Conservation Commission Informational Meeting February 13, 2023

uh we a couple things I said I would accept written comments until close of business on Wednesday this Wednesday coming up so people still have time to comment we have received comments from Donna Faris who uh I think everybody agreed were certainly Salient comments uh including moving the definitions in the bylaw up to section three as opposed to section eight whatever the heck it was yeah

and which makes a whole lot of sense to me and then see some comments from the horror master and I can easily import these comments into the into the bylaw and regs I think they're reasonable I sent copies to everybody I don't know if you've looked at them uh one of which he as part of the Civil requirements and the regulations to require that they put the c word extent of you know structures

uh over water you know in in degrees minutes and seconds this makes perfect sense to me um then in a letter that he crafted uh addressed to Mike on the seventh he wanted to and culture license holders to others for docs and peer projects which I think makes a lot of sense uh even though they don't own the the ground they do have they do own the lease and they do have exclusive

operating rights and it could impede that so I think that's a good idea Mark Mark could you tell me do me a favor would you buy me one more one more time what you just said yeah he he asks us if we could incorporate within the definition of a butter license holders all right all right and if they don't I I think the owner of the property would have to be I might this is your

field of expertise well I you know I thought that his request to include um additional folks perhaps as a Butters makes a great deal of sense when we're talking about a doc or a peer not just the property owner next door but the budding um doc or Pier would make a great deal of sense because that's part of what his job is is to determine uh how it impacts navigation obviously

shellfish beds he doesn't need them but you know I I thought it was a good addition and it gives us you know additional ammunition if you will if somebody's later on claiming that this newly approved Doc is interfering with their use of theirs they would have had a chance to come to the meeting and present the credible evidence okay all right I'm fine with that it's only for it's only for that and I think it's it's

warranted Mike are you are you suggesting that you are comfortable with aquaculture license folders to be incorporated into that okay all right I am I think to me it's the stakeholders yeah and like I said a moment ago he also wanted us to give notice to the I think he said he wanted us to give notice to the folks who own the abutting docks and peers which could be two properties away

you know it's not necessarily your next door neighbor yeah but he's also talking about Moorings that's awful tough to you know for people to get those those addresses and so on and so forth I mean they'd just be going through him I feel like it would make his life more difficult he has that information I don't say I mean leaseholder would be notified because they they have a significant economic

issue but in terms of docs or Warnings or floats he's licensing them he knows where they are yeah I didn't think that the moons and the dots were that important I liked the aquaculture thing yeah I you know my feeling is that the stakeholders for docs and peers are often different than the presumed stakeholders for everything else which is you're a Butters which is clearly a list that people get from whom they get

the applicant's fault no this is well I could I could I can incorporate them all if that's fine with me in paragraph three on page one he indicates I may have missed the definition in the bylaw but business Corporation or trust may not fit that definition um he's suggesting we change the term to entity um I don't know I I think that uh the definition is the standing definition for any person or persons and

it seems pretty that seems like a standard definition to me all right let's think about that so he wants to make it more more generic right yeah so if you make it more generic are you opening up to any possible issues here I'm trying to think um

you know Mike before we go any further uh do we want to we want to indicate that we don't have a quorum at this point officially yeah I mean I think for anyone who's uh viewing this please know we're just I guess just discussing amongst ourselves we do not have a quorum so technically the meeting can't be opened this is not a a right now we are not in an open meeting because we don't have a

quorum so we're just noodling around at some point I suspect we'll have to stop noodling and declare the fact we don't have a quorum and we have to come up with a new date unless by some miracle we can get one more person one more commissioner on this call but you know I got to tell you I didn't think our definition of person was too narrow it was pretty broad I thought

yeah I think I think it's very broad you know it's I think it's you know at some point you get to personal semantics and uh highly read it and I thought they thought that it was fine it's downtown Council questions that well then we'll deal with that because they're the official you know if if it's too broad or too narrow or if it doesn't fit they'll tell us right

the only thing I and I will leave it at this I think we don't have to make a change if we're comfortable even though some other people have made comments um just because of comments made doesn't mean we have to incorporate everyone's comments just like put that out there okay so no but I'm just I just want to discuss these so that you know it's it's you know it's been

it's been discussed I mean I wish it was public but it's not um in the fourth paragraph on the page he alludes to the fact that he does not have access to the online permitting which I know he doesn't and he wants to create some sort of language by which gives him some preferential treatment um he already has preferential treatment on Doc filings I personally email him all the information

you know he can't he can't access it through viewpoint so I just get it to him yeah um he does raise a good point but from our standpoint as Conservation Commission it's up to us to get him the information where we need his input so we're already doing that we're already doing that it seems to me it's up to the town Administration if they want to use Viewpoint and have a portal

for all to make sure that they get everyone in the town who's supposed to chime in get him access to the portal right I mean that's really not a conservation issue that's a town Administration but you know I I don't think we need to put in our bylaws any special language about how we get because let's say for instance Mark we do put in oh you know Conservation Commission will notify the the you know

Harbor Master shellfish um you know executive and then the town decides to give them access the Viewpoint and he's got it do we have to go back and amend the bylaws again because we don't need to do that special treatment yeah it's yeah I just think we leave it silent I mean we've been it's been working there's nothing in the bylaws right now that tell us we have to do what we do

you know we we have to get his we want his input it's vital to what we do um and then it's up to us to make sure we give him the information so he can then give us that very important you know opinion and uh it hasn't there hasn't been a problem is it that I'm aware of where he's not gotten the information from us yeah I didn't think so I mean I I I didn't

want to speak out of turn if there was but I didn't remember we we make every attempt to get it to him in a timely fashion right uh he also questions whether 14 days a sufficient time to require written comments I I think it is look if you yeah it is you know I think it's more than sufficient you look at over you immediately point out what you think are

issues if there are any or you say I don't have any or you don't say anything which is deemed to be I don't have any right otherwise you're just holding the applicant up uh it should be 14 calendar days uh that's a long time Richard well like the 14 days I think you have to make a distinction between working days and calendar days no I think if unless you consider unless

you call it a business day it's almost always by default a calendar day then I I don't know about that in my in my field Mike it's not and there's a fine distinction uh in the statute where that's concerned business days or calendar days and since the pluses does not officiate I think we should make the distinction all right I mean I'd go with for 14 days I'm talking calendar days if you go business days

I agree with you that's why I think why not play it safe and make the distinction the practice has always been calendar days it's never been said saying it doesn't hurt well you know what you know what where would you go it should go in the definitions days are calendar days unless otherwise noted fine I don't know that you can do that because appeal periods are not are business days because

they're shorter because it's right but I said unless otherwise noted so when you're looking at appeals you'll say your appeals are so many business days from this date and we'd be fine right because right now if we're only saying days I think Richard makes a good point if we're only saying days then what is it which day is it and if it and if you need business days then we'll say it otherwise in our definitions we'll

say a day is considered a calendar day unless it's otherwise noted and we'll make those okay exceptions you know because I think your Point's a good one it's a good point I haven't even I hadn't even thought of that uh incorporating contour lines as well as soundings which I think is a good idea I think who's got most applicants do it but it's not stated so I think that's a good idea yeah

some of these though I took to be things that we would put in our regulations versus the bylaws

yeah it goes into regulations yeah he talks about translocations division of marine fisheries which is how he functions and I think that is the state law so I think that would be uh well we mentioned you know shellfish mitigation programs we can't we should probably put that language in okay then the last thing he mentioned which I thought was um something and it just goes back to what

you were talking about earlier Mike he talks about doctor designated navigation channels or specific activity zones within 100 feet of the proposed peer uh you know so that would include Moorings and things like that they need to show those and you know give some spatial location of those I think I I don't disagree with what he's looking for on the submittals to him and I think we should incorporate those

uh suggestions in our regulations so what's presented to him he's able to act on more quickly it takes a little bit of the burden away from him it's more accurate as well and I think it um it makes for a better and more timely opinion I think it also and I think you said this I I think I'm saying it in a different way and I I parked him back to several of

the doc and peer subcommittee meetings we've had and everybody's trying to point fingers at everybody trying to say what's your responsibility it's your responsibility this information is stuff he needs if he wants it on our plans I I don't see a problem with it you know they got to produce it anyway so when they use it for us or them you know it's fine and we do speak to you know

uh navigation as being a concern of the commission you know how a project affects navigation so that kind of works too so I mean those were he also had uh

uh they are germane to him we don't we don't deal with floating dots or Swim floats those are Exempted have been unless you want to incorporate them in uh but we've not in the past so that's really his bailiwick and we speak to that in in the regulations yeah I I you know I'd rather not take on more responsibility than we need to um and and clearly this is Steve's expertise and folks coming in for those

things would need to take to deal with him but I think we you know I think he's giving us this is in a perfect world everything I'd love for you to incorporate not all of it like I said earlier um we would have to just like we don't have to incorporate everything that anyone else would come up with those that we think make sense and add clarity or um certainly make in his in his uh

suggestions for the regulations make it easier for him to give a timely decision or a timely opinion makes sense because that'll help him more speedily get something to us and ultimately that helps the applicant absolutely you know I'm all for it you know it saves him time gets a decision out more quickly and I think it makes for more accurate plans too so for what it's worth I thought that was a great suggestion

for the regulations those are all from regular yeah he had very few on the bylaw right so you know before we close this out however we're going to do that uh as I said earlier public notice allow us for comments to be received up to close the business on Wednesday and I will forward any comments I get you would certainly appreciate response back if you have any thoughts yay or an a um

they can compile what we what we know and what we have and put together an updated draft for review uh the question I have is and I know I think Richard you mentioned it I read it in the minutes and maybe somebody else mentioned it about not having had Town Council review any of this yet and I can certainly send copies to them you know ahead of time if that's what

you want I've been talking to Brian and Brian was really waiting to hear what happened after tonight so um you know before he really chose to get involved uh again the times the time constraint is really on the the ballroom because that has to meet the town meeting we're on article schedule when you think about it we can actually play around with the regulations for many more weeks

uh because they don't go into effect until you know because they speak to the bylaw and they're willing to effect until the buyer all goes into the fact and that's a town meeting vote yay and then it's the Attorney General signing off on it so in reality I know there's been some concern about schedule but the fact is that until the end of the summer early next fall uh you know before we can start

implementing the new stuff what we're talking about eight nine months out so there's still time out there and you know that Tony and we can still work through the regulations and and get those tightened up uh a little bit but I I don't think it's a bad idea to keep that document fluid and organic with with suggestions and things like that yeah I think I was one of the folks that was speaking about Town Council not

having reviewed but towards the latter part of the meeting I think I kind of got a little waffly there but I said you know my bigger concern was if we went with the massive change where we had a very tiny little bylaw and everything was in the regulations I wouldn't want to have something taken out that Town Council says you can't take that out to do what we've been talking about

tonight and what we've seen so far I'm not as concerned in terms of the bylaws I'm not as concerned about Town Council needing to advise us because what we're adding uh if you boiled it all down aside from some some grammatical changes we're adding things relative to the Viewpoint which we don't call Viewpoint and we're adding definitions um but we're not really taking anything out

of of consequence so I'm less concerned about that my you know if I were going to do this in a in a perfect world I'd go radical on the bylaw and make it very very small and give us the jurisdiction to do what we need and everything we need to do we're basically doing through the regulations streamlining the amendment process but also being able to hand an applicant here you go it's all in here

from from Soup To Nuts all the definitions all all the things you need to do to apply what are your requirements for the plans all that stuff's in here this is just telling us we have the jurisdiction to do this and in a perfect world that's what I'd want but I wouldn't do that without the advice of Town Council because now I'm making so a radical change a radical change to what's historically been our

biolum and I don't want to find out that you know we've just taken things out that made a difference and we shouldn't have done that so that's that's kind of why I stuck with the framework of the previous bylaw or the existing Bible I should say I mean so you know maybe there's a difference of opinion amongst Council and I get that but I mean the document stands you know with some legal credibility

we haven't really changed it except for tweaking it I mean we we haven't done anything we've specified some definitions um but we haven't really changed anything and one of the things I want to say and this is based on my years in writing for bylaws for Plymouth and you know uh committees going to boards in Plymouth you know sometimes radical change is dangerous because it is so scary nobody wants to make that change

and we're we're living in you know conservation commissions and wetlands and a very very tenuous subject with people it's great when it's not your property when it's your property what do you mean you can you can't do that uh so from my standpoint Draconian change in a Bible or in regulations relative to Wetlands I think is tantamount to failure at town meeting or at at an approval you know at any kind of approval so

you know I've taken what I consider a moderate step I don't think it's conservative but it's moderate but I haven't draconianly changed things I I've made suggestions and I think these comments are not Draconian either uh you know we've we've briefly discussed so um this idea of trying to get to some goal uh you know Revolution is great if you can take it evolution is a lot better because it's less painful

I know but I can't wait you know just an impatient person well you know sometimes you got to hand it all to somebody else to close the deal Mike I understand that well that's why I look I I came from one position I've evolved into another saying I think you got to take this step but ultimately what I'd like to see is that Revolution if you will but I don't want

to and I won't do I think it'd be absolutely asinine to do it without much longer process the Town Council is involved at multiple steps so we don't do anything that's violative of the Constitution or the town Charter or you know or we're opening ourselves up to an issue that's going to be essentially a negative for the town it takes a lot more a lot more thought a lot more care

when you're going to do something as radical as that versus the tweaks right I mean it just is because the framework is still there you didn't pull it apart you've left your framework you're just doing tweaks to it you know so you painted the trim different color but it's still the same building um and I'm okay with that at this point I'm okay I don't want to take that radical step without a lot more thought

and deliberation and input particularly from Town Council Mike it is nothing but a recipe for disaster thank you I'm always good at that a recipe for disaster if we do not have the advice of Town Council especially where it's needed the impact of what we're trying to do will only be made more valuable with the review and approval of Town Council period I I agree with you Richard I mean

I if I if we were coming in with this very Mike Kehoe radical idea and I'm a town meeting member what do you think the first thing I'm going to ask Town Council reviewed this and if the answer is no well you can pretty much guess where that's going well but let's understand this can't go to town meeting without Town Council review is when does Town Council get it right

should they get it yesterday do they get it today or can only wait a week and a half to give it there you go you win the prize thank you you know I I honestly you know here that's the the timing in my experience has always been the earlier the better because if there's some issue you have chance to sort of spin it a little bit and get get the change done in time for

it still to make the warrant but you know if not you just have to hope you've done a good job

for him okay relative to the Bible the regulations we can set aside he's going to look at those because he has to look at the regulations as they relate to the bylaw okay he's going to concentrate on the ball because when he relate the draft wingman article it's about for the town meeting to approve the Madison protection bylaw period that's what the request s um no I agree I mean I definitely agree

I don't think we're saying the different thing Mark yeah okay Mr chairman how do you want to rent this well we've now gone about 50 minutes um past the you know the uh start time and we don't have a quorum so it's pretty evident we're not going to have one so um at this point I would have to say we never really opened we never opened the public meeting we don't have a

quorum we're going to have to reschedule the public meeting to comply with the town um town by law not the town regulations yeah so you know we're going to have to do that I don't know when we do it Kelly's offered a suggestion that we do it at our next scheduled meeting of the Conservation Commission and and maybe the thing to do is started early and um I hate doing it to applicants but I

don't know any other way to do it you know to to go from six to seven we'll have to do a hard stop at Seven I I mean and if and then maybe maybe what we could do at that point would be to after opening the public hearing taking out of order item for discussion and finishing up within 15 minutes or so yeah whatever we started or we can table and pick it up during discussion

we could we could and you know we could but I do think that the suggestion of doing it the same day is a good one um and and how we do it I think we should probably try to start earlier on this only and then go into the public hearing the normally scheduled public hearing so we would have to table it and say we will continue this as an item for discussion at the

upcoming public hearing which starts at seven o'clock and the items for discussion will be we'll just do the number one item for discussion we'll be finishing what we started if we didn't finish it already I concur hey so my question is do you want to start at six or do you want to start at 5 30.

um well that's a good question uh now I'm doing it solely in self-interest I just need to get some fuel in the old belly so um you know if we do it at 5 30 that means chances are we'll be eating on screen which is never a good look I guess thank you say that again Kelly I didn't hear you let's go with six I think I think 5 30

is tough for a lot of us to get fed and and be helpful even for me I mean sometimes just just to get out the door I wouldn't even get home by 5 30.

exactly yeah like yeah I know that would be for not it's it's okay for me but it just that I know yeah I think it better that's I don't know I hear you we just I mean I understand if you started at 5 30 you might actually finish it by seven but um it just like that it wouldn't work for me I know I'd be as late as I was tonight it'd be this late

again and then being hungry I'd probably be eating snacks while I'm watching which would never like I say it would look kind of awful you know look at that guy eating turn the camera off yeah that's not a good look either then they think you know then they think you've left somewhere you know I'm being facetious Mike I know maybe if I had table manners it wouldn't be so bad but let's not get ridiculous now yes

now we're pushing it aren't we really come on all right do you want to call the meeting now yeah I think we will so from what we're going to do for anyone watching uh this meeting was never officially opened it was never opened uh because we didn't have a quorum and as such uh what we've just done is we're going to uh authorize our environmental Affairs coordinator uh to re-advertise

for this meeting to occur at six o'clock P.M before our next public meeting of the Conservation Commission which is is that next Tuesday it is next Tuesday so a week a week from tomorrow a week from tomorrow so it'll be the 21st right yes so that's when we'll have this it'll be at six o'clock on Tuesday the 21st of February 2023 uh and if a choir is present we will open the public meeting on the bylaw

Amendment if we conclude all of our work in that one hour that'll be wonderful we will then start the regularly scheduled Conservation Commission public meeting at 7 pm if we haven't concluded we will then take up the bylaw Amendment as a item for discussion during the regularly scheduled Conservation Commission meeting and our meetings usually we get to the items for discussion sometime around 8 o'clock 8

15 so to give folks who are listening an idea if you don't have a horse in the race for the public portion of it but you just want to see the finish of this you can go grab a bite to eat and come back in join us glad to have you Mike this is the point of order you said bylaw Amendment this public hearing was supposed to be bylaw and regular comments on bylaw and

regulation if you want to include regulars in your yes we can but if we don't get any other comments um from the public I think our Focus in order to get it accomplished should just be the bylaw I agree with you that's that's our Focus but we we we're having a farm here yeah so you're right so that being so I'm suggesting is that the public hearing would be on comment review comments on the draft Byler

amendments and the draft regulate regulation amendments correct we have to be consistent with what this meeting was right exactly I agree with that I agree stamp corrected on what I said the topic was and I will not be legally advertising in the newspaper again As We are continuing this or where we're postponing this until the 21st I will do a public notice and post it on the web

page and on the conservation page as I did before I don't know if I'm going to get the bulletin board out in front of town all again all right we'll see if we don't we don't but yeah we'll do the best we can yep okay all right we don't need a motion to adjourn because it wasn't ever opened so foreign