it's going to be some sort of a I I anticipate it be some sort our experience is we some sort of a hybrid of pieces of the chapter 149 and the prevailing wage in the public bid process and we hope to um get that resolved in the coming month.

I was going that was my other question.

Do you think that's a Do you think that'll get uh resolved before town meeting which is in June?

Oh, I hope so. Yes.

Yes.

Yeah. Because that's probably something we would want to um kind of know where you landed exactly what what that you know what that means for the project. Uh but certainly would be good to know that before town meeting so we have just more confidence about what what you're able to do going forward and stuff.

As soon as we hear we'll let you know.

Yes, we're pushing. Um you know lawyers don't always return your phone calls.

Oh really?

When they do it's expensive. So then you're kind of like you know I don't need to tell any of you anything you don't already know.

Now it cost $400. But we're pushing very hard and our uh we were hoping to have had that resolved before this evening.

But so except that he's on vacation.

That's how hard we're pushing. So we're we're pushing as hard as we possibly can without uh blowing the budget of the Dartmouth Cultural Center.

Yeah. And you've one of the things you mentioned is um that um the complexity of the bidding process.

You maybe beyond what your capacity is.

Understand that.

If that happens, we will have to spend money and hire someone to help.

Uh we can't, you know, I'm a fourth grade teacher.

I don't know anything. Right. Right.

Right.

We have to get people who can, you know, work with us and and uh go through it.

Yeah. Yeah. I would I would that would be my recommendation. I mean, as the owner's rep, I I've got to focus on the construction and making certain everything's abide. Also, the historic rehabilitation, it it aligns with the PNF filed with the state and then the approving all of the payexs. But the Dartmouth Cultural Center, you know, managing a public bid is can be a little tricky and they need some good.

We do have someone who um is willing to be our project manager, but it's not written in stone yet. So, um, you know, I don't want to say they've been going they've been putting their feelers out for some capital MA project managers that are retired, but helping out other organizations in town.

So, and they've come to a meeting and they've in indicated that they're willing to help. So, they've been doing their uh research and trying to get somebody to assist with that. So, regardless of how the chips fall, they're getting ready to be able to manage that that end of it. Um, so there's a bit of work behind the scenes happening and the good news is they keep raising money.

They're very good at raising money. Uh, so that hasn't slowed down at all. Um, and they continue to get asked to, uh, solicit for for uh, grants. When the MCC reaches out to you and says, "Send us in another request," you know that they're in support of the work that you're doing and the project. So, um, you know, that's the that's the success story with the organization. Other questions?

Yes.

Just to clarify, so if the if it the information you get back says that it's you have to follow the most stringent and you have to hire somebody, what's a contingency plan for paying for that?

And then if you're doing a lot of fundraising, is there I mean there's I see that you have um an MCC grant was initially part of the match for this, but I think one of the questions we had was you know is the cultural council able to put some into this as well like any matching funds? So those are two separate questions.

Okay, we have we have two accounts. We have our operational account and we have a separate account um that has been built up by donations. Um some of the banks have been giving us like $5,000 a year, that kind of thing.

So, we do have some funds that we can use. It's strictly for the construction.

It's not for operation.

And yes, there's another grant that's being filed for again another matching grant with mass cultural facilities and they have um delayed the release of they they've given continuences on the first grant. So they're in support of the project.

So that some of that money is still there. I think all of that most of that money is still there.

Yeah. The the trick really is the construction contract and how they release those funds to the to the owner of the project. I don't know why I do kind of above my pay rate. You know, it's a legal me too.

It's a legal wrangling. Yeah.

But other other organizations are going to face it as well. Going after large capital funds because that's, you know, those funds get released to the owner of the project, not to the town.

Any other questions?

Great. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Question.

Oh, yes. Please. If you come up and then introduce yourself to come up to the mic. tough question for you.

You still have to come to the mic.

She wants you.

Thank you.

Mary Lou Fryas, um, board member, Darw Cultural Center. So, I know the project well. Yeah.

It's three phases, correct?

And the first phase is what you paid for initially, $260,000 along with the MCC grant.

Regardless what happens, phase one goes forward. Doesn't matter whether we have to go out to bid with a state bidding or not. We're moving forward. That phase will be done.

The next phases are less definitive of how they will be funded. We are hopeful and we continue to raise money. We get a lot of community support. Um the question about attorneys, um our attorney is just a busy attorney and though he is in the state house in Boston checking for us about the state bidding, he's now running for district attorney. So that's the reason we have it was no distress. Oh yeah. It's why we

have a new attorney.

Understandable.

Who starts tomorrow.

Um and Dian Perry, who's the attorney, represented the Aken House in a similar nonprofit needing money. um and not wanting to do to do a bid process, a critical bid process, but not state bid process. And he was able to get that okay that the Aken House did not do state procurement, though they did do um fair wage. So those are the pieces I know. Um but one way or another, we're going forward with the

first part. Thank you.

All right. Thank you.

Thank you.

Message.

All right. Great. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Okay, our final project is the agricultural preservation fund. Susan's going to recuse herself.

Peace out.

Feel free to pass the candidate.

Thank See if I can get you set up here, buddy.

Hang on a second.

Everybody have a chance to receive the response to your letter?

I believe so. Um, yes.

I was firing stuff off to everybody.

Yeah. So, so that's okay. We appreciate it.

Great. Can you just start by introducing yourself? And we're just going to need DCTV to hook us up to the uh projector here.

Oh, okay.

Um I can get started.

Why don't you hold on a second while we get this set up that way you don't miss anything that buy a ticket? Stay for the show.

I never had so much paperwork.

This is my went to sleep on us. Yeah.

Crazy.

That's a little I forgot my phone. I'm trying to look it up on my phone. There she All right. Thank you.

I'll let you have the floor here.

Put it on.

And then you just want to hit the space bar to go to the next.

Uh so my name is Derek Christensen. I'm chair of the select of the agricultural commission here in Dartmouth. I also have a vegetable farm, a Brisb farm.

We're on Bakerville Road. We farm on APR land, which is a preservation restricted land at the King Farm property.

Um, so I'm just going to give a very brief uh pitch. Uh, hopefully everybody has had time to review our submission.

Thank you for doing that.

Um the reality is we're in a spot where we need growth on a statewide level. That's awareness. Housing has to come down the pike. Um I'm not going to say that we don't want to have development take place. The question is always where does that development take place? And um we're aware that land prices in Dartmouth are very high. So the cost to preserve farmland or conservation land uh is is oftentimes

different than what it would be in the pioneer valley or someplace like that.

Over the years, Dartmouth has really benefited from a number of resources through federal resources. The a preservation trust come comes through directed through the state program. And it was really about 30 years ago that the town came together and put together a bond for the first agricultural preservation trust fund.

That money is gone. It's been spent over the course of those three decades. And where we're at now is we're trying to establish a new fund that will allow us to act quickly, have capacity from the agricultural community to have a seat at the table with other conservation groups, um to make sure that the properties that we see on the horizon are have an opportunity to be preserved.

So um we're asking for uh Whoops, went backwards, but there we go. Uh $3.75 million over four years. This is not for a specific project right now. Uh we have as an agg conservation group along with nonprofits identified properties that we're aware might be coming up down the pike. Um so we've gone through all the legal aspects of this. This is you know allowable so on so forth. And what we're

aware is, you know, in the next 5 to 10 years, there could be some of the last properties that are still vibrant farms that haven't been protected yet in town come up. Some of those properties are in 61A, some of those properties are not in 61A. Um, and we would like to develop a fund that has the capacity when those properties come up that we can kind of act. And where this conversation started

um is partially uh with the the Westview estates on Tucker Road. Um if you're familiar with that property um and I'm not going to, you know, throw everybody under the bus, but I had a conversation with a conservation group when that property was up for sale and I think it was listed initially at $4 million and I said, "Well, you know, this is a property that's got potential for runoff

going down to the Pascamancet. uh it's active agricultural land and they were just like yeah they said two things.

They said a we've just hit up our donor base for another pro conservation project in town and the price tag is too high. We're not going to move on it.

Over time that property uh the transfer that property was not a $4 million transfer. It was actually less than that. But we didn't have any place to say hey let's make a pitch. And so what we're trying to do with the establishment of this fund is when these next properties come on board, there's two things that are happening. Number one is we're already have a capacity to say, hey, we have funds, not necessarily

going to be paying for all those properties necessarily with with this amount of money, but we have funds that we can lever the private donations and the state dollars to help preserve that farmland.

Um, anecdotally, one of the realities is there's always competing agendas and the conservation groups historically like the Coalition for Buzzards Bay is focusing on preserving water resources.

And when we address them and talk with them and say about let's preserve farmland, the farmland's almost like a it's keeping an active farm is a a good benefit, but it's not their intent. And what we have the capacity as an a commission is to say we want farming to be part of the conversation. We don't want to just be curate idle properties down the road uh you know that are

fields that are mowed once a year to walk through. We want to keep land in active agricultural production. So the pitch is really um it's not for me. I I have the benefit of farming on land that's already preserved. It's for the future generations that we don't know who those farmers are going to be to create the opportunities for them to continue on and create the, you know, make sure that the culture of

agriculture remains relevant in m in Dartmouth.

Do you want to?

Yep.

Thank you. Um Oops.

Uh Nick Wildman, the executive director of the Dartmouth Natural Resources Trust. I am not on the A commission.

DNRT is uh supportive of this proposal as you know from the packet that you received and DNRT was a chartered member of the trust fund that was instal instilled uh at the end of the late 90s and did tremendous work in this community. Um, this is a wonderful place to live in part because of the work that the a commission with its partners under that a preservation trust did. Uh, Copicut

Farms up near the Copicut reservoir, Eva's garden on Jordan Road, um, the old Moth property uh, there at the end of Horsene Neck. A number of these properties would not be have been protected without that trust fund that's now expended. This request puts the keys back in the hands of the people that know these lands the best to be advised by a group including DNRT and other experts here in town on various boards

and and uh committees. Now there are very prominent people in this town that'll tell you we don't need this fund. They'll say, "Look at just look at that article in Dartmouth Week. Those the Merryle Legs Farm, they they got that wonderful federal NRCS money, that USDA money. That money paid half of what that family should have gotten for that property." Now, that's wonderful. I'm so

proud. I'm That's wonderful that they could do that. Now, I happen to know that there are other two other farms recently that couldn't take half of what their land was worth for that conservation restriction, but a little sprinkling on top made that deal go forward. That's wonderful. Do you want to put that? Do you want to roll those dice that the next farm that George's farm that the Vincent farm that uh

Kingfisher farm is going to be able to take half of what their family deserves for that land and keep it in agriculture and keep our every day I drive to work and I see more of those signs. Stop overdevelopment in Dartmouth. All week every day I go to work I see a new one.

This is the kind of thing that puts the keys in the hands of the people who know how to drive the car. It reinvests in the future of this town and honors that commitment that was made in 1998 when that first trust fund was set up. And I'm very happy to be part of that. I know this is a large ask. I trust that this committee understands its fiscal responsibilities, understands its income

and its balance of priorities. We've seen some excellent proposals tonight and you're going to see excellent proposals next year and this fall. So, um I think in my discussions with the adcom, everyone recognizes that this is not the run-of-the-mill ask, and I hope that uh the ACOM has done well to answer the questions that that you all have had.

Anything further?

Great questions. Folks present have questions or like to speak any about this project, don't hesitate.

I think everybody's pretty much heard.

You introduce yourself.

Oh, sorry.

Y Sugaduchi.

um agricultural commission. Um everyone has pretty much heard what I've had to say over the course of many years. Um the one thing that I try to focus on is that these are working landscapes.

Uh so it's not open space that requires staff time on the part of the the the land trust. These are all properties that are placed in the hands and capable hands of qualified farmers. And and I just want to reiterate that Copicut Farms is probably our largest success to date. Um they've grown exponentially because of the opportunity that they had in purchasing that farm and they've been

given uh tremendous latitude and growing their business because of the quality of work that they've done there. So that was a definite win-win for the town and for them. Um and and this will give us the ability to hopefully to replicate that same type of farming operation.

Great. Thank you.

Anyone else?

Sure.

Uh Fred Dabney, member of the Dartmouth Agricultural Commission. Um, I've been a farmer in Dartmouth, oh gosh, since back 1970 and ran a nursery for many years.

And it's amazing when I see what's the changes have gone on in Dartmouth since that 1970 era where Dartmouth we raised that 3.75 million as part of the agricultural preservation trust through town meeting with hardly a beat because the town recognized how important agricultural was to the whole area in the town to the way people felt about why they wanted to live in Dartmouth.

And we're at a crossroads now where that chance is disappearing very quickly. And if we don't do something to ensure that we do have some agricultural land that is operational in town, it's going to make an enormous difference in the overall appeal and appearance and the way people feel about this town. Thank you.

Thank you.

All right. Yes, please.

Absolutely.

My name is Jeff Kinder. I am a farmer here in Dartmouth for the past gosh 15 18 years. Um I'm a member of the egg commission as well. I just was here listening to all the other proposals. There's cultural center. There's youth youth um athletic association proposal for a park. all these things that are of benefit to the town of Dartmouth, the character, what we want to see as a community and agriculture

feels different from those things. I think it's been categorized as potentially as a business over the years um and sort of a private undertaking. Um but what I see in agriculture is um as it changes now it is becoming a really interactive thing where commodity farming is less and less common in spaces like this. So the the presence of the working landscape like Sue said um in a community like this I just I think

the value of that presence is continually being redefined and for the egg commission to be able to sort of um help to identify that value and give value to that by leveraging funds like Derek said um I think brings a a uh a spirit to the to to to the soul of Dartmouth that I think I hear people want to continue to see and I think it brings a lot of value. So

great. Thank you. Thank you. Uh anyone else turn this committee questions?

Yeah, Mike. Um, so I appreciate all those comments and actually Sue and Jeff, you just touched on something I was thinking about, but I still don't have a clear picture because I'm totally a novice in this world. Um, so the difference like Sue, you mentioned, it's not open space, it's active agricultural farming and the benefit of that, right?

So what I'm trying to figure out is how how it works, like how it plays out. So like if it's open space, you buy the conservation restriction, it stays as open space. If you buy the development rights on the land and you preserve it as agricultural land, how does it become agricultural land? Who gets to who gets to farm it? How do you decide who the farmer is and who you know who's

involved in that process and you know because there you know you're putting public money into something to your point I think you just mentioned Jeff that's thought of as a private enterprise. So, how does that work? You know, I don't know. If someone could just explain that process to me, I think that would help me to clarify it in my head.

Um, it's it's definitely on a case-byase basis and you know, inherently with that, there's a lot of different agricultural enterprises in town and some are really successful and some kind of flounder and go through it. But it what this would be is uh you know sometimes like with with DNRT properties they might potentially own the land and then allow it through a lease agreement for farmers put out a bid. Um there's

other scenarios where a land group will come in and hold a conservation or an a restriction and it'll be a private sale and transfer to the next generation whether it's in their bloodline or not in their bloodline um for somebody to take that on. But it's not a one-sizefits-all. It really depends and a lot of that comes down to conversations about um sometimes the directives from the previous land owner

or the current land owner what they'd like to see happen with that property and then also who the partners are.

We've I mean DNR has done a tremendous job um I'd say since I moved to town in 2008 they've really come up to speed with understanding like the role of stewarding agriculture land in addition to just conservation land. Um, so you know, Nick could talk more about how they go through that process, but typically it's a bid process. Um, asking for business proposals and, you know, the land group that's kind of might be

stewarding those would come back and say, um, you know, here's the most competitive. If you look at some of the past ones like Copa Cut that Sue mentioned, uh, that was a public RFP for, you know, what and they were selected and so yeah, I would just add to that. Um uh there there's no necessity for DNRT to be involved in a given land transaction. Uh there the the question

the concern we've heard for the past few years especially is that the town departments don't have the capacity the person power to oversee their conservation restrictions and to check on the land that the town owns. And so that responsibility has increasingly been pushed off um to others. So there may be a role for DNRT in those cases as well. Um in in other cases uh that conservation restriction could be

co-held by a conservation group and the town where the conservation group has the responsibility for oversight and whatnot without burdening those town uh resources. But again, you know, just as with the a trust fund, there will be projects if this is funded that have nothing to do with DNRT or maybe we just simply bring funding and then that purchases an agricultural protection restriction that kind of the state

enforces and and lives with the property as as Derek was saying. So I think there's a lot of flexibility in this and it can look a few different ways but the key is to have those funds available in the power of the ad commission with the input from the folks who will be uh asked to sign the memorandum of agreement that was submitted uh in draft form to you all so that there's some

consensus and some good information sharing from the different departments.

Thank you. Of course appreciate that. I just I'm gonna please take your question in a second, but listening to what Nick said, I think another thing that I didn't understand as well as I do now is the role of farmers or like Sue in that sense like there's a brokerage where there's certain properties where farmers, you know, they don't really want to deal with the DNRT or the the co

coalition for budgets bay because for whatever reason they just have a negative association with some of those nonprofits.

And so the other thing that's sort of unspoken here is is in the same way that we might do mediation between, you know, farm animals have issues in neighborhoods, there's opportunities with some of the property owners where if the a commission or folks from the community aren't in that conversation, probably the conversations don't take place.

So get a question. I just have a question and um I don't know who's better to answer it, but I know Sue keeps her thumb on what's happening. Uh I'm surprised to see a number of APR farms now on the market and I'm surprised to see the prices.

Is that something that it is?

I mean, I keep my eye that's a perfectly good question and because let me just finish.

Yeah. Yeah. when let's go back six or seven years, the API uh farms did not demand that kind of price. So, I'm really surprised to see it. But also, I'm noticing that they're still on the several of them are still on the market for that kind of money because you can't really you have to and it's a good thing. I'm not saying it's a bad thing because I like that. But that's a lot of

money for something that you know, you know, I love it because they give you a disclosure and they say, "Uh, it's up to you to get it out of APR." That's not that easy to get out of APR.

Yeah. Yeah.

Are is anybody surprised at the prices of APR Farm?

I mean, I speak candidly like, so the Brown L property that, you know, was transferred for about a million dollars and I believe was on the market now for $4 million. The reality is like um you know there's not a farmer that's going to be buying that. Maybe there's a gentleman farmer that's decided to you know retire and you know burn money that way. Um to some degree bringing this fund to

place creates that sort of due diligence on a public nature as opposed to keeping it just always in a private sale. I mean with private sale I mean it's hard to know you know it's hard to say this farm will succeed or this farm won't succeed but I would be hopeful you know I think number of the farms that the the funds used in the previous three decades have been successful um I can't speak to the

situation there I mean the dairy industry the folks that bought that are in the dairy industry the dairy industry like agriculture as a whole is a really um extremely difficult way to make a living it is And there's certain parts of it that are even more difficult. I I milt cows when I lived in New York before I moved here in the winter times and I grew veggies and uh I loved working

around the cows. I was like I would never think about milking cows because I just I couldn't see the numbers like we were like getting paid the same dollar figure more or less in 2005 and six that the farmers are getting right now today. So um yeah. So, let me just clarify something because Michael asked a question. Um, when you buy, let's say, let's use the farm that you just mentioned. Okay. So,

if that farm's on the market, now it is over $4 million and and you have your fund. you get money from us and you make an offer after it's been on the market for two or three years and it's an APR farm so you're going to use it as a farm and you make an offer and it's accepted then you have to find a farmer right and then that's the question that I don't

know that you were asking or not how you make a determination who's going to farm that property explain to us what happens from that point on great why don't you jump in Sue because you've been more involved in had in the past.

And because this is going to be something new for us, I'm going to base it on my experience with the egg preservation trust.

It would go out as an RFP.

We would get proposals from farmers from farmers and then we would sit down. We have the criteria all laid out. I think you received it in your packets. We would go through the criteria and based on the proposals we had and decide who met who was the best match based on soil type, based on you know what their farm plan looks like on all those issues and then that's how they were chosen and

surprisingly enough it was based on not on the price but on the strength of their farm business plan.

Okay. Thank you, Susan.

Other questions? Clarify.

Did I help you?

Yes, I did. Yeah.

Um, how um how did you come about figuring out what to ask for in terms of what what the what kind of money a fund like this really needs to be effective?

Um, well, it could be a lot bigger in the sense of from a resource perspective. Um, you know, what we tried to do is is put a little bit of an upfront to to have greater capacity out the gate. Um, but with an awareness of some of the properties in town that were sort of are on our radar and looking at previous comps. Um, aware of one of some of the properties that weren't able to

be preserved in the last five to six years and had conversations like, well, how much do we really need to make make a difference? Mh.

And the idea there, I mean, I think what's acute to me, so I I moved to to Dartmouth in 2008. I I didn't know Dartmouth when Fred spoke of it. And I've often told people, I said, I don't know if I'd actually want to farm here if I knew what it had been once upon a time because I think I'd have like that like generational heartbreak that comes with change. Like, and just can be

completely honest, right? Um, but when I came here, I came here for the Tucker Road property, the Dominican Sisters, that was offered as a a lease agreement.

You know, it was only through that opportunity that Dartmouth even popped up. My wife grew up on the vineyard. Her dad was a a ground fisherman. He uh brought his fish over to New Bedford.

So, we were sort of like, this is gets us in that zone. Um, when we look at the properties today, what I'm aware of is we're getting to the point where there's a lot less of them still on the potential radar going forward. And so when I see this fund is I think it it's hard to say, but you know, it's it's going to be the leverage hopefully that allow us to preserve some of the last

key properties in town. in 10 years from now, the conversations that we're going to be having is probably most of those circles up there have gone through a transfer. And whether they go into development, like I I'm super prodevelopment, but I want to see development take place in places in town where maybe it makes sense. And obviously from an agricultural perspective, I think agricultural land

is not that place. um or if it gets preserved then we'll continue to add more preservation. But I don't think this is a um you know this isn't a conversation we're going to constantly have because at some point the opportunity the door is going to be completely closed and um folks that have been in town probably have a better more acute sense of like how that feels. But I know even since I've been here in

2008, um there's been a lot of farms that have transitioned over that time period. Um both towards development, um I think of I mentioned to Sue, not a farm that I knew of as a farm, but the the open space across from UMass Dartmouth, um you know, that that I think I would think of it as more as like the field I used to occasionally see the cross country kids run across

through and stuff like that. I never knew that as an agricultural property, but at the same time, I also was like, boy, it would be nice to have that little piece of land. Like, that would be a great property for somebody to do what I do, which is like high value vegetables or fruit or something like that right across from. So, at some point, all of these opportunities will no longer exist.

And what we're trying to do is hopefully create those opportunities for the future generations. And it's kind of now or never is the feeling that I get. So, do you want to speak any more about how we came up with the number or other things?

Um, it was somewhat based on the fact that we started with the 2.75 million in 1998 and we didn't want to we wanted to make enough of an ask that we knew we could make somewhat of a difference. But if you had looked at this, if we had put the circles on this map of farms that existed in 1998, you would have seen a whole lot more red circles for sure.

um the the farm that Derek um alluded to across from UMass Dartmouth. I don't want to get like it that farm was also on the university side as well and that part that the portion of that farm was taken by eminent domain. So, if you ever have a chance to look at aerial photographs of the university prior to its development, it's it's enough to make you cry because that was a huge

area and it looks just the way you would expect to see large farmland plots in Pennsylvania and they just don't exist anymore. And the the 2.75 million that we were able to get because of the override gave us an opportunity that we didn't have before because the state was not interested in preserving farmland. And by the state I mean the that at the time it was the division of it was the

department of agriculture which it today it's a little different but they were not interested in coming down here because they always said they got a a bigger bang for their buck out in the valley.

So why would they come here?

and they they pretty much had written this area off as a bedroom community for Boston and people that lived here just weren't willing to see it that way and we were fortunate in that respect.

In terms um first any other questions from folks um we did get um um the opinion from uh town council um just confirming um that that by statute the all the town can set up such a fund without does not need town meeting approval. by statue. Such a fund can be um basically created by just putting money into it. It's an accounting kind of thing. Um and and we did ask about

transferring a balance of the a trust money if there is any. I think there's a small balance compared to what it started with. Um that isn't as clear. So just so folks know it's not it's not so straightforward and um that that money could just be transferred in um and what you uh have resubmitted in terms of more more clearly describing the egg commission role uh and the statute and the advisory

committee's role um for the town council that that that squares everything in terms of CPA uh eligibility in terms of um capitalizing a fund. Um do you envision um in terms of how to operationalize such a fund? Do you envision um using basically adopting pretty pretty much what the a trust bylaws kind of in terms of procedure administration of of the funds, you know, sort of how would you evaluate?

Yeah, I mean I think the proposal etc.

The egg preservation trust fund hasn't done a lot of transfers in recent years.

Um but I think up until the point that it kind of diminished its resource base, it was seen as a successful technique and model. So I don't think that we need to, you know, drift very far from that.

Um you know, I sitting here, you know, there's probably some things we need to discuss in terms of like who would get recused if certain properties come up and how, you know, those kind of decisions take place. Um I think there was some confusion maybe the last time I wasn't able to make the meeting about like how much was in the egg preservation trust you know and I think one of the realities is because that had

dwindled to a point where it wasn't as significant there wasn't as much like consistent accounting and I think you know we would go back to you know on the egg commission meetings you know in as part of every meeting we would introduce minutes that would involve checking into our fund base and so on and so forth.

Um, so yeah, I think it would be a fairly similar situation. So, does anybody feel differently? I don't want to speak for everybody else.

Yeah, I imagine you're going to have to adopt some kind of procedure and and policy but yeah, but I think they've laid the groundwork for what what has worked well in the past. I don't think, you know, it'll be probably some minor tweaks to update, but I mean, the the big things that have changed over the years is obviously the land values have continued to go up. Um and thankfully for us the

the partnerships that have taken place both through DNRT coalition trustees to some degree um those have all been tested more over the years and so I think there's also a little bit more acute awareness of when certain properties come up.

We already know like which properties the coalition scores highly on their rubrics. We have a conversation with with Nick and and so on and so forth and we have already kind of scored internally.

Okay, great. I think as as like theou with that lays out what the advisory committee's role is and any of the kind of procedures, you know, I think we we I would imagine we would assume as a committee that this is keeping the town administrator and select board in the loop as these just so everybody can stay on the same page.

Yeah. Um because I imagine, you know, select board signatures are pro or approval probably needed ultimately when you decide we're going to move on this property.

Yeah. And I think there's opportunity big checks without this.

No. And I think there's opportunity. Um obviously COVID was sort of a you know, everybody went into their caves. Um, and you know, I think there's opportunity to re-engage town administrator like, you know, we used to do a little bit more farm tours and kind of engagement of of of not necessarily the public, but the leadership in town, you know, and so I think those are opportunities that we

can kind of reconnect with. Susan's been terrific at CAP. you know, a lot of a lot of the the state legislatores, but we probably could circle back and think about, you know, revisiting like could we get Vince and Elizabeth to do a tour at Copa Cut to kind of showcase what's happened there. Um I what what I'm always aware of uh when I first moved to town um I was working with a nonprofit

at the Y the first year and we were working with some funders and what I didn't realize because I only knew things through an agricultural lens which is you know farmers tend to like get in there and just keep working and working and working is there just how much trans um how much leadership change takes place over time and how there needs to be kind of a constant re-education. And I um you know we've

done that at for various points to various degrees with our town leadership. Um there's obviously certain select board members that are you know more connected to the aggra community than they are. I think there's opportunity then to to reconnect that.

Great. Thank you. Any other questions?

Thank you.

Yeah. Really appreciate Oh.

Sure. You can do that. came online and listening to the conversation about how um how these funds can be um useful. Um I've witnessed a few fundraising campaigns and conservation efforts over the years. Um and one thing that has become obvious to me is that um when it comes to fundraising efforts to preserve farms, a lot of times neighborhood support is very important.

Um so farms that are in neighborhoods that are more well funded as it were um a lot of times have a greater likelihood of raising money for conservation efforts. Um, one of the things that would be valuable for the a commission to have some of this this funding is that we could recognize agriculture as the first priority in preserving land and it might actually allow us to value land specifically for its agricultural

viability as opposed to pieces being conserved based on fundraising from from within a neighborhood. It might be a a way for taxpayers to sort of potentially feel more empowered with their money going to not necessarily conserve properties only in certain neighborhoods but also you know throughout more sort more widely spread throughout the town.

That was just something that came to mind.

Thank you.

Okay. I have a motion to close public hearing.

Basket uh valley project. Has that been pulled?

That yes with the parties weren't ready to go forward.

Motion to uh close the uh public hearing.

A second.

Second.

We want to talk about that further. I don't think so. All in favor? I All right. Thank you all.

All right. I think um Shall we proceed?

I will check in as we go to each agenda item on our stamina. And there is still more banana bread out there.

Yes, there is.

Yeah.

No, but you are going to Thank you.

Okay. Um, we're going to take a look at our finances going into this conversation.

Um, we're familiar with this format, but I just want to walk us through it.

We um, so this is an estimate of what our FY27 um, budget would look like. Um the state match that our estimate is carrying is 15%. Uh Department of Revenue just recently um put out a notice that they anticipate a 15.5% match. So we're kind of in that ballpark.

um based on year-over-year 2% increase in collections which has been holding pretty pretty pretty steady year to year that would we would have an estimated searchcharge revenue in fiscal 27 of about $970,000 and a little bit more. So 15% of that by our estimate is about another 142 $143,000 in state funds which brings us to about $1.1 million expected revenue CPA revenue in fiscal 27.

We have no debt service.

Um if we uh approve our standard administrative budget that would be $35,000. So the net revenue um projected is 1,78,000.

We have we we are projecting going into the fiscal year of having a reserve balance as of June 30th of this year.

Our projection is a reserve balance of about $4.6 million.

Um so if we hit that number, we'll be very close to it, I would imagine. Um 4.6 six million and then another a million um plus a little bit more than a million in revenue. We're somewhere in a five.6 uh 5.7 million available for um projects in fiscal 27.

So any questions about that? That's kind of the picture what we're what we're kind of looking into.

um forward into and then buddy just to go back to the application for a second. So we had four and it looks like one two three of the four are all in open space. Is that correct? Would they all fit into like Dval Crapo and the um the LA the um Yes.

Sorry. The last one we just heard the Yes. Commission. Yeah. They would all go all four of those would go in. So there's five.

So yeah, four of the five.

Yep. That's right. and we can use the reserve and the unrestricted towards that and revenue. So we have a we have um a special reserve account, the unrestricted reserve reserve account and then any incoming money can be committed towards um these projects.

Okay, that's kind of the base that's kind of our our projection going into the fiscal year.

Um, I'm suggesting that we continue with our standard administrative budget. So, I just wanted you all to take a look at that, which is $35,000.

Um, 3600 staff support, 2400 in supplies.

Um 3500 in the pres preservation coalition dues. I haven't heard that they're changing. Um $5,000 in legal uh $10,000 for any um consultation.

Um and that uh leaves us with um still having a $3,500 well actually $10,500 contingency.

Um so my as we kind of go into making decisions um my recommendations we just continue with the standard administrative budget. Um I don't think we have ever spent our standard administrative budget. I think we usually come in about Well, was that funny? I'm sorry.

I don't think we've ever spent the whole administrative.

So it all just rolls back into the unrestricted fund for projects in the future.

Make a motion we approve a administrative budget this year for a total meeting of $35,000.

A second on that, Jim. All right. Any other questions on that? All in favor? I post that's unanimous

in terms of project reserves. Um we'll as we discuss warrants um it may be a little bit more clear what we want to do with project reserves but um based on the proposals before us we would um need to put reserves in um housing but the historic preservation and the open space proposals if we are recommending them if they're approved prove they would meet the the our 10% requirement. So we may want to

think about how much we want to decide about reserves in this at June town meeting because we also have October town meeting to adjust any of our reserves and stuff.

That's what I have to say about that.

Okay.

So, um, to make our life a little bit easier, I've kind of, we always look at our warrant templates.

Um, and what I did is kind of um spelled it out a little bit more specifically on these projects so we don't have to keep thinking about all the different things to insert into the warrant template. So obviously this is the 2027. So I just put that in everywhere and um who the project sponsor is. I've stuck that in. though as we talk about these and then want to make our decisions um we'll go back to

these templates but mainly the thing we need to think about is how much from where if we're going to support something and those are the two figures uh two things to figure out and then and I I'm hoping that makes it easier for you to know what we just did.

Okay.

Um, so buddy, can I just clarify just to make sure I understand?

Yes.

So, um, in terms of what we have available in each reserve, Yeah.

Uh, if I look at because we have two historic and three open space. So, I'll just pick on historic for a minute. So historic you're saying the balance approximately right now is 636,000 a little over and then we are you're adding in the revenue up above or the proportion 10% I think it is that gets put into that.

Yeah if we were to do that that's what it would look like. Yeah. And then we so so when we're evaluating those proposals we have 748,785 in that reserve or we will projected which we could apply and then anything beyond that we would have to take from the projected unrestricted.

Yeah.

Okay. Just making sure I'm reading that right.

Yeah. and we can decide um that let's say if um let's so one of the historic ones uh is over $112,000 so I think let's just say DCTV to be easy about that um we could choose not to put anything into reser reserve so then the reserve com the the historic commitments are are against the 636 six.

Mhm. Okay.

So, we don't have to put in the 112 and then draw it down. We could just draw it down if we have more than $112,000 in commitments.

But you can't mix match. So, in other words, we don't have any housing proposals in front of us. So, we couldn't take the 112 and put it towards historic. That's that's not allowed.

Can't do that.

Right. So, we know we have to put 112 at least 112 into the community housing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, because that those it the the 10% is a 10% set aside or project commitment from the estimated fiscal year revenue.

Okay. Yeah. Thank you.

Okay. Um DCTV um

back to the bottom of the file now.

historic preservation. Um, the amount of funds requested $461,394.

Buddy, if you don't mind, can can we have a big picture discussion before we take up?

Sure. Yeah. start us off.

No particular order uh of of funding. So um from my perspective um this is an unprecedented year. We've got the most tenure. I mean we've never seen this before.

Yeah.

This amount of applications for this amount of money in my tenure and it's been over 20 years you and I have been here. So unprecedented. Um so I would like to have a discussion with the committee. uh you know we're looking at uh from my figures 3.6 6 million plus if we fund all these requests five requests uh this year. Uh so from the big picture I want to ask the committee to get a

consensus do we want to spend that entire that much this year and if we don't then let's have a discussion on prioritizing before we start to say well DCTV just has to be the first one on the page that may be the one you know the majority may want to cut that one or another one so I just want to have that discussion and try to get people thinking about the big picture, right?

Do as much as, you know, we've kind of been we've been here a long time. Um, just about every request that's the from what I can recall, buddy, the only time we've denied requests is because they didn't meet the letter of the law because we couldn't.

Probably true.

It was never uh I'm just not in favor of the project.

you know, we've always, you know, felt that they were decent projects. We had the money and we uh we were able to fund it. We're in a position now that we may have to start looking at do we want to start really prioritizing and and maybe looking at cutting some of this. I look at um New Bedford. I don't know what their u I'm sure their revenue is much greater than us and their requests are

much greater, but they we're giving out million dollars. They're giving out $100,000 for this project, for this, you know, they're giving out 30,45 $100,000, you know, and I'm like, geez, we're fortunate we're not we don't have to be in that position when somebody comes in asking for a million dollars. All we can give you is a hundred. We're not there yet. But we got to seriously think that

we're going to be there that we're going to have to stop making some cuts because we can't sustain this. And the CPC, in my opinion, has kind of been a sleeper in town as well. But it's getting more and more recognitions where the town is hitting us up more often than they ever did and organizations are hitting us more often. They they did. Uh and uh we're not we're very transparent on what

how much money we go, where it is.

Anybody can look up that information. So we're getting quite popular. So we're going to have to make some tough decisions. And I think this year may be uh the start of it. So I'm putting that out there.

Yeah.

Other big picture perspectives.

Well, I just want to clarify something with joint you said John. So in terms of the big picture, so one of the requests has you know it's an it's a forward committing process of 750 for the next three years beyond this year. So we have to factor that into the equation too I assume based on our current reserves because we don't know what we're going to get in the future. I mean, we could

continue to get 15%. We could I mean, again, we have a ballpark of what we're going to get, but um my point is we still have to factor that into this equation, right, of the funding decision. So, if you add up that total plus all these other totals, we're looking, I think, at like 5.8 million roughly in total requests.

Yeah. Well, we're not voting tonight.

No, no, no.

Right. That's, you know, they haven't applied for the 750 each year. I'm I'm sure they will, but doesn't mean we can committing to it. We may we right we may not commit to that next year. So even though we've been made aware we may not that request I think the request is to for us to commit to it.

I I thought they did too.

They're asking us to commit now.

Oh I don't think we can. We can't commit.

I thought I thought they were I don't know I don't know what I can say and can't say. I don't know but I I don't think Can the CPC do a multi-year?

Yes. in okay because someone was telling me that a town a town meeting can approve a multi-year that was a question before and I think that's the way it's worded in availability funds.

Absolutely.

So I think is that what they were asking for?

Yes.

Oh okay. I I didn't I thought it was just a million five in year one and we can do that legally and and we can talk about that.

So yeah I definitely want other big picture other big picture perspectives on all or some of this.

Yeah. Just as someone who runs a nonprofit, funding is really tight right now and everybody is fighting tooth and nail for every available dollar and I don't expect that to change in the foreseeable future.

So I think a lot of people are ex, you know, looking for where they're going to unique different places.

Margaret, big picture. Um the the only thing I'm going to say uh because I think when they come here and ask us for money, they should have everything lined up and done. Okay. Um the ball field, they haven't gone before the Brussels Mills historic. There's a chance that they might say no to that. um that neck of the woods we have a lot of land that is either in CR or uh public okay so we

have I don't know maybe a thousand acres uh housing is a problem right now I'm hesitant because I don't think that house should be torn down uh that house although it's not old enough for historic it does have a lot of historic uh value to Russell's Mills Road. That was Chief Deval's house. He was the fireman uh fire chief for many many years. Um they started at at a price of $995,000

for that house. Maybe if they had started a little lower, maybe a family would have bought that house. I'd like to see a family in that house. I I don't think that we need to knock a house down for 2.5 acres when we have a park next door. We have the uh tennis courts, we have the fishing, the you can hike, you can put your canoes out there because I

I do it. I put my canoe out there. So the big picture for me is I'm not crazy about the baldfield and John said we never say no but I'm I think they should have gone to um the Russell Mills Historic Society.

Let me pull you back to big that's that's the little picture and we will have that we'll get to that big picture.

Okay.

What's your big picture?

When you say how much money should we should spend is that what you're saying?

No, just kind of big I mean as John said this is very unprecedented amount of requests.

We can can we afford it? Can we not afford it? That's a big picture view.

Okay.

Um I think we have to be careful. I agree I agree with uh what Michael had said.

This is a lot of money and you know life changes. You know as you get older you realize that life changes and things change in life. So I don't want to see the CPC without any money. I mean there's things that are needed. Yeah.

Things that are needed in the future and I would like to make sure that we have money for those other things that may be needed. That's all. That's my big picture.

Christina, I think my big picture is uh goes back to some of the things people spoke about with the changes to the town over time.

I grew up here. I moved away in 83 and I came back in 2013 because this was the only place I wanted to be again. And the character of the town surely had changed, but there was enough there was so much that was still so good and so much the same. And a lot of that has to do with land.

And so I think when I think about the most worthy projects and where the big money should be spent, it's on it's on preserving that those parts of the character of the town that if they get snapped up or if a family were to buy that parcel of land and and tear that house down anyway and put up something else or it the loss of land.

um is the thing that tugs at my heart the most and that I think the money is most worthy to be spent on and I know that there are different ways to look at that and the different projects hit hit that differently but um you know I haven't had enough time on this this um you know committee to to have the perspective that you do but I think that money if we don't spend it

now preserve that And you can't you can't undo that.

May I May I just say one thing?

One one small thing.

No one can tear anything down in the historic without going for permission. So you can't do that without getting permission.

Right. I understand that.

Jim, big big picture.

Speaking of the uh the devolved um parcel, that's little picture. That's little picture.

because we will talk about the we're have that opportunity. I as I bought you to tears in the past with um I was on CPC in another town and um over a period of years um we we were selective and we were we were much more active in fine-tuning uh the proposal proposals that came to us and which I think saved or kept some of the cost down. But as a consequence of that over uh

over the first dozen or so years of the community preservation act, it's a town about the size of this with roughly a million dollars a year of revenue. Um, we managed to build up u unallocated reserves of over $5 million.

And um the folks in in the town hall who were worrying about the rest of the town budget, I think noticed that.

And uh there was in the town a large park um a large and complicated park uh which was capable of absorbing the $5 million um through many because of many years of um uh deferred maintenance.

Um, so I mean if if we are sitting on reserves of $5 million, um, we are I mean, we'd have a hard well, we'd have a hard time turning away projects that we may not deem as particularly worthy.

Um so um that's an argument in favor of um uh you don't need to keep too much dry powder.

Um that's uh and you know and we will we will disagree but you know I look at the at the uh cable studio as deferred deferred maintenance and that's small picture I know it's talk and we'll come back to that.

Let me move to Joan since since this is your second what second meeting.

This is my second your big picture. My big picture is that I want to go home.

I want to go home.

I understand it's your second meeting tonight.

I'm still on a learning curve. So, uh, but I do understand. I mean, everything sounds like a worthy project. I'm unfortunately coming through coming to this with the most projects you've ever had. So, this is Yeah. But I do understand the budget, you know, the concern of depleting all the funds in the CPC. So, um, you know, so I I just I guess I don't I don't have a good answer on that because

I'm just learning. So, that's a great answer though.

No, I appreciate that. Um, yeah, I think for me, um, there a couple of things.

Um, one is, um, you know, I think for the for the taxpayers who put aside that search charge every year, it's really important that there's a public benefit, something tangible, right? The it this is not a rainy day fund. Um, and so I I'm always concerned about um that we can go that town meeting and the town residents can point to tangible tangible CPA projects. Our accounts don't mean anything and shouldn't mean

anything to a taxpayer because that's money that they contributed to. But until we until it goes out as a project, um, it's it's meaningless. Um, and so I'm always thinking about that, right?

You know, that it's more important to be tangible than in the bank, but the fiscal piece is important. Um, because we want to be able So that and and so I think that's one thing. And then the other part which I think is probably for me a big picture of of why most projects do go forward to town meeting is in reality we are not decision makers.

We have no authority right the statute is very clear the the decision-making body for CPA funds town meeting. And so I'm always careful that we are not a gatekeeper in ways that we should not be a gatekeeper. If there are issues about the merit of a project outside of eligibility, outside of financial management, outside of fiscal, those are all important that we're we're doing the due diligence for town

meeting. That's our job. We're the people with the little green visors in the back room, but the board of directors is in that very fancy seat in the in the high school auditorium.

And so that's true.

That's where the decision about is it I think is it good to take down the house or not? Do you like that or not? I don't I appreciate your opinion, but I think that's belongs to town meeting.

question in terms of whether whether it makes a difference whether town meeting even gets to consider it.

So we have to I so I'm always careful that we are we're a due diligence group.

We're not making policy decisions for town meeting.

Um and so we have to think about that.

And then financially I think it's really important to think about we want to be able to be responsive in the future. And so when I look at these numbers, one, we've have we've had I see we have this unique issue of this enormous reserve in historic preservation. So I'm thinking we've got to use we that money needs to be tangible. It needs to be a project someplace. So, I'm thinking that if that

money could be drawn down, that's super important because typically our historic preservation requests are very, very small, very hard to draw down this reserve over years.

And then I'm thinking we probably bring in and will continue to bring in about a million or a little million plus a year. So part of my calculation in my head is how much we spend and then against the revenue stream that is pretty consistent.

It's not a very erratic revenue stream only the state match which is which is about like I said we're running like 15%. So 80 80 85% of our revenue stream is very stable. um the searchcharge revenue um so there's some predictability this is highly unusual kind of session but I don't see so I would I would need to be convinced that this is a our trend going forward this is super unusual

um and then financially in the back of my head um we have the ability to borrow money Um, we brought down an enormous debt service amount and I think we did a great job of bringing it down to zero.

Um, our agreement with finance committee several years back was to keep it bring it down and keep it under 25% of our revenue. I mean, I don't I'm not even sure if we'd ever want to go there, but we don't have to stay at zero. So when we hit a big project where cash flow is an issue, bonding is an option, okay?

And it wouldn't be a fiscally irresponsible option since we have no debt service. So we're in a very good position, okay, to kind of buffer a big request that might u create a cash flow. So So financially, I'm thinking we can afford the big picture.

Um because we've got a steady revenue stream, probably unusual amount of requests, and we have a ability to bond if we need to. So, sorry, I didn't mean to.

That's right. I just um dream about the CPC.

Uh no, I just wanted to make sure I remember everything. But so I I I understand your analogy with town meeting being the decision maker and we're the accountants behind the scenes. Where is our due diligence for and I'm not saying that this is our responsibility, but I have I have two things. One is um our due diligence on projects like sussing out projects where clearly there's no other money like they

they've applied for grants but the the organization or the group they clearly are not well resourced and therefore we might be like yes let's give them that full amount and we always talk about skin in the game and do you can't you put more skin skin in the game and then organizations that are strategically tapping CPC, but they do have the ability to have more skin in the game. Like I I don't see us like we

haven't really pressed though. And it's really hard to judge someone else's. I mean, we've pressed DCTV really hard and and they've come back and now understanding some of their financials, I'm like, "Oh, okay." But but like where is our due diligence lie there? And then we're from the time I've relatively been on the CPC for a short time, but it seems like we've gone with some pretty messy projects in the sense

that like we're sort of ready, but we're not quite ready. And and so they've gone on for years because and and I get projects hit big speed bumps, but is there a point where we push back and say, "You need to get your house in a little more order because we've got a lot going on right now." like I I don't know not having been on it long so sort

of like it is there push back for projects to be to have everything in order first or or do we I mean it does give a lot of flexibility for projects that are a little more difficult and hard. Um, so I I don't know. Those are just like two things that are like swimming around my brain, right? Those are important questions.

Yeah Joe.

I do have a question though. I mean, from what my understanding is, we're we're making recommendations. We we're recommending board to town meeting. So, somewhat like the finance committee makes the recommendations to we we actually uh our job is to put we we're the only ones who can put a CPA warrant on uh um out there. So we we put those on the on the town warrant.

Okay. We we put them Oh, so we decide we're deciding whether they go on the warrant.

Correct.

Okay. All right. I understand. Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So for me, big picture is, you know, I'm looking at this year and in my opinion, they're all worthy projects.

Um and I'd like to see them all go through, but big picture, I know it's not sustainable.

Um, and the one that gives me the biggest heartburn is the one I'm in most in favor of doing something about, and that's the AG request. Um, you know, they're at a request of 1.5 million.

That's a big ticket. Um, and for someone who's grown up in Dartmouth their whole life, someone who was raised on a small farm, man, I'm disgusted about what we've done to this town and and farming. I'm 69 years old and I can't believe the changes in my 69 years here. It's disgusting what we've lost uh for them.

So, it's dear to my heart what they're trying to do. I've got heartburn on the process and what I do for the town as a volunteer here in prioritizing taxpayers money.

That's what we do. We look at it, we prioritize it, we decide what goes forward, what doesn't going forward, what's the bigger priority.

AG is asking for substantial amount of money.

Yeah, those that's a little picture conversation.

No, but I'm I'm getting to the big picture. AG's asking for a substantial amount of money over the next four, four years. Well, they're going to be sitting on three.75 million at the end of this if they get if we approve their request. Um, and they're going to have a committee that's going to vet those uh, farms that may come up for sale.

That's what we do. We're the experts at vetting out projects and where the town should be. There there's there's a committee that already does.

So, that's a little picture thing and Susan can't be here for that. So, that's why I'm that's why I'm trying to we're not voting. So, Susan Susan and she can't be part of the discussion.

So um she's not part of the discussion.

I'm very familiar with the state ethics law. She can't sit in the room. Okay.

State ethics recommend she removes herself of the table, you know, but if you want to talk and she can be part of the discussion, but she's got to Anyway, talk about the A project. Well, let's just talk about it in all of those details. Get up to them. Should we just go?

Um I'm I'm just I'm proposing something a fixative. So, if you let me finish is my concern is that they're sitting on $3.75 million.

We get projects coming every year and we prioritize them. We've done a poor job, not us, but we've got nobody coming for historic preservation.

We haven't added a single housing unit for our elderly in my 69 years in the town of Dmouth. We haven't added a single unit for the elderly.

I don't want to be in a position three or four years down the road uh and somebody comes in with a fantastic project and you know me, I'm in love with people that come in with skin in the game. I love projects where they got matching funds of 50%. That's a no-brainer. You come in, you're getting 50% from DNR and we only got to donate.

That's a good return for the taxpayer.

You know, I love those projects. We give up this money and that $3.75 million is sitting there waiting for a farm. It could be two years, it could be five years, it could be 10 years before they expend that money. And we got this fantastic project that comes in that's looking for $4 million.

Jesus. Uh we can only afford two million. I'm h playing hypothetical.

Um and yet we've got 3.75 million of our money sitting over here that we can't touch. What I'm proposing, buddy is they didn't do a good They didn't present to me an argument for uh speed on they need to be able to act quick on purchasing a farm. In fact, John, you you haven't you you you're just talking about the project. I need to It's not the project. It's the big

picture on where we're going with the commission picture in terms of one project. And so that feels like a project conversation.

No, I'm talking about how we expend money in general. you just give me the put it in put it in and don't talk about the egg fund anymore but talk about what your big picture is I can't get my point across buddy without talking about keep trying a commission you know and we could do what I'm proposing to do buddy is we only fund them $750,000 it gives them a starting point it gives them

John got stop you you're now making a specific specific proposal. So all I want to say is let's take it up first because you can continue the big picture conversation in the So let's take it up. I'm making the pitch. All right. If you want to take that up first excuse it is I before I leave it's it's 9:23.

Yeah.

I have a day at the state house tomorrow. I have to get up super early.

I don't know if these conversations need to be we did reserve next week. I'm just going to say I think this is going to be a long conversation.

Okay. So, we will put ourselves on a time. That's a good point. We'll put ourselves on a time thing because we do have next week reserved.

Um, all right. Great.

So, on the act, if we fund $750,000 Yeah.

and I'm against making it a multi-year uh proposal, but we give them $750,000.

The other $750,000 we put we establish a policy on our own in our unrestricted funds that we put funds aside for purchases of farms uh in that unrestricted fund. So we got $750,000 in that under that we've earmarked just an earmarked. It's not binding. It's an earmark $750,000 to purchase a farm before we did. The following year we do the same thing. We earmark $750,000 for the ad commission.

I like that because we're in control. So if that big picture comes through where someone's coming in looking for $4 million and they need we need to find $2 million, we've got it. We can say, you know what?

If, you know, hypothetically, you know, we we look at open space or like I said, a housing, you know, some uh we finally get a private developer wants to come in and do some affordable housing um and looking for some small change from the town. Boy, wouldn't that be nice to fund that project and uh uh and if we didn't have the money, we'd have it in that earmark. We could borrow it from that

account and repay it. We don't have that luxury if we let them sit on $3.75 million.

Um, I want to hear from some other folks.

So, it's just something to consider that we earmark the funds and we stay in control of it uh at all times, but we set a policy. Let's not spend it unless we absolutely have to, and if we do, we replenish it.

We're going to talk about this one then.

We are We are now talking about the egg fun project. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, they're asking for the first year. They're not asking for that much money.

They're asking for 1.5 5 million the first year, but they're not asking for the 750 until it's three more years. So, we're not going to be sitting on 3.

No, but eventually they would be event, but we're not right now.

No, no, I understand that.

Okay. So, what you know, and they could buy a couple of farms, right? In the meantime. Oh, I get that.

they didn't have that money. They couldn't, right? I mean, you know, we talk about Christine and I are at odds at one thing, but we talk about wanting to keep the town the way it is. And one of the things that I think I'm, you know, well, let me give you an example, John. I live on Hosnik Road. Everybody here, the oldtimes remember the Isaac farm, correct?

Mhm.

Okay. He had almost a thousand acres between Hosene Neck Road, Bonnie's Joy, blah blah blah. Well, Mr. Isaac was a smart man because when he died, his kids wanted to put in about 44 houses on Hosene Neck Road. Mr. Isaac got a lawyer made the lawyer was a smart lawyer and he said, "Okay, I know my kids are going to do this, but he made it so that every lot had to be eight acres." So that's

what he did. Now, in the meantime, we have a lot of agricultural farms around there. We've got Jeff's, we've got um Andy Burns, who's a big farmer. We've got a lot of farms around there. When I first moved there, we had farms on Hosene Neck Road, Westport, Mr. Isaac's farm. I used to wake up in the morning, we had horses and steers. I think the agricultural needs to preserve land in this town. We

have almost a thousand units of housing with trying to come into this town right now. The 40Bs, if those thousand units come into this town, I don't it's going to change this town forever. This town is not going to be the nice little town that we're all sitting here now. Got to preserve the farms. That's all I'll say.

Other thoughts, Christine?

I couldn't agree more. That's all.

I agree.

I I think my comment and listening to John's thing, I think it I I I sort of agree, half agree, I guess, in some ways, but I feel like so I I think the problem I have is that it's the request is 3.75 over four years, right? So, I think that if we give them a chunk now and see how see what happens with that money essentially, see if it's put to to use,

see what kind of offers they get, whatever, see what kind of land they can find and do a test run and then like next year they can still come back and ask for more money. we'll still have it.

But I do like the idea of them being the one being the custodian of do, you know, of making the decisions as to, you know, what properties to buy and who what farmers they're going to, you know, RFP it to and everything else because that's their expertise and we really shouldn't get involved in having farmers come in here and, you know, ask us for money or what, you know what I mean? So, I just

think that but if we do it in smaller chunks over that four-year period, I think I just feel more comfortable knowing that we got about $700,000 going into the unrestricted every year and that we're putting a little over $100,000 into each category, if you will, each year. So, it's sort of backfilling, but if we take too much out at once, it's going to take a lot longer for it to backfill. And that raises the

concern that John has, which is what if we get a really good project that we'd like to fund, but we don't have the funds, and then that means we have to go down the path. It's nice to know that we have the option to to bond and to do debt service. But it's also nice to be in a position that we don't have to, you know, so, you know, I know it sounds

like we want our banana bread and eat it too, but um but at the same time, I mean, I think that's our role. I totally agree with you that the voters are the decision makers, but I think we are the fiduciaries that have to put the best proposal in front of them. Uh that protects the CPA funds long term. That's all.

Yeah. I think um a funded agricultural preservation fund is an important resource that the town doesn't have and it's different from any town meeting twice a year in which you have to have a process to essentially you have to have you know what is it this is um January so you have to have almost five months ahead before you even know whether what the answer is going to be. That's really really difficult. Yeah.

Um uh time frames to work um um in real estate. Um and in conservation areas, you know, you've got DNRT that can front money and there there are resources in town around conservation land that deal with can deal with that kind of a time frame.

Buzzards Bay Coalition. It doesn't exist in agriculture. And I think that's one of the things that's hard and my hope is that it also gives the farming community some predictability.

You know, if I'm a farmer and I'm like 58 and I'm thinking, I don't think I want to be farming working this hard for the next, you know, 12 years from now.

But I know there's a there's a pathway. It's just a little more predictable than I wonder what town meeting will think of wonder what they'll be like in 12 years. Um so so I think the value but I certainly understand people's concern about well how deep to get into this and maybe the thing to think about is maybe what we do is but you need something to work with.

So maybe it's honoring the, you know, supporting the first year request but not committing to multi-year.

Certainly they can come back and maybe that's the way of addressing, you know, John, you're concerned about, well, what if it all just kind of like sits in a dust bin and we could have done something with it. And part of that is let's set up the fund so that it can be start to be viable and we'll have time both to see, you know, maybe we have, you know, next year we

have a $10,000 request for funds and that's it. We'll feel like we can afford that because our reserves are all boosted up. Maybe, you know, so maybe that's the way to go is to is to look can approve the the 1.5 and then can I make a comment?

Yes, please.

Okay. I put on my broker hat now. Okay.

I'm a real estate broker now.

Yeah.

You want to buy a farm if you can find a farm for 1.7. Why don't we I like that you said, but why don't we say we're going to give them 1.7 and then we're going to give them 750 and then the other two other other million five they it's going to wait because they have a better chance of buying something for two and a half million or two million

and not coming back to us. That's my idea.

Okay. I don't know, you know, how everybody feels, but I certainly don't want to see a lot of these these farms, you know.

So, you just to understand then John um you were saying a two-year Yeah, we'd give them this what they're asking now and then we'd give them uh one year of 750.

All right, John.

Yeah, I just want to reate what I already said. My number one priority is again preserving Palms. I'm 100% yeah.

Yeah.

But as a community preservation committee member, we've got to look at all the priorities in town.

Um so we got this pile of money that the ad commission is going to have, which I'm in favor of giving them something, but if it's this pile of money that they can only control, it's not that I'm afraid, well, they're sitting in a dust bin over there. Um, it's we look at the priorities. They have one goal, preserving farms. A great goal. I'm all behind them 100%. But somebody walks in,

like I said, with some fantastic project where the town only has to put in 25 or 50% of the money to do this project, whether it's housing, whether it's land acquisitions, whatever it may be.

That's an good thing for the taxpayers who we represent. That's my point. that should get priority. If we got a project like that, that's an excellent project and we only have to spend half the money. We're getting $5 million and we only have to spend, you know, $2.5 million and we end up with a 7.5, you know, I'm just using hypotheticals.

Yeah.

Um, that's what I don't want to lose the ability to do. Not that I'm afraid they're going to sit on it.

Do anything that ability either. And I guess what what we're just thinking our risk is different. I I totally agree with you.

And like I said, if we set our own policy and we earmark it, it's there for them.

And I'm we've sat through 20 years of bringing down that debt service. I don't want to go there again, buddy. We we came on board and this see, you know, we were in serious debt because previous committees just spend spend spend and borrow borrow. We work hard to reduce that. I don't want to be in that position and I'm I'm on I'm on that page as well.

So that's always an option, but I don't want to be there. And that's why I think I'm in favor of maintaining control and ear marketing money for those people in the event something comes down that we just can't let slip by.

That's all. Jim, um it always begins. I used to be on a CC in another town. Um we had there was a housing trust and um just as as farms. They they would buy a house and fix it up and sell it. Um they uh and we basically had for a series of years an annual stipend to that trust um uh which was their principal source of funding. There was there was a a soft

commitment that it would be an annual stipend. And if some terrific deal of the kind that John would get excited about would came to us, we I'm sure could have suspended it without too many tears. Um, so I I would be comfortable with, you know, a good lump of a big enough lump of money into the the Aland trust to so that they can do a deal if one presents itself, but um not

getting us into a situation where if they don't if nothing comes up to them, um we're four years in and there's $4 million sitting in sitting there and we don't have it. Yeah.

Um to the question of just how finicky should we be in um in vetting projects, tweaking projects? Um uh because after all town meeting is the final uh deliberative body that is going to approve the appropriation.

Ain't nothing deliberative about town meeting. Town meeting is a race to the exit. The average duration of town meeting in my time in town meeting is 2 hours and 43 minutes. And that we'll do better this time.

And and so somebody likes keeping stats. Well, I made that up.

Um the um but town meeting a is is is hardly deliberative. And so right um a a town finance committee um really earns its keep or should earn its keep if they do a a workmanlike job of vetting and tuning what goes to town meeting. And so so I I won't apologize for so are so just so you would you're saying you could see doing supporting the initial uh outlay but not

necessarily a multi-year outlay. Uh, and is that what you're at or or that you you're comfortable with and give them some kind of soft assurance, soft indication that um we are with them, especially if they find a deal in the first year or two, you know, and so u and we certainly don't want to be in a situation where we've dumped a dumped a big load of money there and it's going nowhere.

And you Yeah. Yes.

Can I have a question? Because I don't understand if we could do this, okay?

Because I haven't been on that long on this committee. But if we gave them the money and then put the rest in year two, three or four, and they happen to find a a farmer that wants to sell and give it, you know, and sell it to them, can we give them the additional 750,000 without going to town meeting? Can they come in here by by themselves?

No, they go to town. So okay and and the other thing to understand about this is and I think this is one thing to it's a revolving loan. It's a revolving fund.

In other words, say if you the if we u capitalize the a fund and then they secured u a purchase of farm land using that money. the town's not the farmer. So then the next thing they, you know, as like a typical 61A kind of a thing, it goes out as they say, they put out an RFP and then someone buys the land um at the APR value. Well, the money they they give the town

goes not into the general fund, it goes back into that fund. So this outlay keeps coming back. So it's not like it's we we fund it, it goes out and then to come back and get more funds and it goes out and come back and get it does you get it you you you get it up to a little point and it kind of revolves.

Do you recall the last time the AG came before us looking for bonds?

What's that? Uh when was the last time the uh agriculture commission came before us?

It's been a long time years.

Yes.

U so I just want to point out one thing to the committee. So even the examples they set that were familiar with me and buddy the Copa cuta the sou gas they named a few farms those are they were able to purchase with a commission funds.

Well CPA CPA was in Copa.

That's my point. So, not only did you know they have a funds, but they still came to the town for CPC funds. So, timing was never an issue that we got to act fast on this because town we got to wait for town meeting. They still came for for what I'm in favor of giving them some money so people know that they are a real player in the game.

Yeah.

Then they're going to the table not with nothing. they're going to the table with something and oh by the way we can go to CPC but my point is when you know if we put all this money in there and it sit there it could sit there for the years they haven't come and asked us for a single farm that's come up where they'd like to buy in years

so if we do the Oh Jim you want to say something our question is they don't have anything right now on the table that they they're looking at there's no land that there's not a farm that they're looking at right Now all those circles I'm sorry all those circles there were all farms that they were anticipating are going to come up soon anticipating but nothing's for sale right now nothing so that so there is

some time you know there would be some time for them to be able to purchase and suppose um they don't have quite enough money to get one of those large red circles um right how long does it take to I mean I know we have a tradition of town meeting at two particular times of year but how long does it take to call a special town meeting Cody? That's a lot of money.

It varies but you would need at least two months probably to effectively get scheduled get prepared.

Yeah, but two months and and not the five that that Yeah, that's a good point.

And so I mean I don't I don't I don't know how much this has been done, but um I mean a s a one article special town meeting is is be tough is well it it there's a cost to a town meeting to a town meeting way Jim my point is we've never lost a farm due to timing.

Well I think the egg folks would probably say yes and they gave us a list of ones in their in their response about five or six and stuff. So, you know, we don't hear about that, but but they they the CPC has been here.

We've always been here.

They certainly could have come and requested money. It it didn't happen.

So, I think I have the the uh you know the Soua Legass, all these other farms were just weren't admission. There was ad commission, there was CPC, there was API, there was multitude and that all takes time. Uh, so no one's ever pointed the finger, we've lost a farm because of the bureaucracy we got to go through with the town.

Hasn't I don't think anybody's pointed that way, but I think people would say that, um, if you're trying to deal with real estate issues, um, timing is everything. Um, and so I think um it sounds like We have some bless you. It sounds like we have some sense of supporting a year one and we differ on forward commitments as commitments to take to town meeting. Um so one thought is we could fund the first request

they can come back at any in any of our routes an option really um which these questions of what do we have in the bank how much demand is there that context will always be there for their requests.

Um, does any someone want to make a motion for us to think to consider?

So, I will ask the question because I've put it out there before. Is 750 adequate to be a player at the table?

750 not what they're asking for a million.

No, the first year they I know that we don't have to award the 1.5. What? 750,000.

Yeah, I'm I'm putting that that in my opinion it is. I think anybody look at it. You know, the 1.5 isn't going to be enough to buy, you know, the $4 million.

What's his name?

No, but it might be enough to make a farmer wait six months.

Make a what a farmer wait six months to get the another.

I think in all cases it's worth it because they know that they've got partnerships such as uh Buzz's Bay Coalition, DNRT, and the town. Um, I think it's I'm just throwing that out there.

I'm going to answer. I think it's $750,000.

You can buy a house in Dartmouth for $750,000.

I don't think you're going to buy a farm.

I'm not saying we can buy a farm. It makes you a player in the game as much or a serious player and we will come back with additional funding. That's all I'm putting out there.

Christine, I I dis I disagree. I think that there needs to be more funding initially so that you could really make a move in a hurry if you need to. And I think urgency is what I feel when I look at those red circles and I hear what the a commission people said tonight. And I think that more money needs to be there at least in the first year. you know,

I'd like to fund it more than that, but um I don't think 750 is enough.

Well, I I mean, I guess I'll, you know, I'll just throw a motion out there. I'd make a motion that we fund the $1,500,000 first year request with, you know, with the fact that they know that they can come back in future rounds and we have what two or two two a year um to ask for more. it give them something to get started with and to prime the pump, so

to speak, and then kind of figure it out and see, you know, let them do some more due diligence and and then come back at a later time. But I think it also shows our support that this is something that we all are in agreement conceptually that it's a good idea. Um, so I would make the motion for $1.5 million.

Have a second.

One second.

any uh discussion on that?

If if here's the question. If they find a farm and farm is let's say 2 and a half million or 2.2 and they have the5, how long would it take them? Is is it going to be six months before we can give them the other?

Well, it depends on what other resources like, you know, so USDA private contributions. I mean there are there are kind of other resources, but if if they want money from us Oh, if they want money for us, they would just be on our regular funding schedule.

So, would it be six months?

Um, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's about six months. Okay.

Yep.

All right, we're ready to vote. So, all in favor of this motion, 1.5 million hand.

Any opposed? All right, that's unanimous. It was one of the best discussions.

Absolutely. John, thank you. Big picture was the place starting to make people think.

That was excellent. Excellent.

Um, do you need us to do that um warrant thing or you going to do that at the end?

Uh, yes. Actually, we should we should be really Let's redo it as we go here. I got so giddy about our discussion that uh I forgot this. Let's let's take this vote. Okay, we're going to take this.

Do you want Yeah. Why don't you go out there for a second?

I got I got giddy. We want to do this more more real here.

I'm not done.

Okay. All right.

Do you know how to fill in that piece?

Well, we're gonna Well, this is going to be amended now a little bit.

Um, so all right. So, wait, do I read the whole thing?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, we should probably um we should probably So, I gave you two examples there. That bottom one is is is a one-year example.

Oh, okay.

So is the one year.

So that would be the one we use then.

But let's let's let's talk let's this is our discussion part here. Um so 1.5 um I would suggest we want to take um maybe half of that. Let's see what do we have.

We have oh we could do the 1.5 out of runrestricted.

I think we do the whole thing under unrestricted.

Yeah, we can do it. Okay, that's what I'm going to check. Okay. I think so because we're going to if we do the others, we're going to have to take more out anyway.

That complicates.

All right. Very good.

So, okay. I make a motion.

Start with that.

Yeah. to see if the town will vote to appropriate $1,500,000 from unrestricted project reserve to the town of Dartmouth for agricultural preservation fund administered by the Dartmouth Agricultural Commission pursuant to Mass General Law A. Chapter 40, section 8 L, subsection H. All in accordance with the terms and conditions of the community preservation grant agreement and referenced in the community preservation

fiscal year 2027 budget or take any action relative there.

That is a beautiful motion. Okay. Uh and a second on that motion. All right, Jim.

Uh any discussion on that?

All right. All in favor?

I oppose. Okay. Great.

She can come back now. Um and then I'm gonna Let's Let's do a do a time check here. Okay.

Okay.

My watch is stopping.

All right.

8 of 10.

8 of 10.

Okay.

Um should we Do you want to Let's wrap it 10 and then we come back uh next Tuesday the 17th.

is what we have on our books.

We put that on our books. Yeah, but we we definitely have to have a quorum on the 17th.

Who's bringing the green beer?

Yeah, green brownies.

Give me an excuse to get I have another event, but that'll give me an excuse to get out of it. So, okay.

All right. Um, Margaret, I don't think he heard you.

Say it again.

I'd like to go home.

You like to go home?

And I could be I could be here for the 17th buddy.

I I can be. Okay, I can be.

So, I haven't I'd make a motion we adjourn.

Oh, I have something.

Oh, you got So, I noticed on the um voucher this should have been 150 and the total should have been 320. So, I can write that out initially instead of tomorrow.

Okay. And so, what's the total?

320.

320. We do need them. Let's let's get our motions correct here. Uh this is on the invoice.

Okay.

Um it should have been 320, not 340. So motion uh make a motion we resend the previous motion and um what's the new numbers we approve 320 320 320 second any discussion all in favor I back to the original make a motion to adjourn second second Christina all in favor thank you so much thank