Community Preservation Committee Meeting September 8, 2026

But we do have a quorum and it is 6:30 so we should get started. Okay.

And um Michelle's not here. What she's going to do is um take the minutes off of the DCTV recording.

Um and with these microphones on I assume that that is happening. So, uh, what we'll I'll just make sure that what I'll probably do is if we take any votes, I'll just make sure it's clear who's uh made the motion and who seconded it because sometimes um that may or may not be picked up.

Hey, how's it going?

Well, hello there.

Hi,

Okay.

So um do a couple of housekeeping things. Um let's see

shell here.

Okay. So, we do not have the minutes from our last meeting. Michelle's been on vacation. So, we will uh at October, we'll deal with both sets of minutes.

How's that? Uh and I do not have any invoices. I think the one um piece of correspondence um is just I did the I completed the database entries for our projects that have gone forward with town meeting in at the October and June. So every year you have to in September you kind of load up this database um that the do department of revenue has and um so I've got all that squared away. Couple of

questions I had about um entering some information on projects. I got the stuff in there but I'm going to call the coalition and get some help on a couple of things. Um it's very old um kind of archaic database that was set up many years ago. So um one of the odd things is when you um when projects have restrictions you enter to close out a project you have to enter in the where the restriction was

filed and book and page number and all those sorts of things and stuff.

um and which um registry of deeds, but the the drop- down list doesn't have New Bedford. So, it has Bristol North and Bristol Fall River, but doesn't have the Bristol County, New Bedford Registry of Deeds. So, I just keep putting things in in Fall River. And I've got to talk to the coalition and said, I don't know if there's anybody who does anything to this database because it hasn't been

changed in probably 20 some odd years.

Um, but if they are, if they would add that to the drop- down list, that'd be really It's a drop-own list, so you can't type it in.

So, but anyway, we're all caught up. Um, we're all caught up with that.

So, we have our public hearing scheduled at 6:45. I probably shouldn't jump the gun on that. That's um probably correct. So, we can jump on our agenda, do a couple of things, and come back.

So, at the advertised time at 6:45, we'll go we'll go into that. Um, let's see. Dog park fees. That's going to take some conversation, so we won't do that one. Um, and we do Let's see. Um, Don, I don't know if you've had a chance to look at the application.

I did not. I apologize.

month.

I don't know if that's something you want to the two of us get together on a Yeah, I think maybe October.

Um I'm going to be away for a little bit, but I'll reach out and if there's something around mid Octoberish that I think that would probably be the good thing to do, the best way to do it.

We say, "Yeah, I'm away from the 9th to the 17th."

Okay. So, let's do it. We'll do it. I'll make a note too.

At the beginning or the end of October after the 17th. Yeah.

Sounds like our voice is being projected or or I've just entered some time zone, time warp, and it this is all now a movie.

Um, okay. Um, the, uh, acknowledgement. So, I'm doing the project updates. Um, the acknowledgement sign for the cultural center, they were able to, um, change the wording. It hadn't gone to print, if you will. So, it didn't I told them, don't make a change if it's going to cost you money, but um, it wasn't a problem. So the the new language saying that the um project was um uh being going forward with CPA funds

approved by the from the town of Dartmouth um rather than the CPC committee which is more accurate. It's the town. So that sign is up. If you're driving by, take a look at it. It's quite a nice and big sign. Um the Davis Cemetery. I confirmed with Becky that um the project is complete. We've approved accepted the closeout report and I just double checked with her and confirmed that there is an unexpended balance of

$16,500.

So I think what we'd like to do is um make a motion to recapture those funds and return them to the historic preservation reserve.

So if I can have a motion to that effect.

So moved.

All right. Susan made the motion and a second.

Second and a Jim Conlin.

Uh the second. Okay. Um so this is um basically she confirmed that the project's done. No further expenses. And so um it'll go back to the reserve for the that was the original purpose of the of the grant. So all in favor?

I I opposed.

Okay, that's unanimous. I'm glad you read it correctly cuz when I first read these, I wasn't reading it correctly.

I thought it was unexpected balance and I'm Oh, yeah.

I couldn't I just ran through the agenda real quickly. I'm like, "Oh, this is going to be interesting."

Yeah.

And it's positive.

Um, I've sent out um a reminder to folks um who have active projects that um if they haven't already sent uh project status report in this quarter, they should get it to us before the end of uh the month. And so actually um we'll have more project um status reports to um review in um October.

Um okay and then the umus um with Michelle out I don't know the status of them they've gone out to all the sponsors to uh and what the sponsors have to do is take a look at the template um look at the conditions that we are going to have for bless for the release of funds and then um put uh fill in the uh attachment for their best uh projection on uh the schedule for dispersements.

Um so I haven't gotten any of those yet.

Um but I think they're probably most likely u with at Michelle's desk. And so when she gets back, I think she gets back next week, um I'll catch up with her and if everything is in order and people are fine with what um what we sent them, then uh we'll start executing theus.

The one that's being worked on in draft form is the one for the agricultural fund. Um it's a it's different. It's a different kind of project than our um other projectus or grant agreements because it's um giving funds to the agriculture commission to commit within the uh guidelines of the CPA.

Um and then if funds say in a 61A if the funds are used to acquire um agricultural land and then that got then sold to a farmer the proceeds come back to the fund. So there's a few things that need to be kind of um kind of drafted into the terms. So I'm working with the coalition on how to do that. I kind of use their housing trust template, but that's really different

because uh in some sections and so we're working through that and Stuart um Sagnor has been really helpful and kind of giving me feedback on language that's going to be more clear. So, um, that's that'll get wrapped up probably in the next couple weeks and I'll get that over to the A commission um to look at and, um, we'll get that get that wrapped up.

Um but it may be something that the coalition will actually end up using as a template um should other communities start to um use funds for agricultural um for ag CPA for agricultural funds.

Okay, we are almost at our um advertised time.

Um maybe one thing I can uh see I have here.

I might be able to squeeze this in.

we um we have to kind of think through or start our process for our annual feedback for our annual needs assessment and plan. And so the basic idea I have a note here is um what I'd like to do is in October so actually after this meeting send out um a notice to our um people who we've done a lot of work with as well as the planning board, select board, finance committee, those folks um

that we would uh invite them to provide feedback on our uh annual plan. So what we do is we kind of give them you know here's what our plan is this year and what are some of the suggestions for priorities and ways anything that should be tweaked we should consider for next year and anticipation of um public hearing in dece uh November.

Um, and then, um, in October, I think it might be helpful to use, uh, see if Jessica at town hall would help us with doing one of her email blasts that we're having, you know, a public hearing on our annual plan in November.

Um, and then, um, invite, uh, tell people where they can find our plan on our web page to look at. and um how to send us comments kind of thing. So, I think we have talked about trying to use her as a resource, how to really get out to the community more um than all the other avenues that we have um available right now. Um so, folks are fine with that approach. you know, I'll send out

the our standard kind of invite to the December meeting, but I think getting it out now, I mean, November because getting out now, lots of like say the historic commission, they meet maybe once a month and so you have to kind of get it to them. So, they actually have time to deal with it in October in order to bring it forward to us by November.

So, I think that'll work.

Any questions about that?

Okay, we are just rocking through the meeting.

Okay, this is where it so starts to slow down. Okay, so don't get too excited. Uh so it's time for us to go into our public hearing session. We have one proposal before committee for consideration for the October town meeting which is the Pasca mascet uh valley um conservation proposal.

And if I could have a motion to enter into a public hearing.

So moved.

That was Mike.

Second

and Susan second. Thank you.

Okay. All in favor?

I.

Any opposed? Thank you. Appreciate that.

Okay. So, I'm just going to go over a little bit how we do the public hearing part on a project proposal. We asked the sponsor to um make a short presentation on the proposal. Uh we've had a chance to review it. We've sent a bunch of questions um to the sponsor and have received uh response to all those questions. Um so they may come up again or they might be just addressed in the in the short

presentation.

Um and then I'm going to open it up to anybody here for any questions or comments um in favor against or questions you might have for the sponsor. And then I'm going after that I'm going to turn to the committee. Um and we can ask questions and have conversation about the the proposal. Um when we're done, we'll close the public hearing and then we will continue on in our regular business. Okay. Which will

include um consideration of uh recommendation for the town meeting.

Okay. Great. Um who? Yes, Mr. Ras Ras.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Just follow the brief presentation.

Thank you.

Use the podium so that the microphone picks up every single word you say.

Every single word. Okay. Um good evening. Hi everybody. Mark Rasmmanson, president of Buzzards Bay Coalition.

Thank you for having us here tonight to present this project. I am here not just for myself but in partnership with the town. There are many members of the board of selectman here, Cody as well.

So I want to share my time with the town because this is very much a partnership proposal. Um and I think it's one of the most exciting ones I've ever been here talking about because it combines promoting responsible housing in town controlling responsibly controlling growth and doing great conservation all in one project. Um and that's rare to be able to do all that in one site. And so

I I see that here. So, I thought what I would do just to quickly summarize the project is go through these slides um and just remind everybody we're talking about what I always think of as Hawthorne Country Club. So, this is the 56 acre Hawthorne site. The map shows the location of the parcel today and the proposed division between the front half for development. We'll talk a little bit

I'll just make a note here. We submitted the application with a com uh approximately 29 acres on the conservation parcel and approximately 25 on the development. Those numbers are still going back around the approximate.

Um, I expect by the time the survey work is done, it's closer to 27 acres of conservation, but it's not going to be significantly different.

If you turn the page, um, I just wanted to outline four reasons why I think it's really important to protect this property. Um, and the first one is just where I started. This is without conservation, without the support of CPC and town meeting. This pro property is uh on track to be 147 unit 40B development approved um back its comprehensive permit approved back in May. The image here on the right shows

what this site will look like if the conservation alternative doesn't go forward. Um instead, what we're looking to accomplish is about 65 55 and over age restricted units on the front 25 27 acres. um and the remainder going to conservation. But this is the current approved 40B plan. Um and I I give credit to the select board and to Cody in particularly for really driving a really great resolution. We're here

supporting the conservation outcome. The big big lift for this, you know, putting this deal together was on coming up with the development partner and that's that's what this plan represents. Um, like I said, it's it's really wonderful to be able to look at a site comprehensively and decide what's appropriate for development, what's less what's what's not, and design the uh conservation around that.

You turn the page.

Um, even on its own, if we had no development proposals on deck at all, you'd still want to conserve this property. Um, it is immediately adjacent. The first one for us, the reason why we were excited to be a partner is it protects the Pascamit River, main feeder river for for Dartmouth into the Summ River estuary into Buzzard's Bay. The Pascamit's critically important and has been the

source of a lot of conservation. You'll see on one of the future maps over the years. This piece is a key part of that puzzle and it's not just for the river.

It's very importantly for the town's public drinking water supply. If you look at the map here, this blue shaded area um immediately adjacent to Hawthorne is the zone 2 or the area of the most direct contribution.

Groundwater goes into the ground, it goes into the public wells. You can see the wells are just across the river.

They're shown as stars on this map, very close to Hawthorne, just on the other side of the Passam River. This mapping I I note here, it is adjacent to zone 2. I think I have every expectation if the geology was done on this project, it would be within zone two because what it looks like to me is and the state often does this when they map these areas where they had an existing development

area like a golf course, they stopped doing the survey and they ran the line straight down the property line. That's what this map looks like to me. So I don't I don't see it as adjacent to zone 2. I I view it as likely zone two.

The third reason, the next page is that same area corridor along the Pascamsa.

It is also really important for wildlife. So the purple and blue crosshatch, they're harder to see through the colors here. Um are both mapped by the state rare and endangered species program as core habitat and critical natural landscape. That indicates areas that support rare species and wildlife habitat. Um, and again, were this not a golf course, I would expect that habitat to migrate

right on uh to the Hawthorne property.

It's immediately on the line adjacent to it. So, very important for wildlife as well.

And then the last map um really tells a bigger picture. Here's a broader view of Dartmouth, you know, looking north to Route 6 and south down to Russell Mills Road. This is an impressive corridor of conservation that's being created along the Pascamit.

And when you can create corridors, this isn't just great for wildlife movement.

This is great for continuity of of the water resource, but also the opportunity to think about somewhere down the road, somebody is in front of this committee and working on a trail that runs the Pascam River Valley. You can't start thinking about interconnection recreational opportunities until you have the whole puzzle together. This piece helps put the puzzle together. Um, and look at the impressive array of

there's DNRT lands in this map. There's BBC lands, a lot of water department and town concom. The entire western border of the Hawthorne site is already owned by the Kongcom. So, it's expanding upon that area of conservation.

So, those are the four reasons I think really compelling reasons why this property should be conserved. On the back page, I just wanted to hit a couple of the details that are in the application, but also in our response to questions. Um, we are talking about a $2 million purchase of the back 27 to 29 acres. The conservation purchase is 2 million. The purchase for the whole property is significantly more. We're

just talking about that back parcel. Um, we are proposing to split that cost. The application is for the town CBC to do a million dollars of that that uh two million and that we Buzzards Bay Coalition will raise the other million dollars through private donations. So, one onetoone match uh for the deal. Um, we've already been to see the Dartmouth Conservation Commission. As you saw in

my response to comments, they've agreed to hold the conservation restriction.

So, they are a key partner in this as well. And then on ongoing land management, um, our plan for this site would be to let it to be reforested. Um, it is a pretty steep slope. It's best for the river if that slope is forested.

Um, but it won't be inaccessible for us because part of the discussions with the developer is that we would make deliberate trail connections from the new development into this area and develop a trail network that eventually we can connect up river like I was talking about. But right now will actually at least access this property.

Um, we will do that. I should mention Buzzards Bay Coalition is assuming the responsibilities for land management long term. So the same um structure that we've talked about in the past where BBC owns the land. So, it's responsible for keeping the trail clear, picking up the trash. The town is enforcing BBC's commitment to open space by being the CR holder and not picking up the long-term management responsibilities.

Um, and I think those were the key properties I wanted to mention. That's that's the case for conservation, I guess. And I don't know if this is a good time for the town now to talk about the other aspects of the project or maybe just in Q&A. I don't Yeah, I think that the town could say a word if part of this part of the presentation be great.

Mark Cody had a town administrator. So, uh Mark did an excellent job of giving an overview of the project and and why we're here. I think it's important to note this is something the select board considered well over a year ago because they identified this as a key parcel for conservation. At the time we were talking about, you know, needing $7 million or more to acquire the whole

parcel and it just wasn't something that the town was able to do. Even with conversations with Buzzards Bay Coalition, that's a it's a lot more money that we were talking about, but it's been on the Select Board's radar for, like I said, well over a year. Um, it's it's critically important being right near our zone 2 aquifer. We talk about water water conservation efforts uh consistently. Water is a major topic

in town and uh we need to do everything that we can to preserve our drinking uh water wells. And then you know from a more practical point of view obviously you know the environmental impact of 138 unit 40B or any housing development is significant. Um the topography of the land is is rather interesting. Overall the town as I think you saw if you followed the 40B process there wasn't a

lot of support for that project as a whole. So the converse being um you know approximately 65 age restricted units.

It helps to go along with the planning board's uh request which is they're looking at more senior housing and so there's been a big push for that. You see that some of that along Dartmouth Street with some of those developments but that's something the planning board had identified and this kind of goes with that as well. there's been talks about um you know what is the impact going to be on our our school district

for some of these large projects going a little bit beyond where CPC is here but just trying to give you the whole picture of of the project and um obviously with an age restricted there's much less of an impact on our on our educational system and so overall we think it's a great project the board has discussed this the select board has discussed it in great length um with significant support unanimously as Mr.

Rasmusson also stated conservation commission uh voted unanimously last week to hold the CR. Obviously they would need to review you know the final CR but essentially they agree uh barring no nothing in there that would uh they would have concern with and so we would um on behalf of the select board ask that the the commission uh bring this forward and let town meeting decide on uh acquiring this property through

Buzzard's Bay. And I think that's an important point too is, you know, we the town owns a lot of land, a lot of conservation land through the conservation commission, through DPW, and it's great. We don't have the bandwidth to to care for all of this land. If you really want to adequately do it and take care of conservation land, have trails and and get utilization out of it, you need staffing

to do that um in in the right context.

Buzzards Bay has that. So, it's a great partnership where we're able to do this.

We hold the conservation restriction and we can work with a proven partner to make sure that all these things are done and not just preserve the land but have access to it right through these walking trails and some great um future opportunities for expansion not just way beyond this property.

Great. Thank you. So I think we can probably open up to questions at this point.

Yeah. Um so from folks who are here are there question someone would like questions or we'd like to speak on behalf or against this project.

We spent a lot of time and money on illegal ad and to invite public comment would you know I shudder to think of what the cost per comment shared would end up with if no one spoke. So um I encourage someone to speak give us comments.

Okay. I'm not I would be very unfair to call upon someone. I know that. So I'm not I'm not going to do that. But um okay, let me turn this over to committee for some questions. And I think everybody's received um the the written response.

Uh I have a question I guess to kick off. Um so on the bullet that talks about public trails being developed with access from the adjacent new community.

Uh and again I apologize if this has already been discussed and I missed it but has there been any conversation is is the development team that's going to develop that front portion are they going to be providing parking or an area for that u you know or or is that something that coalition is going to be responsible for?

What's that u situation?

Um absolutely. So, um, the development of the access point, sort of the roadway, sort of the dead end with the trail head sign and a couple parking spaces is part of the developer commitment to the project. Great.

When when it's the edge of the pavement though, it's us from there on, right?

Okay. Go up the trail.

Excellent.

John, so thank you for responding to all our questions we had uh put together. My one question in uh relationship to Mike is the these trails um which I think are going to be wonderful the construction and maintenance you u you folks time frame on that from uh when the development is uh completed what's your time frame y to open that up so usually the the x the x factor here

is the um how long it takes the development to get going, right? So, we have to let them finish and create that.

I don't know if that's 18 months or two years, I'm guessing, right? A typical development of this scale. Usually then I would normally answer the question and say we go in usually in the first year, get to know the land, lay out a trail, you want to avoid wetlands, and we figure out what's where are the trees that you want to feature and the walls you want to cross and it usually takes a

little while. So, on a normal project, I would say within a year, we'd be building those trails and they'd be open the year after. So, say two years. But with the development happening, maybe that's four. No, I'm just more so when the development is completed, what time?

So, you're saying two years. Um, and then do we know I don't know if you would have the answer to this or someone from the town would have the answer. Is development going to be the road network going to be private or public?

That's still part of the conversation.

Um, because that's for me public access is important. And if the road network is going to be private, then that's an issue for you folks. The trail network would only be available to the people who live in the development. Uh if that's the only trailer, that's not the intent.

I I'm sure it isn't, but I'm This is my concern. If if the development ends up being um held in private, is there any consideration to trail heads outside um that Hawthon development?

You could it will outlet to Fairway to the to the south. Um but I'm not sure the Isn't Fairway also private?

So yeah, that's private, too. Mhm. So I my goal is to acquire the public access through this site and that's been the conversations with the developer to date. The status of the road to get to our trail head and our parking spots which I have talked about. I've not got into the status of the road between there but it's the full intent that this be open to the full public and access through the Hawthorne site.

Um I don't have any questions just comments. I think um good news. I think it's a great this is a type of project that on its own without uh the 40B development and everything associated that this is for me personally a kind of project that I love seeing come before us when we have I'm looking at voting on spending taxpayer money um if I can acquire a piece of property or if we can acquire a

piece of property uh and someone's going in with partners and sharing ing dollar for dollar.

I'd be doing that deal every day if we had the money. Uh I love these deals.

You know, I I don't particularly care for when we got people coming in and say, "We don't have any money. We need all your money to do our project." It's great to have these kind of partnerships. You folks always step up to the plate. I really appreciate it.

Again, if this was standalone, I'd be voting for this. But you know what? I kudos to everybody in the town who is working to make this deal happen because it's just frosting on the cake when we can look at eliminating the impact of that 40B development and get something half the density, you know, 90% of the impact to our school systems gone, traffic, um just a win-win uh deal. So kudos to everybody that's

been involved in this and I hope it's u successful.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the one of the questions just popped in my head. So looking at this one of the slides here, it says that 40B for 147 units was approved in May of 2026. So just past May. So, if this goes to town meeting and it gets approved at town meeting, I'm assuming this would have to they would have to go back to local boards to get their permit amended for this other

project and they're fully aware of that.

Correct.

Yeah, we've had conversations with the developer. Uh they would need to go before the zone board of appeals for a separate permit. Yeah. This would not be it would no longer be a 40 project, right?

But I guess what I'm trying to say is they've already got something approved.

Are they going to appeal that the state?

Um, no. The state would the state wouldn't get involved.

They wouldn't they they just won't build it.

won't build it. Yeah.

The 40B permit will die, right? And we would we we've been in discussions with the current owner to make sure there are charities in place such as agreements uh development agreements. So So there's um so Tommy I just didn't know what recourse they had. You know what I mean? That's all.

No, this they're part of their discussion. something that they they essentially are sell would be selling the property to another developer in Buzzard's Bay Coalition and that other developer would develop the the other parcel there um with the 65 or so age restricted units and then Buzzard's Bay would purchase the property without holding a conservation restriction.

Okay, great. Thanks.

Yeah, Susan.

So, a lot of moving parts, difficult deal. I totally appreciate that. But if um if this goes to town meeting and town meeting approves it, are there any other are there is there anything sticking out that could go wrong that would sink this deal? Um or is this I I guess I know there are a lot of moving parts, but I'm in particular like where do you see the appraisal coming out? Mhm.

Um and so just especially about this project, are is there anything that um you're really kind of still unsure about or is this moving along really good?

Yep. I'm not um you the appraisal is due in two weeks and I haven't seen any previews or anything, but I my gut is not to be concerned about the appraisal for for half the site considering it's a permitted 147 unit development. Um I think the appraisal is going to be just fine. So, I'm not worried about that. I guess if there's a a moment of jeopardy, it's the um the developer is going to

need to permit the 65 and older development through town boards. That won't be done before town meeting. Um they're not going to sell us the back unless they know they have a project up front. Um so, I think that's we don't end up buying if they don't get their permit for the 65 and over. So, um, but I I don't see the I shouldn't I should knock over what I should You never know

when you enter a permit process, but this seems like a pretty great outcome.

I think I'm hoping town boards will be favorable towards it.

And there really isn't an issue with the current owner. They're they're willing to sell to the other developer and you every indication is this is that yes, we're they're Yes. very close to a final deal.

This isn't a new concept either, right?

But this the Buzzers Bay Coalition submitted this application initially for the June last town meeting and then there was a request to hold that and hence why we're here today. But so these discussions are certainly not preliminary or or at a high level. We've had several meetings, several discussions, so we feel pretty good at this point about where this is.

Yep.

And it's nice to have a deadline, right?

Your decision in town meeting helps put everybody's feet to the fire to get the deal done. So, we're working that, too.

Okay.

Other questions?

They've been um Yeah, there are a lot of moving parts and and I I I agree with the sentiment that um this is a very positive um project that you're putting forward um for the town for a lot of reasons that you've laid out. Um so, I'm just thinking on some of the logistics here. Um, one thing, occur. So, there's a I was thinking about this. There's a couple of things I and I appreciate your answers.

I think they were very clear to our questions. Um, and I did not have any concerns about um the response that you gave to our questions. Um, but it did make me think of two. So there I think there are some um some things that are I wonder if she'll be contingent upon the warrant um that ultimately is would go would be in front of town meeting. One is the the the appraisal.

Yep. Uh so we would definitely need to have the appraisal um complete and submitted to us because what we do is we make sure that the CPA funds requested don't exceed the value of of the restriction which the appraisal will delineate. Um, and I think one of the things we would need to look at, and you probably have already had this discussion with the the appraiser, um, is, you know, the the development, the

value of the development is on this 22 or 27 acre piece, not the other part. So, the obviously the other part is still going to be developed. So, just so it's really clear when they do their report that they're very clear about how they drew the line through this approved plan and that that line lines up with the conservation area. And so those units are the ones that won't, you know, you got it.

Okay, that would be really helpful because that's the kind of thing we need to parse out just to make sure that that's very very clear. Um, and then um I would and I'm I'm wondering also if um it would be important to have the PNS signed um by town meeting. I'm just trying to think of those are two things like we'd want to make sure the value is correct for what we're asking town

meeting to approve and I think we'd want to make sure that all the parties agree are in line to go forward with the other things obviously having to to work work out and stuff. Um, otherwise I think I'm not sure if we'd want to I I wouldn't be concerned about going forward with an or an article that um might not have those pretty foundational things for the town meeting to um to vote on the

recommendation. And then I think then most likely there would be the other pieces that release of funds obviously would then be all those other pieces that make the project come together. the subdivision happens. Um there's worked out for public access. It's clear that there's public access for the trails or access to the to the property, the conservation property. Um and things like that.

Yep.

Um I have I think those are those contingencies would be fine. I don't want to be before a town meeting without a PNS and an appraisal either, right? So um I agree. Yes, we'll do that.

Other questions or comments?

Great. Well, I appreciate I appreciate this very clear and brief presentation.

Um, and obviously all the work behind the scenes to try to these guys see this see how to make this go forward. So, I definitely appreciate that.

Thank you.

Great. If I have a motion to Oh, well, this is we could still have public comment.

Okay. All right. Very good. Um, so, uh, if I could have a motion to close the public hearing.

So moved.

Okay. That's Susan and a second.

Second.

All right, Joe. All in favor? I I thank you. Thank you very much. You

Okay. Um shall we move into a discussion of the this proposal? Uh what we need to do is consider um uh whether we recommend a warrant for October town meeting. Um and so let's kind of open that up for comment and discussion at this stage.

Yes.

Just on um your comments and recommendations on um definitions for town meeting.

Yeah.

Uh personally, I'm a little in from my view reluctant to put more hurdles in front of this project. I know the town has worked very hard, jumped through hoops, over hurdles, and I think that there's still a few to go. Um, and I would hate to jeopardize the project. My gut feeling is if we recommended town meeting to spend a million dollars, Tom meeting spends a million, they don't get the million dollars right away.

uh you know we still have anou to draft up in theou we can put all those conditions that you're talking about in theou uh because I would hate to see this delayed for another 6 months if the appraisal came back incorrectly or didn't come in on time or the PNS gets hung up with attorneys and can't meet the town meeting deadline I think it jeopardizes the project go up. There's no

um threat to the town. If town meeting, if we approve this and town meeting approves the million dollars, the million dollar doesn't go anywhere until an MOU um is agreed upon and uh you know the transaction is uh finalized. So, I think those are some uh conditions we can do, necessary conditions. I agree with them, but uh to make them a a condition for this time meeting um you

know, I'm not in favor for. I don't I don't see the need for it.

Yeah. I I it probably premature to have this, you know, make a decision about that. I guess where I'm coming from is um I feel strongly about the integrity that of standing up in front of town meeting and making bringing forward recommendations for commitments of funds and stuff. So I think we're doing the town meeting's due diligence. And so I think there's a we ought to hold a high bar for

ourselves on on that so that we go forward to town meeting and say we think this is you know something we're recommending you know committing CPA funds to you know that it's clear that which I consider these things foundational that yes this this is a million dollars is what's needed and yes these parties this is a real project. So that's why I think the PS if if the parties can't agree to a PNS, this

actually is a phantom project. It's an idea, but it isn't real. So I think the the PNS is important because that means it's real. The parties have all signed on to it. Um and anyway, but I think this is premature. I think, you know, in October we'll I think there's every effort to do this and I wouldn't want it to be an impediment to the project, but that's where I'm coming from. A little

concerned about what we, you know, when we put things forward to town meeting and stuff. Um, but I think we'll see how it comes together. We certain I certainly agree with you. We don't want to throw any unnecessary roadblocks and we do have I think this project is too important to Yeah.

logistical question. If the appraisal comes back much higher than anticipated, can it can we adjust if it's still going to be a 50/50 split? Can the ask be adjusted if it happens before the warrant goes to town meeting? Can that be adjusted or does that if we have time to meet?

So only uh town meeting um by the CPA town meeting can does not have the authority to uh increase a commitment of CPA funds. They do have the authority to decrease. So if you go in for say you know $100 for something tell me you can say we we approve 75 you know so an amendment from the floor. Um but they can't say we want to give 110. Um so um

if if the CPA if the CPA fund commitment is to be increased above the million we would be able to do it in um October you know having official public meeting and we we do have one scheduled for be I think October 14th.

I think we'd have to do that at a public hearing though and we've closed a public hearing. um you know, we're not giving the public it. Let's say it comes at $1.2 million.

We didn't get comments from the um the public on it. Um so I I think to Sus's question, uh yeah, I think once we close the public hearing, we're locked into a million dollar, but certainly if it was $200,000 off, you come up with the $200,000 that's no towns. We were asked for a million. We're still recommending a million. I think once we closed the public hearing, I think uh we'd have to go through the

advertising again to open up before.

Yeah. Our practice is has been to always have public hearings on the project proposals.

True. True.

Other thoughts? So I um back to the comment about I I agree with you buddy about like the integrity and having some you know due diligence and all that. I just I'm trying to think it through. So in terms of a like a a vote tonight for us to make a recommendation. How does that get baked into a recommendation to put something on a warrant? Is it like we're recommending put this on the

warrant subject to these two things or is it more like we're recommending put this on the warrant as part of the warrant language. It would incorporate having those things done prior to to your point, John, spending the money and getting the money out there. So, you know, can we I guess the timing of how we could get those conditions get baked in is what I'm a little fuzzy on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Y, did you have that?

I from what I read from the questions, you're anticipating that the these things are going to be done by October, correct? the PNS and the we're anticipating that. Yes.

So, yes. I wonder do we have time to meet prior that that if they to you know our October meeting is uh October 14th so it' be the week before that would that provide sufficient time to Yeah. Oh, to to Mike's question, I wonder um if it is, you know, if we were to vote um you a commitment of a million dollars from X um um resources um subject to

um receipt of pre of the appraisal and the PNS sign.

I would send, you know, one thing we would send the warrant language, the warrant, it wouldn't that wouldn't be in the warrant language. The warrant language would be here's the commitment subject to um we would send the warrant language up to the town and they would put it under warrant and let's say worst case scenario um you know it's the the um appraisal only came in at $25 um and um you know we would

either meet and withdraw or reduce it to 25 bucks or something like that in our October meeting or um we vote on this warrant article um without the subject to language um but we've had this conversation and when we meet in October um if those things haven't come gotten done um it'll be back on our table for conversation to whether withdraw the article.

So, it doesn't necessarily have to, you know, we could just have, well, okay, everything's fine. We'll just treat the article as all this will come together.

Um, yeah.

When do they close for the warrant?

Like, what's the drop deadline date to get, you know, I mean, to get information in together?

Yesterday is probably when they wanted the language. So, so we could send them the language tonight.

Yeah. uh if you know withdrawing is easy.

Yeah, we have the language drawn up. I mean it's pretty standard CPA language.

Um but we need the board the select board to review the warrant on the 14th.

They're completely finalizing the warrant on the 28th. The finance committee also needs to make their recommendations. So the last possible date for them is the Thursday before. Um so really within the next week or two, but but to Buddy's point, this isn't um a unique process. If if for some reason something changes um it doesn't meet you know what that you're looking for you can you could meet you could make a

motion to withdraw uh you could also bring it to town meeting floor and make a motion to indefinitely postpone or withdraw and and give the explanation of hey you know we we were looking for X and Y this didn't happen or if the CPC wanted you could still move forward with it if it hasn't met those conditions and make it part of your agreement right with Buzzards Bay Coalition in the

And um and like like Mr. Soua mentioned, you still you get town meetings authorization, but you don't release the funds. Yeah.

Until those conditions have been met.

But in in our conversations with Mr.

Rasmuson, I I fully intend that we will have both of those conditions met within the next several weeks.

Yeah. Pri prior to town meeting, much before town meeting. Yeah.

So, personally, I don't feel like I would um offer those as formal conditions for us to vote on. I'm just expressing where my where I'm coming from. And in October, if things haven't come together, then I would be really looking for us to look to have that conversation.

Most likely not necessary at all. Um, but I just wanted to be transparent so it wouldn't be a surprise like, geez, I didn't know the the PNS was that important, you know? um that that but yeah, that that would be my concern, but I wouldn't offer it up as a formal uh uh vote. So, I think we could just do uh if we're um do the vote on the recommendation for the town warrant and

then I'll send that up later tonight to uh uh Cody and uh and Anthony Sabastano to uh to review.

Okay. What we do have to be clear about is um and I can use our standard template but the key things is we want to know um how much money and from what source.

Um and so um we will be looking at

I had that with me. Yep.

Okay. So, this would we be making commitments I believe from our unrestricted and

Yeah, I believe that's where we're making it from.

That's correct. I did not have that piece of paper with me that I wanted to have.

Yep. Yep. This is the one I want.

Yeah. So we have um projecting uh we have a balance with our current June commitments.

We have a balance of about 1.9 million in unrestricted um and open space is just 19,000.

Um, so I would say that what we're really looking for would be um looking to take that from the unrestricted.

So, the $1 million from the unrestricted fund um for the Pasca Manset Valley project and now put it into our template which has the other standard language involved in accordance with the our budget and our uhou.

So, any further discussion on this before we kind of make a motion on this?

All right. Do I have a motion to for a million dollars for the Pascans Valley project to come from a unrestricted reserve?

So moved.

And a second.

Okay.

Um, any further discussion?

All in favor?

I.

Any opposed? Unanimous. Very good. I'll draw that up and send it out this evening.

Okay.

All right. Our next order of business is the dog park fees.

Um, and I do have one quick question before we move on to the dog park.

Yes.

I know normally we've had to read like you type up this thing for us to read and it's very formal.

I thought I had that in my in my file.

Do we need to do something more formal?

That's my only question. Or was that suffice? I mean, I'm not looking to do more. I just Right. I I I think what we did will suffice if say we used our standard template.

Um but yeah. Yeah. I meant to I don't know where I thought it was in this file.

Um but it was not in this file. I apologize for that.

Okay. I just was it just dawned on me that we usually have to read this very formal thing.

Yeah. It was much easier to have it very formal like that.

Um so, all right. Sorry about that.

Yep.

Okay.

Um the dog park.

Yeah. So, I did some research um and I think everybody has a um copy of the chronology um that I put together. So, I went through email um all the dog park files um because there was several applications over the course of the last many years. Um and um and I think I also passed along the minutes from that had been submitted to us of the parks and wreck meeting in 2012

which um lays out the relationship between DDOG and parks and wreck. Um and in 2014 14 um DDOG had submitted an itemized um annual maintenance budget which highlights the um um fees um as a source of revenue to maintain their responsibilities at the at the dog park.

So I guess the bottom line is um some time ago, so a good 12 years ago, um they were very clear about um actually 14 going back as far as the understanding with um parks and recreation.

uh very clear that um DDOG would be expected to do annual maintenance and that DDOG was going to charge a fee um to cover the maintenance costs. So I think that's bottom line that has been the idea. Um the project has gone through several iter iterations over the years. Um and the whole maintenance thing really just faded to the background. The the the foreground was trying to get funding

first from the Stanton Foundation, then from the state park grant. Um and so there all the effort and attention really is just getting the the the funding to actually um build this. And so the whole idea of maintenance and understanding about that um really never been on the radar screen since from what I can tell probably about 2014.

Um so that's where we are. it doesn't mean that that is what we still think is right or we still think would be right for this this project. So I I say that me in the sense of yeah that was that really was the understanding they were clear about it. So yes is that 12 years later is that feel like the right way to keep going?

Um, I think that's that's a legitimate question that I think is kind of now before us.

Interested in what people have to say about that.

John, um, thank you for putting this together.

U, ironically, I went to my computer the other night thinking, now we get this meeting, the dog pot's coming up, and I'm going to go do some research and I go in and I, oh, there's an email from Buddy. Oh, done. It was done. I was like, "Oh my god." Um, so you know, I was the one who raised the alarm bells on this.

Um, and my apologies to the committee.

Um, I think, buddy, it's just been you and I that can go back this far.

Yeah.

Uh, and I can't believe it's been, you know, 15 years that that project spanded. And I remember going, this project is going on and on forever. Um, time goes by and when I saw what was uncovered and what was presented to us years ago, um, I just don't recall it.

Um, and, you know, my philosophy regarding, you know, public access and fees, I I I just can't imagine that, um, I would have approved this. I can't imagine that, you know, if I had known about it, I certainly would have lobbyed the board not to do this. and I may have and lost uh which is not uncommon uh but I I just don't have any recollection of it but having said that

um you know you talking about integrity I I would I would feel uncomfortable reigging on it now you know they went through the process they presented uh this information to us if I was was asleep at the switch. Shame on me. And again, I don't know if I was and I just don't recall uh discussing this. Um but it's been done and and they did things right. Do I like it today?

No. But you know, the the approvals were made.

Um certainly I I a learning experience for me. I, you know, I try to do my due diligence and apparently I was lacking here on my uh due diligence.

So that's it from me.

Um Cody, you're at the podium. Would you like to be recognized?

Yes.

Yeah. So um when I found out about this, I was concerned as well for the reasons Mr. Soua mentioned, but um I don't think it's legal. We need to have if if the if you if you would still stand by what this is saying, we will have legal do a review. But we um at the service do not think this would would be legal. Um it's a public park. You can't you can't

charge a fee necessarily for a public park access. And even take the beach for instance. We we charge a fee for parking. We don't charge a fee for access. Right. If you don't have a vehicle, nothing stops you from walking into the beach.

Yeah. We don't actually charge you for access. We're charging you for parking.

Um, and I think you you know, it's a dog park. It was the plan, but we don't we don't charge families to take their kids to the playground. Right. I mean, it's we're we're a municipality. We're in the the service. We provide service, right?

We provide um you know, things for our residents to enjoy, their families to enjoy. Uh, and I think the dog park really is in line with that. So, um, we, my office is against the charging of fees. I've I've shared that with um the director of parks and recreation before we spend any money on legal. I wanted to just see where you guys went and then we'll have the legal review cuz I'm not

in the interest of spending money if we don't need to spend it. But I can tell you based on a 10-minute conversation with Attorney Cruz, he initially does not think that legally we can charge a fee. Uh because when we looked at, okay, what other cases are there where you charge for a park? There's no there's no public park that we could come up with that we're charging a fee for entrance

to the park. That's what it's it's simply the parking is the only and as we looked around the state for other examples too. Um beaches is the most common right example of that. But primarily you're charging for parking.

Nothing stops someone from walking onto a beach or a park. Um so just wanted to make make you aware of that. If you do if you do support this still we'll do a full legal review but I like to save money. So if if you don't we don't need to have legal look at it.

Other uh Mike I apologize. I I missed the last two meetings so I'm a little and I wasn't on the committee at this time but did how much how much of CPA funds was allocated to this project?

I think ultimately uh I think there was a planning grant of about 33,000 and something and then I think it was something like 26 260 something,000 and that's already been expended and utilized. They've already drawn it like it's closed out basically. Yeah. Yeah.

So, what what recourse what's in our jurisdiction at this point? What do we what can we what can we do? What are we being asked to do?

Um, well, it was raised as a concern.

Um, and I think it it is a legitimate one because the public access has always been important.

Um, it was helpful to go back the the do the research because, you know, I don't hold all that stuff in my head. Um so and then and and then from a distance of many years, you know, I think um it made me think that really perhaps one that DOG did what they were supposed to do and and I think a lot of that goes back to that um 2012 meeting with Parks and Recreation.

Yeah. in which I think the the board parks and recck board at the time at the time um was we could do this on the regional at the regional park but you need to be responsible for maintaining it and they accepted that and you know in accepting that they also then had to figure out how to pay for it. So I get I see where DD dog was really doing this out of necessity at

the time. Um, it wasn't DDog, from my impression, probably not DD Dog proposing we want to charge a fee so we can control access to this thing. It was, well, if you guys want to have the dog park at the regional park, you need to be able to maintain it. How are you going to do that? And they answered that question. Well, we'll we'll have a fee.

Um so in one way I was thinking that perhaps uh not knowing what Cody had just shared with us about even the legality part of it because it is kind of like going to the park and then being charged for one part of the park.

You go on the ball field but if you want to go over there you need to um have paid something. Um I'm wondering if one thing that we as a committee can do is if if it is our sentiment that we um having understood that this was what DDOG um had proposed and was necessary given that DDOG had the responsibilities for maintenance.

Um the barrier that is created by this we're not comfortable with and we would ask the parks and wreck board to reconsider that.

It's not a big maintenance budget that they support. So could not the parks and wreck consider taking that up in its budget and if not this year work it out for the fiscal 28 or 20 28 budget. Um, so I think so I guess that's where I ended up is are you know perhaps we take our concern to parks and wreck.

Okay.

Cuz it really is a DD dog that we have a concern with.

Yeah.

Having done this. It's like okay they were really clear that's what they were doing. But they really didn't have much of a choice if they had to accept the real the responsibility of maintenance.

So I'm sorry.

Oh that's okay. So from what I you know from what I'm understanding is that when this was done many many years ago prior to you know my serving on the board and the members there are no most of them are no longer there. Um, they probably accepted DD dog like we do like the athletic fields and and you know something anybody who wanted to use the fields that and it charged them a fee

and somehow that got misinterpreted into the you know it the into the into that was prior to see the the funding being by the town. So somehow that that got that got included and maybe it wasn't presented at the CP.

I wasn't part of that either. Maybe it wasn't presented here. That was just they maintained their understanding from way back when and that's what they presented at the park board because the first time I heard it was, you know, a few months ago that they when they came.

I did not know anything about that until you know so now you know reading after do thank you for your you know going back that far and seeing that you know that's what I learned is that it was done as they were seeing them as a separate entity like they would anybody renting the space but now things have changed since we provided you know money for you know the town's money to you know for that

And just to your your point, I just want to confirm so I understand. So DD Dog, they're I assume like a 501c3 nonprofit.

Do they lease the space or do they just is their only role as custodians to like take care of the space? Like what is the Yeah, I don't know. I don't They don't lease the space.

They don't They don't lease it. Okay. So it's still controlled by the community, by the town.

Yeah.

So I think it's just it was just kind of a snowball effect you know probably you know that and it might not have been presented John as you know to when they presented to to maintaining the field that it may not have been no we we we've uncovered the facts they did present the budget and uh that it would paid through that's in that budget. I didn't see that missed that.

No. Um, buddy, after hearing Cody's uh comments, um, my sentiment is the same as yours. Um, I think we bounced this back to the park department. Um, in light of what a preliminary discussion with attorney Cruz is that this is an illegal action from the uh, park department for the park department to undertake. I would hope that alone would um sway their opinion on this to uh not allow the fees to move forward. Um and

if they don't um then um I hate to spend town funds, but I would lobby this board to ask the town to spend the funds and do a a full review, legal review. I'm hoping uh the park department uh will change their course of action that the town doesn't have to expend those funds. But that's my opinion. Uh let's see what the park department uh has to say in light of new information.

And I could express in that, you know, it is as I can sort of one be clear that this is not an issue we have with DD dog. We think no and and again if DD dog was watching our last meeting, I apologize for raising those hands. I just don't recall. It's been many years. So yeah, right. It's not I just don't recall this uh being presented this way. Um, so

but in light of information, it's an it appears to be an illegal action.

Yeah. So I'll mention that and I'll just mention, you know, again how important the public access is and it's it's apparent with the imposition of fees that that restricts public access. Um, and we we understand the original relationship with uh DDOG, but we would ask that the parks and rec um revisit that um and not have any fees um charged and any kind of special access to the dog park

and then maybe that's way and then I think Cody, you can kind of see what perhaps you could make your judgment about this. See what parks and recreation does with that and then where where you think it's wisest to what the recourse would be. But I do think that was that's where our kind of communication goes. to bring our concern back to parks and wreck and really ask that they um revisit that, eliminate the

fees. Um and any kind of access to it.

There are all kinds of dog, you know, dog parks all over the place and you don't see special, you know, features.

Anything illegal about asking for donations?

Yeah. Um from DD dog to maintain the park. I think that's appropriate. Um yeah.

Mhm. Okay. So, you have those QR codes that when you get you can just make a donation if you're so inclined to.

So, if I get just um a motion um to um send a letter to parks and recreation expressing our concerns about the fees and requesting that the fees um that they're remove all fees for the um dog park that was recently completed.

So moved John and a second just u additional disc I I'd like to put in in light of information we receive u this action may be illegal or requesting that uh you don't move forward just we have a meeting tomorrow night so I don't know if you know do you want you want to send that to for the agenda for tomorrow or do we that the agenda's already been posted. We could do it under still awake,

huh?

I'm still awake.

I I have some questions like what the the consequences of of saying no, I I don't think there should be fees, but yeah, that the just thinking through the consequences. So we say parks department say that you can't do that and you should put it into your budget. What then happens to the organization DD dog? If it's town funds, are are town funds going to DDog so they can do the maintenance or

is now parks doing the maintenance and has and now like DDOG is has no part in this thing that they built. like just thinking through the like the consequences of like what what we're trying to do and accomplish with the parks paying for it.

I think that's Oh, yeah. Jim, I mean, at at times in the past, have there not been um uh going out to the public for fundraising for improvements to playgrounds?

I think so.

Um, and you know, so I mean that that would be a good role for DDUG, you know, to be spearheading, you know, the support or um there's also a lot of as someone who runs a 501c3 nonprofit, there's a lot of consequences to suddenly say you're just going to people are going to apply versus now you have to go find money like that. Those are two very different things. And if you suddenly

are tasked with finding $45,000 every year to run the park, um I just I'm just talking through like the consequences with no one here from DD Dog to you know talk about do they have the skills to fund raise? to that is that and then you know just like what are the consequences for this group that did they did their due diligence even if it is not right you know that's all I

wanted to consider is like how is that going to affect them well they did their due diligence I think the the not right part is probably sits in the lap of parks and recreation right um and so it may not even be clear how parks and recreation um would require another entity to maint retain part of one of its parks that but I so I I guess I see that that's something for parks and would

have to wrestle with um but how would how would we fund that you know that's you know how what's the cost would be yeah and so it might turn out to be a budget issue for parks and wreck and that's where the town can be supportive in um and making that you know filling that hole if there's a hole of some sort charge for poop.

Mr.

Yeah, sure. One more point. Um, so DD Dog certainly has fundraising skills.

They fund raise, I think, $20,000 towards their um the the building of the park. So, and I think a lot of their uh efforts would be more through just volunteering, right? A lot of the work just keeping up with the park. As far as the maintenance, I don't think you're talking a huge sum of money. I actually times are tight, but I think we could probably afford a couple thousand years to add into the budget.

I was looking at the wrong number. It's not It was the 40ome over 5 years and I think that's probably even on the the higher end of things. Um the parks and recck team already goes out, mows the lawn, does those types of things.

So, it's really just um you know, picking up after the park, right?

There's like a a dog poop in things like that that DD dog has said that they'll do though. That really doesn't come at a significant cost. Uh, and I think they would still be doing that. But as far in the funding, like I said, I I I don't want to speak on behalf of the finance committee and town meeting, but I don't think there would be a huge push back to

a couple thousand dollars extra in the budget to provide a free access to um to the park. And then one other thing is that this isn't um a shock. I've had this conversation with Rebecca Amarall, so it's already on the parks and wreck agenda for tomorrow's evening meeting.

So if you get a um a letter over to them Yeah.

that um it's already on the agenda. So that would just be additional supporting information.

All right. All right. Excellent. Okay.

We'll do that. Thank you.

Any further conversation on this?

All right. We need to take that vote on that letter.

Second.

All right. Second. And any further conversation? All in favor?

I.

All right. Opposed? No. And John, I want to thank you for raising the concern. Um because even if you had remembered that 14 years ago, which I would have been impressed, I would have been impressed.

I think it's still okay to raise it as I I wouldn't do that now and now that it's actually done, I want to rethink it. I I think that's a fair question. So I also kind of don't want to I I'm just embarrassed because my philosophy hasn't changed in 15 years.

I still think the same way as when I was, you know, on the board 15 years ago that I, you know, public access is important to me when we're expending public funds, you know. So, it might have been under the weather during that meeting.

Missed that meeting when it was I mean, you know, but uh who knows?

Yeah.

But, uh, I'm glad, you know, it went, you know, I'm I'm I'm glad to hear what Cody had to say because it uh we still may able to get this resolved.

Yep. Yep. Absolutely.

Motion to adjurnn.

I think we actually are at that point of the you know, we've been all over this agenda, so I I'm just double checking.

Um I believe that is correct. Okay. U motion to adjurnn.

Second. Right.

All in favor? I. Great. Thank you.