The Historical Commission held a special planning meeting to discuss its workflow, potential initiatives, and public outreach for the upcoming year. The meeting, recorded by DCTV, began with an in-depth discussion of the commission's workflow for handling demolition permit applications for properties 75 years or older. Members clarified the process for like-for-like replacements, particularly for roofs, which are automatically flagged by the town's computer system but can be signed off on quickly by the commission chair. They also discussed coordinating more formally with other town bodies like the Community Preservation Committee (CPC) and the Dartmouth Historical and Arts Society by adding a regular agenda item for reports from those groups. A significant portion of the meeting was dedicated to brainstorming future initiatives. The commission debated the merits of extending the town's six-month demolition delay to 12 or 18 months, noting that the current period is often too short to find alternatives to demolition and can be easily waited out by homeowners. They also explored various public outreach and education strategies, including creating a speaker series, writing articles for the Dartmouth Week newspaper, producing segments for DCTV, and sending welcome postcards to new owners of historic homes. Another major topic was the organization and digitization of the commission's physical records. Members agreed to begin a group effort to index the contents of their office files, with the long-term goal of making the information digitally accessible to the public, and to seek assistance from an archivist or intern. The meeting concluded with a motion to adjourn.
AI-generated summary. May contain errors. Watch the video to verify.
Public / Other
So, let's let's give a a little little time for Are you cold?
0:06It is cold. Uh for for um for Jen and Beth. It doesn't seem bad in here, but I'm I'm wearing a sweater and got some hot tea here. Um we should just note that this meeting is being recorded by DCTV.
0:20Yes.
0:21Is it 10?
0:22It's uh almost 10. Yeah. Oh.
0:23Oh, it's 10:02.
0:25Um that's right. And um yeah, so you know, I don't know if I'm not sure if this was the best idea, but I had some things that I was uh I was looking at from the the list serve um um from M MHC. Uh and you know, it's something I I look at a lot, people talking back and forth about ideas, problems they have in their towns, that kind of stuff at the mass at the state
0:51level. and um you know and I had some ideas about about things we might do this year and um you know that that that maybe are good ideas or not but I just wanted to get everybody together and this might be literally an hour and a half meeting so we don't have to spend the whole day doing things but just kind of see how how things go and where it goes and and uh and do that.
1:17Okay, sounds good.
1:19Uh, so did somebody print Are these all set out for Monday's meeting?
1:24No, no, this for today. Yeah.
1:26Oh, okay.
1:26I had asked Michelle to um print out Well, I mean, it doesn't really apply now because this was really for Dan and for Jen.
1:36Okay. Okay.
1:37Because we it doesn't seem like anybody follows that. And I thought it was a pretty good idea.
1:44and she revised the um the password and any anything else that needed changing.
1:51Um and then this um we say not not following. Do you mean mostly the um the guidelines for meeting protocol?
1:58Yeah, the language.
1:59Okay.
2:01Um yeah, and it's good. It's it's it's the right language to use and I think we kind of stumble around about it a little bit. I know I do.
2:12Um, so that's that's good. Well, I I feel like I maybe I should text Chris and just make sure she's still calling here.
2:21Oh, I just want to check make sure Beth didn't send me a f Oh, I'll be a few minutes late.
2:27Okay.
2:28Oh, no. She's here.
2:30She says her back is out.
2:33Her car is here, so she must be coming up to the elevator.
2:39She said her back's out. So, Okay.
2:48So, we'll give it a little time just for a couple couple other folks to show up. Is that okay?
2:54Um
3:29Good morning.
3:30Morning.
3:30Hi, Chris.
3:31Hi.
3:32It is really cold out there. And you got a cold soda?
3:36Yeah. Why is it cold in here?
3:38Um, no. It doesn't feel so cold in here.
3:40No, it's just - 7 outside.
3:43Um, well, it's in double digits now.
3:45Is it? Yeah, it's 12.
3:49It's all right. It's like a good oldfashioned Maine winter. Just what I'm used to. Feels headed someplace warm.
3:57Yeah. Monday morning going to Ecuador for a couple weeks. My best friend and I turned 60 this year and it's our big trip.
4:05Sounds pretty nice.
4:07Yeah, I'm excited. Is that about excursions or beach or?
4:11Um, there's We're going to go up to the cloud forest and do bird watching and natury things. Mostly birds.
4:18I didn't know you were a birder.
4:20Oh, yeah.
4:20Oh, really? Okay.
4:21My mother was a bird bander. So, bird bander. Okay.
4:24Yeah. Like for fish and wildlife.
4:26And then um and then we're coming back to Keto for a night and then we're going to the Gopagos for a week.
4:32Pretty excited.
4:34Cool.
4:35It's a nice agenda.
4:36Yeah. How's everybody else doing? Good.
4:39It's very quiet.
4:41Oh, we're just um waiting on Bev to come up. I think she's coming up the stairs right now.
4:44Okay.
4:44Yeah. Um and as you know, um Dan and and and Jen wouldn't able to come today, which is uh which is okay. So hopefully we'll have a recording here and uh we could just go over some stuff, but it might be a a much a shorter meeting, which is which is fine. And I guess I was hopeful that we could have made use of the the projector, but I mean we don't
5:08need to do it because but in the you know in the future in the future I should have thought about that because it's just right now I just pretty much have the agenda to display. But uh um but I thought that that we could have reviewed those other two documents really quickly or you could have used them at 9:30 or a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Michelle revamped the two that you had done.
5:33Oh, because I thought they were helpful.
5:35Great.
5:36And um she changed the Yeah.
5:39Oh, great.
5:39She changed the um password to the new one and the new be three things.
5:45Okay. And that was for Do you guys want to use projector?
5:49Um I I because I don't have this on digitally. Do you?
5:54Oh, at least I No, I don't.
5:56No, I appreciate it. I I think we're okay with that. Beth, please. Thank you.
6:00But it's it's a really good idea. And Beth is here. She just drink.
6:04Okay, great.
6:06Beth, she means Beth, right? Okay. I thought you said Beth. Beth, um um I think in the future I you know I will try to put some things on on digital digital and put it up there just so we could sort of go go bit by bit.
6:19You you have this if you're I do. I'm sure I do. I'm sure I do.
6:23Everything that I ever had is on that drive and I I I do have it. I I will admit that I've I've had some failings at going through everything and posting everything. It's a lot.
6:36But I you know, but I I I think I it's one of my um resolutions for this year is sort of getting more more into things. Good morning.
6:44Morning.
6:46So you threw your back.
6:47Just throw it out.
6:48It was like somebody hit a light switch and I don't know if it's the cold weather. So they took x-rays yesterday and they uh gave me prenazone.
6:59So hopefully they gave you what?
7:00Prennazone. Hopefully it'll reduce the swelling.
7:02Right.
7:03Hopefully it's just the weather, right? Okay.
7:05You know, you think the weather does weather do that?
7:09Well, they say sometimes the hardware can contract.
7:11Oh, I had some sciatica stuff going on and they gave me a pack of prennazone and a shot in the butt. hasn't touched it.
7:23A pain.
7:24Yeah.
7:25Yeah. I had to go to the surgery center so they get it in the right place for the next round.
7:30Another cutic I tore a labroom in my shoulder about a month and a half ago. And it just it's always painful.
7:39So I'm going to get a I'm going to get a synis shot in it like on Wednesday of next week. I just can't wait because I've been playing pickle ball and I'm just so sore. I shouldn't I shouldn't be doing that.
7:48It won't make it worse. This is like every meeting probably start for 10 minutes of of her ailments.
7:54I tore this and but I am playing pickle ball.
7:57I played tennis with the torn labroom and the doctor said it doesn't matter.
8:01You're not going to make it worse.
8:02You've already done the damage.
8:03That's exactly. And they said you you know unless you it's surgically repaired, it's not going to get better really. So until maybe you get a replacement.
8:10Have you um scheduled your surgery?
8:13No.
8:14Just do it. Well, see, because I thought I talked to a friend who said he had the first shot painfree for like two years and then another shot painfree for six months and then it went down. So, his his was like he's about to get his knee done, but he's had like five shots in it, but it's been four years. So, did you get a new shoulder?
8:32No, I just got they repaired the labum and they put in some screws and Yeah.
8:36And how old were you when they repaired it?
8:38It this is 2018.
8:40Okay. Because I've been told it's like around 60 is the cut off where they won't bother repair it. They're just going to assume you're going to get something new there. Oh, my wife had it in her hip, a torn labor.
8:50My daughter said we're not going to repair. She's a super active person.
8:54We're not going to do it. So, good as new. I highly recommend just doing it.
8:58Was it a day surgery?
9:00Uh, yeah. I didn't have to spend the night.
9:02I just got to make you push for that.
9:04And then I just had the big Is it It's your right shoulder.
9:06Yeah.
9:07Yeah. So, you're going to be immobile for a while, but you know, I'm left-handed, which is good.
9:12Oh, there you go. So, for me, it was the opposite. And I was like this, and I was playing tennis with my right hand against a backboard so that I wouldn't lose.
9:20Anyway, I just highly recommend getting it done and not bothering with the shots. That's just my two cents.
9:25That's good advice. I think if if that's possible to be done, I'll get it done.
9:29Especially if it's day surgery. U Well, anyway, thank you all for being here.
9:32Um, anybody else medical issues?
9:36Um I I think it's a you know good idea that we get together and um I had some things that that I wanted to talk about for the next year or so. Um some things that you we might want to consider, maybe not consider. Maybe the first thing to do is just take a look at because the first thing I wanted to talk about is kind of um historical commission workflow. Just thinking about
9:55the things that we have to do to prepare for our meetings and and what happens.
9:58Um and maybe that gets into the uh well maybe the instru the instructions for the online demo permit. uh application review that um Sue and Michelle had put together and I think Chris was the originator of this but uh um is there so you know just everybody knows when when when the uh building permits come in it it it it uh triggers a a a demo delay if it's if the building is it's it's sort
10:26of the uh applicant's notation that it's 75 years or older. Um there's sometimes they don't do that. We make we've got to double check that and make sure that we we catch everything that's 75 years or older. Um and that triggers a DCH u um permit review. So it has to go through the DCH uh commission. um in some cases um um just to throw this out there when I
10:50don't know what what you know Chris's um um um um process was but if something is just um a very simple change uh maybe if it's a roof or it's something where um a very minor change is being done um uh um I'll get a note from Michelle saying hey can you take a look at this um and you know rightly or wrongly if it's if it's really like for like and I think there's
11:17no um no reason for it to come in front of of the commission um I'll I'll generally and maybe this happens once every two or three months I'll generally say yeah they don't this does not need to come up for review and I and I just want to put that out there as something I don't know if that's something that you did before that is we discussed it okay
11:34and as long you know if they are truly doing like for like replacing cedar shingles with cedar shingles then fine but if it the least bit off from that. I didn't feel comfortable doing that on my own. So, and that applies to roofs also.
11:54It did. I don't remember it applying to it. I think roofs were not an issue.
11:59Yeah.
12:00Well, we we've had some back and forth about this because, you know, she just had her roof done and she went and they wouldn't let us skip that here. The building department is my my estimation said, "Hey, no, this has got to go through historical commission." Is that correct? It's not a facade. It's not one of the sides of the building.
12:16Exactly. It's But when I talked to the to the secretary person that you were working with, she said, "No, it's got to go through historical, which" And I thought that we had worked this out a couple years ago that if it's if it's the roof, you don't it's not really our purview so much to speak.
12:30I I think why it has to do that is because of the new computer system.
12:35Okay. So once they trigger that it's over 75, it automatically will say you need a permit now. Uh you just fill out the permit and if you feel like you don't you don't need it, you can sign it off right away.
12:52Okay.
12:52And make a note not not required.
12:55Then it's closed because I agree and I think that's one of those cases that we were just talking about where if it's like for like or if it's for the roof, it's not really terine to our to our commission. I would just note that um the building department seem to push back on that and saying no maybe not knowing our processes here but at least it's got to appear in front of the
13:14commission. Um so maybe I should something I should talk to Randy about is to sort of say I understand that that that when they tick 75 years or older it it goes through this process but just know that if it's just the roof we're just going to sign off on it and without any kind of comment and they're going to go it's going to be an easy workflow thing. It'll go right back to the
13:32building department. So, and usually nobody no one applies for a roof unless there's a real issue. And you don't want water intrusion for, you know, days on end when it can just, you know, get moved right along.
13:47So, nobody applies for a roof. Um, they will for a building permit.
13:50Building permit.
13:51So, it's going to trigger. It will trigger if they hit 75 years or older. It will trigger. And unfortunately because when Chad changed everything because things weren't being put that were 75 like even in addition some people weren't marking it off. So it the computer automatically anything that's 75 will kick it you know. So that's why it generates that you have to do a permit. It doesn't cost
14:15anything. Okay. So in other words it'll be on on on the computer. All right. And you can just sign right off.
14:24Okay. Do you understand what I'm saying?
14:27Yeah.
14:27I don't know. I I lost you at it doesn't cost anything because I had to pay for my permit. So, your building permit but not your demo permit.
14:35Correct.
14:35Yeah.
14:36Well, there's no charge for the demo permit.
14:38No, that's what I'm saying. So, they would fill fill out the demo permit.
14:41There would be no charge. And then you would just say it's like for like no permit needed.
14:47But but you said you had to pay for a building permit.
14:50Yeah. Which is part for the course.
14:53Okay. So, no charge. just speaking about the building part. No charge to demolish, but a charge based on your estimated cost to build. Okay. Um and I understand what you're saying. It's going to it's going to come on to our queue on open gov. But we can just make a determination to just say, hey, this is good good to go.
15:11Um I guess um similarly, and we we just already mentioned this that things that are not um um I guess this is a frequent topic in the um mass commission um you know uh list serve is if something is not um we can make a determination that something is 75 years or older but is not historically significant so which is a little bit of a different thing um I guess so either something is
15:41over 75 years old and it's like for like it's an easy thing to approve it would not be um objectionable to anybody else um let me hold that thought for a second because there was a particular instance where that came up and I want I'll get I'll get to that where we make a determination. Oh, um oh, this was a um maybe it's not Germaine. I'm not sure why why I cut and
16:09pasted here, but um for demo delays, which I do want to talk about a little bit. Um, when we talk about I'll get to the point, but basically it was this just stuck in my mind that that if the house is over 75 years and old and uh we want to do a demo delay for some reason, um the homeowner, at least in some towns, is able to to file an application for preemptive determination of historical
16:37significance where we say this is not really an historic building for whatever reason. Um and they have an opportunity to be excluded from a from a longer demo delay. But let me table that thought. We can come back to it.
16:49Isn't that what the demo delay is?
16:51Yeah.
16:52Yeah. Um so why is there a separate thing for it?
16:58That's what it's all about is if we if we as a board say this is of is of historical significance, um we wouldn't put a a delay on a building that wasn't.
17:14Yeah, it's a good point. Um I I don't know why it would never come up for a demo delay unless it was historically significant and so we would never grant an exclusion from that from being for not being okay.
17:26Right.
17:27Yeah.
17:29these homes. If these homes are on the list of being historic and then somehow the computer is kicked out the historic part of the house, who's uh what if the homeowner wants to rattle the swords a little bit to find out why the house that they purchased that was said that was historic and now they've changed it. Um, isn't that a loophole on someone's house that's historic, but yet it's not historic?
18:08Let's let's let's table that for the time being. Uh, just generally speaking, our definition is 75 years or older. Um, and there are some homes that are beyond that age that probably are not uh don't have ties to Dartmouth's history in a meaningful way if they're, you know, not not terribly old or weren't the place where something happened or a business was owned or that kind of thing or a big a family. I'm just
18:29That's that that's useful. Um so anything on on the uh application for review, anything else process-wise that we think is uh you know it comes to us um there are usually three or four or five. Um some of them might have been pre uh excluded by uh by me or we we've talked about this is doesn't need to come in front of the commission. they they they they come on the day of and
18:51then um we meet. Um I think we talked before about Sue volunteer to uh take a look at the at the office and take a look for um um uh DCRs or any any more information that we have in the files about them before they come up that night, which is which is a a great help.
19:08Anything else from a process perspective that we're not covering that we need to do uh a better job of you think on on our on our meetings and the basic things that sort of the the uh meat and potatoes we do in our meetings other than making sure we explain that all to the two new members.
19:26Yes, absolutely. Um yes.
19:30Is you have a question?
19:32Yes. Uh is the Russell Mills under purview now?
19:36No, it's not. It's not. But that's something that I would like to just ask uh a question about I had a little little later on in there just to ask whether we have had historically any any interaction with them. Uh um any any joint activities or anything like that.
19:52I never have any kind of a conversation with Matt I think is the guy who runs Mike.
19:57Mike Mike I'm sorry who who runs that other than a couple emails about um one or two situations. But um it's to my mind it's a completely separate thing and and and probably rightly so. But but is there any opportunity to do anything uh with them? I don't understand really their workings and what they how they do things.
20:16They have a certain area that's under their control so to speak and I think I'm not sure where it is but you can go on the map and see what properties are in the district. Um, and that's those are the issues that are addressed. We've had a couple that were on the edge and if we need clarification, it's sometimes difficult to get a hold of Mike.
20:43Um, but other than that, okay, I never had any contact with him, I don't believe.
20:52Okay.
20:53Um, and I guess I always had the same question about the um um the organization you were on also the mass Dartmouth Historic Dartmouth Historic. Yeah.
21:04Um I don't Is there any kind of intersection historically between this town board and that we have we've had a member prior to my coming on it was Bob Harding.
21:14Okay.
21:15And I'm a member of the historical society.
21:18Okay. So that that's just kind of a um keeping keeping both sides in the no.
21:23There wasn't anything.
21:25I mean typically Bob used to give a report if there was anything that you know that anybody might be interested in.
21:31Okay.
21:32Yeah. That's the only thing that I think has stopped happening and I think it stopped happening when I was chair is that we used to have these reports that were regular that were on the agenda. I was always, you know, when Judy was chair, I would do a report from the CPC as to anything that was going on there that we should know about, right?
21:54And then I do they do the same thing in reverse. When I go to the CPC meetings, they there's an opportunity to share if there's something going on with us that they need to know about, which is it's rarely that way. But um so maybe a more formalized agenda item even if it takes one minute to say no nothing came up this month just so that it's it's um not passed over or forgotten.
22:25Okay.
22:26I I mean I think that's a a good idea if it's it sounds like from you could bring CPCs any any anything that bears on us to to the meeting and right that's what I used to do.
22:38What is the organization called Dartmouth Historical Dartmouth Historical and Arts? It's D H A S.
22:44That's part of the arts. Okay.
22:47What's the arts part?
22:50It's a long story.
22:51Okay.
22:52That the is that the u old library down there? That's Yes.
22:57Okay.
22:58Now, they're just rent leasing that from the town, right?
23:01Correct.
23:02So, they're their own entity, right?
23:06they are they're on today. But but just because we we you know we both have a historic interest and preservation interest in our in our charter. We just I think historically there's been a chance to at least at least inform the other what's going on. So you also have the Dartmouth Heritage Preservation Trust and the Cultural Oh, is that is that house a Yes.
23:28Okay.
23:30Okay. Do we think that's a um a worthwhile exercise as a group to put it on the agenda just even if it just comes to you know no comment nothing happened?
23:39Well there's money involved in this like they get money to they get draws of money from the state they do but but this is all I'm asking is whether in our meetings we should have a representative um from you know who knows what's going on in those organizations make a comment or no comment for the course of the month. not we're we're not hoping to get involved with the money distribution like that.
24:02So, but um yes, I think it is worthwhile to have information passed from one group to the other.
24:10Okay.
24:11And just do a round table. I mean, Bev might know something about something in the town hall that is going on that's relevant to the historical commission.
24:21So, just an opportunity for everyone to add two cents of what they know about current events. Okay. that month.
24:29And I think because we've got two members who who often know of those things, it's probably a not a bad idea.
24:35It probably an easy thing to do if if you are willing to do that kind of thing. I know I'd like to to know more because I I'm just learning the different entities in town that sort of intersect with what we do here. Um I may have Oh, sorry. I was going to just add that even the a commission sometimes dovetales because they might be historic properties or old farms or
24:58be working to preserve an area that has, you know, stone walls and stone features or something like that. So, um, if there are land acquisitions that are coming up that might intersect with preservation for us, that might be worth knowing.
25:15Yeah, I think that's I think that's true. That's a that's a good idea. Um, okay. And that can be dispensed with very quickly just maybe the top of the agenda, you know, after we cover approving of the meetings of the prior month or whatever.
25:27We used to put it at the end after the demo.
25:29Oh, okay.
25:30Permits just so that we could get those folks going.
25:33Okay. Yeah. Right. Right. It's a good point. Uh, okay. And um yeah, I mentioned this maybe all of you, but uh that I um met with uh the woman who is in charge of the uh cultural center um and uh at uh the old South Worth uh building and uh was, you know, they have ambitious plans over there and it's just kind of just throwing this out there as
25:59I said in my note that um they've got plans to ask for a lot more money and already have some a lot approved. um u from CPC and so um it's been interesting for me to to see um from from that perspective and also um you know um the the district one firehouse and um and the uh um DCTV building the extent to which um those entities uh don't look
26:31to um DCH as a I'm sorry DH HC as a uh as a as a sort of manager for a project, but all they what they really want is just a letter to the CPC saying, "Hey, we think this is a good idea."
26:46Um, so that's that's interesting to me because I think for even some of the things that the other buildings around town that I sort of that I've thought of or we've talked about in the past past year or so that might be worthy of preservation or action um it's been uh hard for me to sort of figure out who who is the appropriate actor that that actually sort of owns the project u um
27:09and takes it to CPC gets funds supervises the uh supervise it rather than people who are uh on the sidelines.
27:15and kind of cheerleaders of it and saying, "Hey, this is a good idea. You should you should do it." And so I don't really yet fully understand the role that um if any that um uh DHC has in in those things, but I think in some cases u I guess I'd like to hear from everybody about that with more history as it happened.
27:32Well, we talking about potential projects now.
27:34Yeah. Well, I you know, just I'm kind of skipping ahead just just more to um uh because that that sort of I thought about that with the uh with the the cultural commission um that that that they were super organized and they had they had plans for the building and they were just looking for support from other town bodies, right? Yeah.
27:52And that's typically how it works. And just to follow up with the district one, the old fire barn, they're still interested in moving forward with the restoration. They're trying to get through what they've got on their hands right now before they Okay, that's fair.
28:12Okay, good. Phil, did you have something?
28:16No. Okay, it has All right.
28:19These properties should have some sort of an inventory chart or something on it that this is not like if you have some property and it's got a wall. you have the wall included in on the inventory and there's a lot of sites where the wall is been inundated by overgrowth of well let's talk about I've got walls are on here already some place so let's let's talk about that a little little
28:51later on but I I think you're right um so meetings and workflow do we think we do we think we have a Uh, I guess one thing because we've talked about this before in the context of meetings and workflow that I don't think that that I've done is when we get a a request for an historical plaque, right? What's the process on that? I think we've said on the the new form that um homeowners
29:18should provide anything that they that they have, but we've determined that that's not enough. that we that we somebody on on this commission should go and do the research to make sure that it is valid and accurate and that kind of thing. Is that the right work thing to do?
29:34Yep.
29:34Um so um one of the things I would like to do is is make some kind of um assignments of sorts just so people feel like they've got things things to to do. I know Bev is the secretary and she writes writes all the notes and does all that kind of stuff. So, you doing a lot of the work beforehand. I would be very happy to be the person who goes to um you know,
29:58Bristol County Recorder of Deeds and uh and looks in the office and does whatever is required uh on uh for when people have plaque applications um unless anybody else wants to do that.
30:09But is that everybody agree that that's kind of something that we should be doing and that's the the way that process should work is that we have that stuff in hand before they come in as long as the plaque application the people who own the home do 50% of it rather than throw it in our lap which could w you'd be tied up forever trying to find the titles and the de and the
30:32deeds and everything. So if they buy a house, they should have paperwork in their portfolios for the house and that should be, you know, I disagree just because ju just because of the fact that if they bring something in that looks valid and is to the best of their knowledge accurate, it may not be accurate and it it's always going to be incumbent upon us to go and test the accuracy of it.
30:55So, I almost feel like, you know, hey, if they want to bring something in, that's great, but I don't want to put them through a process that we're we're going to go ahead and replicate anyway.
31:04It just seems like there's no other way of knowing with certainty, then at least we can be a single source of truth on that.
31:11So, and if if we in fact have files on that house in the office, that's something the homeowner would not have access to, right?
31:21So, they would have to come to us anyway. And from there, you would probably need, I would think, and Linda, correct me if I'm wrong, you would go to the assessor's office and ask for the the old uh title cards. So, there's sort of a there's already a almost a process in place. And then from there, you would go to the registry of deeds because the title cards have the book and page and the year.
31:45So, here in the building to the assessor's office, then the registry of deeds for a final and the office. Our office in our office. Okay. Okay. That's good.
31:54That's good. Good workflow. Uh and and I I will be the person doing that because I've got um I wanted to actually put a couple applications in myself. Um so I should be doing that. Um okay, good. Um this is kind of not in any particular uh order, but um just kind of continuing down the discussion of, you know, current current uh stuff. um demo delays. Um we had uh experience with two
32:24of these before I I came on board. I'm sure we've had more in the past, but two particular ones that I know u a bunch of you u took part in that that I can I can't even imagine the amount of lifting to get the cards out there, go to town meeting and all the work that required to to do the one with Matt Hobbs and also the one for the old uh police
32:42department. Um significant amount of work. I mean, I've got a folder this thick that Chris put together, and you know, it gives me a little headache just going through it. Um, looking at the um uh at the scuttlebutt in the last uh um year or so on the list serve, it seems like um there are definitely some towns that have moved toward a 12-month or an 18-month demolition delay and a lot of
33:07discussion about why that was important to them and how they finally got a path through town meeting. Um, do we as a group think that that's something worth trying to get our town's code changed to do? Is there value in it? I guess what have we learned from the demo delays we've done already that might inform a change there, if any?
33:32Have you looked at the what kind of a community those extensions were voted in favor of? Are they similar to Dartmouth? Are they cities? Are they I think I would say that they're more cities. Um Cambridge is Cambridge and Brooklyn are two that I looked at last week. Cities obviously and probably with more maybe with more Germaine historic buildings, but I don't know for sure, but not our
33:58size. I think probably is if that answers your question. One thing that I think of is especially just thinking about well both of them um cases you brought up is that homeowners if it's six months just wait it out right a lot of them have six months they're not even here anyway they go back to wherever you know Cambridge and and just wait us out and we scramble and we only have six months
34:29and I think if we had a longer period did the idea of waiting it out would be a little less attractive and maybe they'd be brought to the table.
34:39It would also give us more time to find other options.
34:43Okay, I think that's very fair. It's probably true also um in the situations that at least that I have read about. Um if we if we do that like for example with um with those two circumstances I brought up what is uh as a group what is our goal in that in that 6 month 12 month 18month delay what is our goal to do mitigation or or preservation.
35:08Okay. So I think about about Matt's place over in in nonquit. Um I know that not I but others um uh reach re reached out and brought in somebody who would you know did a 3D survey of of of I don't I haven't seen anything out of it yet but but did some work to take a look at some of the joinery in the building and things like that. Took we took a lot of pictures. Um
35:31there was some some value to that that other than simply signing off on that and I think that was probably worthwhile. Um, at the end of the day, um, as you probably know, we never signed off on on our historical commission. We never said yes because of the wording in in the bylaw and they went ahead and demolished it anyway.
35:52We we don't have any standing if they want to demolish. So, completely understand, but we never we we never went ahead and approved that part of the workflow and still it was demolished and, you know, right at the end of six months, which is the law.
36:05That's that's what they're able to do.
36:06So um so if if we say that our goal is you know mitigation is education is reuse of materials um is um is documentation maybe it's stating those four goals. Um and maybe there are other ones that I don't know about. Um, I think those are are worthy things and if we have a homeowner that isn't or a you know an entity like the police department or the town that is not
36:30averse to uh to waiting um then we can accomplish those things so long as I think we're prepared uh that once we um we go to bat and we go through the work to make to make that happen that we have in place you know other resources like uh like other u um academic types and and uh you know um people you guys have dug who are really understand the architecture of old homes and and
36:55buildings and they we can we can do things take pictures and all that kind of stuff and we would do that. We would I mean I don't know about anybody else but we would follow that path anyway because at the very least we want to document what was there and whether we have six months or 12 months or 18 months it's going to happen as quickly as we can make it happen.
37:18We've attempted to ask uh different um people and groups if any of the structure can be repurposed in any way.
37:30And to the best of my knowledge, we've never been successful in getting anyone to come in and remove whatever they thought was valuable.
37:41In terms of the police station, it's a whole different Yeah. And that's moving in a different direction anyway. the idea of having time to contact like the remediation people to see whether the building could be gutted and reused those kinds of things can take time and it can be weather dependent and COVID dependent and all those things so I just feel like sometimes buying ourselves more time I
38:08can't see how it would be a bad thing and giving I don't think well I mean I don't know how many people get involved with a contractor or a developer that wants to speed that process up and then they're going to say, "Well, I I'm going to lose my contractor," which is what a lot of people say now because there's tons of work being done. So, I don't know if
38:32we'll get a lot of push back from the industry.
38:38That's a good point. I mean, as a as a as a homeowner, if I I guess taking a step back, if they come in front of this commission and we say, "Hey, um, this is a really this is, you know, one of the oldest buildings in Dartmouth. Uh, it was blank blank blank. Here's part here's how it fits into the history."
38:56Um, would you consider X Y and Z? And just thinking about back about Matt's house because I wasn't here for for the first part of that. What was the thing that that um that made us say, "Hey, we we need to go for a demo delay on this."
39:10Was he was he reluctant to allow us to do the things that we've just talked about is is being You have to ask for the six months in order to kind of work things through to get the people that know what they're looking at to document what we need to document before the structure is gone.
39:29So, was he reluctant to allow that to happen without a legal six-month delay in process in in in place?
39:35I don't know. But I wasn't willing to take that chance.
39:38All right.
39:39And as it and and I think anybody that was involved that was a heart for me that was a heartbreaker that we couldn't make anything happen.
39:49We couldn't move it. We couldn't take some of the joinery out. We couldn't convince him to get an architect to make it work for his children who are going to be there for two weeks, you know. And the one thing that I wanted to do just on one day is get uh kids or young people from a PhD program at wherever it was, maybe it was uh Roger Williams, Roger Williams, come out for one day
40:12under supervision and simply take apart a couple of the a couple of the joined walls to take a look at the uh style of joinery from that particular time period. He said, "No, it sounds like a big liability issue." And even if they said that they would they would I think they're I forgot the name of the professor said that they would you know sign waiverss. He said no we're not
40:32going to do that. And I just thought that would have been really cool.
40:34Yeah. But that's the way the world is going. And I and we talked about e I mean and I don't want to belabor any of this because we've got this is kind of a big agenda. But when I looked into having the the little library in North Dartmouth behind the old North Dartmouth library at least stabilized or stabilized so that it could be moved again, we used to be able to use the New
41:03Bedford V all the time.
41:05Their carpentry and any any other um department that could be involved, they won't do it anymore. They won't do it on the high school level. They won't do it on the university level. It's like, how is anybody going to learn if they can't they're going to what? Learn from YouTube, I guess. So, we had the V people do uh the veterans uh gazebo about a year ago.
41:33New construction different.
41:34Oh, that's true. It was new construction.
41:36As soon as you start talking about, oh, it's got plaster, it's got this.
41:40Yeah. Okay. Good point. Asbestous.
41:44What else are we gonna find? It's dusty.
41:47I was like, do you not encourage the kids to wear respirators?
41:52Yeah.
41:52Not good enough.
41:54One other point um about the Washurn Lane property. Um it would be good if we had some contacts within the contractor community who would be willing to come and do some of that kind of work. Um In a lot of towns, there are known contractors who are involved with historic buildings and they're almost an expert in the historic world.
42:21I don't think that we as a town, we as a commission have real good contacts with contractors who might be able to convince a homeowner that there is a portion of the building that's worth saving and that they would be willing to take on the job. not pro bono, but at least for a minimal fee to remove some of the elements that might be considered historic at the Washburn Lane property.
42:50There were a lot of things there that could have should have been saved and saved for use in in su in reuse reuse. Okay. And I contacted well Nathaniel Allen I contacted him and I contacted Tom Figero from Marian and they're like they're usually one man shows and it's I can't fit it into what I'm doing.
43:16Storage issues too. You take a bunch of old beams or old windows and then what?
43:20Yeah.
43:21Right.
43:22It's a it's a tough thing. tough world to, you know, try to do. And if you don't have that structure existing, it's hard for the commission members to reach out to somebody who isn't in a position or hasn't been doing it last week. You can't start the process and think that you can accomplish it within six months or even a year if you don't really have somebody who is willing and able and
43:48capable of doing that kind of work. and and Dartmouth just does not have it.
43:53There are a lot of towns that do.
43:55Um a lot of places that do, but it it doesn't exist in Dartmouth.
43:59And in all honesty, was that really going to change Matt Hobb's mind?
44:03No, it wouldn't have changed the total outcome, but some of the elements could have been saved, the architectural elements. I guess what you're saying is the building was going to come down anyway if we could have come in and said, "Listen, before you know, the day before you take it down or the week before you take it down, we'd like to remove these these items," which makes total sense to me and I
44:24don't think would be objectionable to homeowner. Buildings coming down anyway, stuff's going to be thrown into a dumpster.
44:29Um, and you're saying we haven't got the deep bench of experts who got the time and energy to come forward in storage.
44:36In the storage. Yeah, good point. Uh, yes Phil.
44:39Yeah, I put my hat on. I don't don't whatever you want to do. I don't care.
44:43Oh, it's giving.
44:44Um, so, okay. So, do we as a group I mean, I think we've we've articulated some some some problems with what to do if we get a demo delay or if we have somebody who's willing to work with us, a home owners are willing to work with us for reuse or whatnot. Is it worthwhile?
45:01Um, I think Chris, you made some good points about listen, if it's six-month delay, people can wait that out. It's not a big deal. Is it worth our while in in in the sense of our mission to either educate um reuse materials, the other things we've talked about, is it worthwhile getting going through the work to try to get a longer demo delay written to the town vote?
45:24Well, I think you you made a good point about the education piece and we've talked about talked around this for a long time. um someone that does a program um like the house detective, although now I see that she's I mean she's Australian and I'm sure we're not going to pay for her to come back and do something like that. But there's a there are two people on the um Historic New
45:50England website. They have they do educational programs and there's a woman by the name of Elizabeth Pelga who does energy retrofits and the historic home historic preservation easements. Uh she does old house dos and don'ts, maintaining your old home. I mean to have something like that on occasion to get people into a room in person, not do it virtually, but have something in person in town hall and encourage people
46:25to come in and listen to them and ask questions and how can we help and you know just encourage that sense of community because there really isn't.
46:36Whale has been doing that. They've had two um symposiums or whatever about dealing with your old house. I think one was just two weeks ago.
46:48Oh, okay. That's interesting.
46:50So, maybe Whale has some um somebody who could come speak.
46:55Well, I mean, we don't want to repeat what they did in New Bedford. I mean, but I'm just throwing out the fact that they have this person, two people on staff that do these programs that what they charge, I think, is it's it's not that much. It's 200 plus travel. Um I think the the um Elizabeth Pela is from Jamestown, Rhode Island, so she's not that far away. I don't know where Dylan
47:24Peacock is from. And um I guess well while we're on the topic of programming, if we're going to get involved with any of it, um if anybody remembers that DNRT just opened up a property last year, well, it's been open for a little bit, but um it has a the foundations of a former house ice house on it. Mhm.
47:49And I worked with pal on the person who ran the ice house and some a few other details. But at any rate, I saw when I was going through this list of speakers at Historic New England, there's a woman by the name of Jane Hennity who does New England ice harvesting and DNRT. I spoke with them and they would be interested in collaborating on that program.
48:19Okay. So that I think that's interesting and I think even if if it happened in you know New Bedford already if we if if if uh if we could you know tailor it to Dartmouth and create more of a sense of of awareness of this activity in Dartmouth I think that's a useful thing later on um in the agenda and we can talk about it now. I I asked about um brown bag architecture discussions.
48:41We've talked about that before, like, hey, what's the difference between Victorian and and uh you know, uh federalist style of architecture in Darwin? Where are some examples? And I think that's kind of interesting. And and so maybe um maybe uh we um I guess create a a monthly speakers series that we that we try to um you know maybe do uh maybe do we do every third one um somebody on on our commission does it
49:13and the other ones are done by people we invite from the outside who are experts and things.
49:19Um, I I I'm I'm trying to think of of ways to let um the community of Dartmouth know uh we exist, what we do, um um promote that it's valuable, and to get them, if they're homeowners of an historic home, to think about think about things this way other than I got a cool house. Um is that interesting to anybody? Is it seem like too much work to um to try to create some kind of a
49:44maybe maybe it's once every two months speaker series where we just have a Well, you might want to base it on attendance, right? It's a good point. Um if people people if they come then if they don't then you miss the mark.
49:57You got you got your answer right there.
50:00Yes. film.
50:01Well, Bob Harden used to go and go to uh DCTV and he had a segment over there.
50:10Why don't you have a historic segment at the DCTV where they put out all this information to the media and stuff for the you you might be referring to the fact that DCTV records or we has the recording of the programs that we do and then you can see them. It's up on their website.
50:34Do they is it on their do they on the website?
50:37Yeah. So yeah. So, same kind of thing only it's not it's not like we're s doing a sit down interview with ECTV. They're recording whatever is we choose to do and it gets wider dispersal.
50:46Well, one person from the historic commission goes down through their files and picks out something and they include it in a segment of their programming.
50:59Yeah, I think Bob Harding did do that on more than one occasion. and he would um pick a particular topic that he had researched and go sit and either spell it out that he had done it or as part of an interview process he went through what he did.
51:17And so it became a program that was on a cycle to be shown on DCTV.
51:24Okay.
51:25That is one way to get a wider audience to see what it is that you're trying to show. maybe they'll get more attendance there and um more views at our meetings.
51:37And and the other place that I think some organizations have used um Diane Gilbert has used it um is to do something at one of the libraries, either the one on Crossroad or the one on Dartmouth Street. They have goodsized meeting rooms and would be open on a Saturday afternoon. Um, and be a little bit easier to do than if it were done here in this building.
52:03Okay.
52:03We could also tag it along with something that people would be showing up here for anyway, like a town meeting or Oh, that's a good thought.
52:13Something so that you know it would be in the hour before that or I don't know or voting or something like that. Yeah.
52:21I What?
52:22Yes, sir.
52:22Top of my head. You should have something that is like a training educational fundamental start. If a have a segment on TV or on the activities of the historic commission and what are the rights and wrong of how you present your house before the commission to show the right way and the wrong way. So if you come in here with a sketch of your house and come and present that, we won't accept that. You
53:00got to have everything on macros. uh when you do your demo and everything and you should have it every detail and every fine what people are going to be looking for when you come before the commission rather than coming in and just tying us up and not having everything set up in like um a level of completion rather than missing something that you have to come back the next time to fix it. And I
53:34think uh having like an educational thing at the library or something where you get a number of people who are looking to do their homes to come be have a meeting at the library and we'll run them through a pre demo pre fix my house detail like have a segment on windows, have a segment on siding, have site have a segment on uh roof uh have landscape and then have all these
54:11uh areas uh with landscape designers and stuff like that being there so they can give them anyway. No, it's good. It's good thought. I I I think it's uh um the overlap might might not be there. Like I if I want to, you know, redo my home down the road, I might need to know what the process is.
54:31Um, I think that they they have to go through the building department which is going to enforce that they have plans.
54:38Um, at least they that's the way it should work. They should be uploaded for the building department to even consider it. But it's uh it's definitely something that that that we could say, hey, here's the here's here's the b the the bar for what we expect when you, you know, come here. But it's something that that that we learned last year. um even if you have a a building permit under
54:58review for an historic home and so it triggers that they come in front of the this commission, they don't have to physically come themselves. We can still talk about their home even if they don't show up. Um and uh the only thing that that might change then is if we we have questions as a group, then we have to follow up with them after the fact. So our approval might take longer to come
55:17until they answer the questions, I guess. But they don't have to show up.
55:21Well, they should have a survey for the homeowners now where we mail out a survey to the homeowners now and then they have to fill out the survey on their homes now and then it's on file somewhere. So when they go and head to do something 5 years from now, it will be listed in the computer of what their plans are. And yeah, I think that might be a lot of
55:54extra work for them if especially if they I I think I think people don't think about those things until they want to think about those things. So we but it's a it's a good point. Um, so I I like the idea of of of doing something educational because otherwise we're here in this room and we only interact with people who come before us with a request. But uh it might it might be uh
56:15too much work, but as you say, we can we can try it a couple times and sort of see if anybody's interested, if there's any attendance. Is that um another resource that hasn't been used lately is the newspaper or Dartmouth week.
56:29um making a contact with someone there to do an article every month or every quarter.
56:35You could overview some of the information that is required for a demolition application kind of go through the process of you know a particular building, yours, mine, somebody that has done something and say the these are the steps that you need to take. that would get a fairly wide do most homeowners do their own application or do they get the architect and the contractor to do the application but I think
57:07well Bev maybe you want to speak to that because if it's something minor a homeowner does it okay unless it's like an addition then the contractor will do it you know but they I've seen homeowners do their own you know they're pretty handy We get them, but I see I want to say that I think it's overwhelmingly on the side of the contractor, but then sometimes they want to be the
57:30GC. So they they'll pull the permit out themselves and they'll hire each individual person to do what the work they want. So, in other words, they might have their own plumber, their own electrical instead of going through the contractor who has their own, you know, but that might be a good idea with a paper because, you know, you could say spring's coming up and that's when everybody does all their work. You know,
57:53usually nobody's doing anything now. You know, this is like the low. So, spring's coming up and that's when everybody starts going outside and looking at their house and seeing what needs to be done. They get their tax returns in. You know, you know, this is this is what goes on at your house. Okay.
58:09And some of them might not know the 75 year trigger.
58:13Just to understand that in and of itself, right?
58:17Um is one step. And then the fact that it is 75 years um requires that you give information and they may not know that they have to give that kind of information and then you can tell them about misus and then you know so it's a stepping stone to education too but you can say okay yeah the historical commission does review these things um this work and by the way we do have some information
58:43about your house and yes you are required to answer some questions about what you're going to do and what kind of replacement materials you're going to use. And to some extent, the commission may be able to move a decision one way or another. um aluminum asia board is probably not what you want, but if you can steer them to at least the um ASAC kind of material, you've made some minor change in what
59:16the appearance of that building is going to be.
59:17You've influenced something. So, so I did reach out to um the uh an the editor who does Dartmouth from this about a year ago and um she went and she talked to her editor and came back and said, "Well, because I was proposing like a monthly column." She said, "Well, we're not so sure about that. What would the topics be?" And I never got back to her on that. So, I really fell down on that
59:39one. I just It might be a new editor by now.
59:42Pro her name was Ashley something, I believe. But um but at least there was a there was some willingness to at least un you know continue further and you know I kicked myself a bunch of times for not uh not following up on that because at least I had somebody's interest to some extent. Um, I think it's a good idea. And I think I think if we do if we say, "Hey, you know, I don't
1:00:03think they want to do every month because in every maybe every commission would want to jump on board and say something every month, but if we say, you know, when when a top when a topic of interest is your main like springtime, you're thinking about doing your stuff." Um, and maybe another maybe ad hoc one, you know, um, different kinds different styles of architecture in Dartmouth. Um, I think think the the
1:00:25focus I got back with thinking about her note to me was well, it's got to be um news like there's got to be something going on about that thing as opposed to just general um dissemination of best practices or whatever. Is there, you know, was there a fire or something, you know, or something like that? And I think maybe that's where I mentally stumbled and just dropped it. But um so
1:00:47but but I think there's in the whole spectrum of things that we talked about you know DCTV uh the newspaper uh um you um having um you know what I call brown bag lunches but essentially a meeting where somebody people can come in and say yeah I want to learn more about the style of architecture what I need to do to to get a uh a permit. Um that that I
1:01:09think that's interesting and um I guess I'd like to and also you know Chris you mentioned uh both of you actually um um historic house detective at historic New England. I think that's really cool stuff and um again I don't maybe just me being sort of new to this I don't I don't get a sense that a lot of people in town think about those things as much as maybe we do. Um, pistol.
1:01:33Can we use QR codes on items with a message in the QR code where they would just scan it with their phone and it would come on their phone? But for example, like what you'd have um historic home of the month and then they could scan it and they could see what this home that's been gone through the process and done everything all and and then you could have a educational QR segment for
1:02:03something that's coming up for educational thing.
1:02:07Well, let's talk about that. I not not the second, but I I had I had something that touches on that coming up soon. So, it's a good point. Um, I just want to I want to just kind of fig figure out finish going through this a little bit, but that was the um when we get to discussion of of um I guess number two here, discussion of possible initiatives for planning, preservation,
1:02:30and outreach. That's I think that's that's in there. Um I just want to make sure that we've covered everything in one first. demo delays um scope of and I have not I've not really even really looked at um DHC charter um I know that I believe that cemeteries and markers are are on are are part of that um part of what we're supposed to do we don't really do a lot with that um and maybe
1:02:55this isn't the time to sort of get to talk about that a whole lot more but um I don't know if let's maybe let's let's table that because I don't really know what's in our charter that says here's elevator pitch. Here's what we do as a group other than simply approve demolition um requests. Um we talked about coordination with other other bodies. Um so let's go on to the um unless unless anybody objects, let's go
1:03:21on to the next the next section. Um just so we don't get too late here. Um so digitization of current records in office. If we could shift gears just a little bit. Um, I know we talked about um a better cataloging what we what we have now. I think Linda, you talked about um bringing something somebody in with some sort of taxonomical um an archist archist way understanding about better
1:03:47filing. And I don't really know what the organizing principle is to our um to our files just yet, but um I guess I I would find them more useful if there was um if I guess if I took the time to understand it better, but if they were organized in a in a better way. And of course I I'm a big fan of digitization and so I think that we're years off from
1:04:10that actually happening. But does anybody have any thoughts on on that whether it's the organization of the files in the office uh or um making them more accessible? I think just to backtrack how it all kind of came about the way it is is that there are the ones that are the inventory, the form B's and they have a good chunk of the space in the room and then the other files are
1:04:32sort of what anybody thought was the way to do it when they had something to put into that room. And so there wasn't necessarily a rhyme or a reason to how it was set up. it was what that person thought that particular week was the best way to do it. So, I don't think you can backtrack on what's there and say there's logic to it because there probably isn't. Um, to start a fresh is
1:05:00probably the best way to do it. And that would require kind of going through whatever is there, figuring out what's there. I have no idea. Um, and then saying, okay, how do we want to use this? what kind of issues or questions come up on a regular basis that require us to go in there and find something and I think the just thinking about it having thought some part of it um is to
1:05:27do it by location geography you know Russell's Mills Smith Mills oh not by address but by by general location general village area but that's assuming that anybody who goes in there knows will you wear Russell's Mills you know what is Russell Mills?
1:05:45People can go in there.
1:05:46It would be someone from I mean a new commission member for example, they'd have the address, the street address to know physically where it is if they're looking for something.
1:05:55Well, it's alphabetical of everything.
1:05:58All the streets are alphabetical in in the forb. She's talking more Phil about mystery, but what district or what village is that in?
1:06:08Everything but the formb's, right? The forbes are the forbes. That's straightforward. No, I'm talking about all the other files and all the other stuff. And I think some of it is just in there with no explanation. And it would almost require taking everything out and starting fresh. And to back up, the person that I had thought might be able to help us has health issues now. So, I
1:06:32don't think that person is going to be available. So, we'd have to probably start from scratch to find um someone who has that kind of experience. Um, but I think we have to figure out what's there and how we would want to use it first.
1:06:47I think maybe somebody from who's looking for an internship from UMass Dartmouth in their library if they have a library archivist program.
1:06:59Students are always looking for an internship.
1:07:01Yeah. But they get have to get paid for that.
1:07:03No, they don't. No.
1:07:04Oh, it's volunteering.
1:07:06It can be.
1:07:08proposes a learning experience for them.
1:07:09I guess MHC used to have a program called the Roving Archavist.
1:07:16And when that came forward a number of years ago, when I first got on the commission and I found that office difficult to navigate, right, I suggested that we apply and um they didn't think it was necessary. So, okay. They meaning well I was the whoever was on the commission at the time.
1:07:42I was I was the archivist when I was at the historic commission at the beginning and we would run all the paperwork through the meeting and then I would take it to building and it was the paper thing. Uh we bring it I bring it to building building would copy it have a copy they would have a file and then I would bring it back to my the files.
1:08:07Well I so then Judy would take things to the Wher Museum to use for her uh projects and then she would come back and have me put them she'd put it on the file and then I would put it back in the files. But then the door was never secured enough and people would come in and move stuff around to look for something. And then they had at one point people would be taking all these
1:08:37files out to put them on digital or macros or something, but they would never put them back the same way they took them out. So then I would have to refile and then they said, "Well, Phil isn't he doesn't know what he's doing."
1:08:52Well, I would I knew what I was doing after a meeting, but I didn't have control. Yeah, I I think I think it's it's it's a good point. I think now that we let's let's say we we've we need to remember that, you know, only people are allowed in there who are part of this group and let's really stick stick with that. Um, I guess it brings up a question that I have. Is is anything new
1:09:18that we're doing now, new form B's, new meeting notes, etc. Is anything a physical copy being put into that room?
1:09:26I did take all the form B's and put them on the table.
1:09:30You did? Okay.
1:09:31It was late at night, but they're all digital, right? We we have they're all I guess that's kind of my She gave us our copy to put in our files. We have the physical box full of them in the office. That's the new girl was working on it, straightening out and doing what new girl?
1:09:49Form B's and the woman that they hired to redo the files, right?
1:09:56Huh?
1:09:56Well, well, no, we didn't hire anybody to redo the files. We we we hired a contractor, Lynn, to do some new properties for us. And so those are the that's the latest batch of 4A and 4Bs that we we have. So that's I guess what Chris is talking about. But yeah, those are in the office. And my question is other than occasionally a photograph, is there anything that is not already digitized that we deal with
1:10:17that we would be adding to the the office?
1:10:22Well, they took all the slides about that so much really. My question is is is are do we have to think about ways to organize net new material or is that all digitized and we should deal with what's there now as a physical archive? How to organize it? how to access it, that kind of thing. And then everything new is digital and we should figure out a way forward with that part of it.
1:10:46I just got one question. I'll shut up.
1:10:48There are slides in there and the slides were removed.
1:10:51They were all digitized because I brought the binders.
1:10:54What happened to the original slides?
1:10:56They're in there, Phil. Thank you.
1:10:58And they were all brought to DCTV who trans they put them on thumb drives. So now we have a digital version and the actual physical.
1:11:08You know that, but I didn't know that.
1:11:10What if I went in there to look for something? I'm still on the commission.
1:11:14The last time I saw it, when's the last time you needed to look for slides?
1:11:18I looked I There were some slides in there that showed the Valls with the gas station there and that slide disappeared.
1:11:29Well, I have no I don't know what happened to that because I didn't go through them. I asked DCTV to do that.
1:11:37Is DCT is DCTV part of the historic commission?
1:11:43No, but it's a town entity that we can use for that purpose. And if they're willing to do it when we don't get charged to do it, then that's what we decide.
1:11:51You have people going in there that No, no, no, no. She went in there and got them.
1:11:55Okay.
1:11:56And brought them to DCTV. only we are allowed to go in there and when we take things we we are obligated to return them right that's the way the way it should be you're supposed to sign out material that you take from the files and put a note somewhere saying that you took the slides to DCTV had them copied and you report them back and there's you're supposed to sign out the material that
1:12:19you remove from the files okay so you so I don't want to go down this road too much but you're saying that that is a that's a policy that we have so like I I've never taken anything out of there, so I haven't had to sign anything out. But there is a sign-in roster somebody's created there where people sign things in and sign things out.
1:12:35Right.
1:12:36DCTV did not take anything.
1:12:37No, no, I'm not saying who did that and she supervised making sure it got back there. Just so we But if that's if that's the policy, if there's a sign out log, that's probably the right thing to do. I don't want to lose anything that we have there now. For sure. That's what just I I don't I think that's I think your point is a good one, Phil. We shouldn't lose anything that's there now. My
1:12:57question is we we talked a little bit about okay we got this big you know lot of stuff that's that's pretty well organized maybe not so greatly organized that organizing that is one element and digitization of that the second question I ask is you know from a year or so going forward seems like everything we do pretty much now is a digital copy it's online all of our permit requests
1:13:18all of our meeting notes all that kind of stuff is that true or am I missing something that we get that is physical that we need to keep on putting in there adding to that storage.
1:13:27I can think every once in a while, like for example, I I went to a a dinner at a friend's house the other day and they have a house that's from the I guess the 19s and they said, "Oh, we found the old deeds." And it's all, you know, and cursive and for the land and then the information about when the house was built on the land. So the land goes the
1:13:50deeds go back to the 1700s and whatever.
1:13:53So he sent it to me digitally. My intent is to print it out and put it in a file in there. So, it might be something where somebody has some information they find in their house or they find an old picture and they give it to somebody on the commission for us to keep in our files. That's the only kind of thing I can think of new that I could see being added or something
1:14:17like the forbes or the archaeological survey hard copy.
1:14:22Okay. I think it's going to be very limited.
1:14:25Okay. Uh that's I think that's very fair. And I guess I guess my predisposition is to say you got a digital copy of that. Let's um I guess this thing worth discussing. I I would think let's put it onto a a drive where we can all where it's indexed. We can search for it easily. You know this an address and it's it's access accessible to anybody from from our home. But is that something that um is
1:14:53is is that information if you know if it's not physical stuff that somebody's we don't want to have a member of the public come in check something out could could lose it whatever but if it's digital are we allowed is it legal for us to make that available to anybody in town who wants to search for that. Is is that is that legally okay and is that a good idea? Say we've got something like
1:15:14those those deeds uh they're digitized.
1:15:17We have a a shared drive on on um you know Microsoft SharePoint that the town hosts for us. Anybody can go on there and search for for an old record. Is that wrong for us to do that or is that right for us to do that?
1:15:28I think it'd be great just as long as the town is t the IT is arranging for all of this cuz technology is not my strong suit.
1:15:41Okay. So, but if that's the direction everybody's going to go, far be it from me to say, you know, that we shouldn't.
1:15:49But I think that it has to be driven by it, not what we think we want to do.
1:15:57It needs to be m something that's easy to do. Like if you had an old photo, you know that you could take a picture of it and then send it to Chad and Chad would put it on the server, right? or something like that. It needs to be that easy. I agree.
1:16:14I agree.
1:16:15But I think it would be great. I'm using I'm trying to research for this book and the amount of digital material that I've been able to gather and it's just phenomenal. I've done so much work from my house. I still have to go to the library and and various places, but um I've just really come to appreciate having so much available digitally.
1:16:39And I think that we have a great resource in that in those file cabinets with pictures and deeds and everything.
1:16:46It would it'll be great when that's available.
1:16:50And it would have to be indexed.
1:16:52Correct.
1:16:52You're right. It have to be indexed.
1:16:53I mean, we can't just have a random bunch of Oh, no. No. It would have to be, you know, homes or we Yes, it has to be again something with an archist with an intern who would work with us and the town to put it up on this server in a way that's organized and searchable.
1:17:11That's exactly um I right and I was thinking whatever organizing principle we use there, we should be doing. So when I look through all the the trove of material that you had in your thumb drive, I've copied it all, but I really haven't organized any of it.
1:17:24And there would there should be a way to do it whether it's by region, by address. And then there's always going to be stuff that's not part of that. Um, you know, meeting notes or thoughts on this or whatever else.
1:17:37I don't think that there's anything in that group of material or anything that's there in the office that that should not um that should be disallowed from being viewed by the public except for the archaeological survey.
1:17:51Except for that anything to do with native.
1:17:54Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that.
1:17:56So So to me, even you know, meeting notes, whatever. Hey, that's all public record. There's no there's no reason why it should posted.
1:18:03Yeah, that's my thought. But go on, Bev.
1:18:05I I just have a question. So I know when I was still here working, they hired somebody to go through this whole town hall to digitalize all the offices. So the building permits, everything.
1:18:18I don't know where they are with that right Yeah.
1:18:19They haven't even gotten through building, right?
1:18:22Yeah.
1:18:22They told me about three years three or four years before they got to us.
1:18:25So they have so they haven't even haven't even gotten to they nobody's gone in there.
1:18:30It's like one or two people with a scanner sitting in the office down at the end of the room going like you know and it's so you know now there of course there are automated ones that take you know they ingest slides, paper, pictures, everything. We don't we've got a very manual process right now. Yeah.
1:18:45And I think I I don't know. I I haven't gone through the files. Okay. I think if we're going to go through the files, we should all go through the files. I think it should be a a group effort, you know, a learning experience to pull out a particular drawer and say, "Oh, this is all about Smith Mills."
1:19:03And we have some writeups. We have some pictures. We have people who used to live there who gave stories. um you know some of it is helpful to know some of it is so far beyond helpful it's just there right so we don't know what's there until we start digging but we would have to be very disciplined because once you start looking you're like oh wow check this out you guys come here
1:19:31yeah so so what is the what is the way forward on this do we think as a group obviously it's it's a lot of time too something that we you know we don't all have It's a lot of time. So I can try to um talk to UMass Dartmouth about about getting some um some technical help around archiving u that will that would be provide a a you know sort of taxonomical template for both what we
1:19:54have there and what we do online. That's great. But then there's going through all those all the files in there. You know probably it's a couple weekends worth of work of pulling out and saying what's the best thing to do with this particular file? What's the best organizing principle? And then and then you say a couple of weekends.
1:20:11Okay.
1:20:1210 weekends. I don't know. I don't know what it would would take. I I I have no idea. I I spent three hours in there once and I didn't go back. I just thought I can't find it. I was looking for one thing. I couldn't find it. And I So, I gave up. So, could we do like we we have the first Monday of every month. Could we do like another Monday every month just to do
1:20:32that a couple hours?
1:20:33I'm willing to try that, but but direction Yeah, we adult supervision.
1:20:39I mean, just everybody going in there and saying, "Pick a drawer, pick a folder, pick a bookcase." I mean, that's kind I mean, it's very random. I mean, there's got to be a bet, you know, like an approach. And I think if you find someone who is in that world first of all, you know, whether they're an intern or somebody that used to do the job for real and is willing to do it, you know,
1:21:04as a um as a contribution back to the town, um I think you could probably find someone who has some experience, maybe somebody at the library, a retired librarian or a librarian might know that somebody who you know is willing and interested to have Oh, and I'll I'll contact MHC to see if they still do the we could still get a head start by picking a day and an and a time say two
1:21:33hours and we're going to start with this one drawer, right?
1:21:36And write down what's in it.
1:21:39Yeah. and just start with that like just what is here and limit ourselves to one physical entity and no touching anything else because I I agree with that because for me the most important thing is not necessarily what drawer it's in but what's there because because if we know what's there if we can index it then I can easily search it well it's there someplace in between drawer three and four
1:22:03that's even more important than the organizing principle I think because I just want to have an index that's important If we started with one drawer and we, you know, say we had five people and we split into five parts and you take the five sections of it and you sit down at the table and you write down what's in there these files in my pile and here's what's in them.
1:22:24Yeah.
1:22:25And then you put them back in the file cabinet and then you have a record of what's there.
1:22:28You go home. Yeah. I think it's so so I I think it's a good idea. I I I can certainly suggest another Monday of the month or whatever and whoever can show up. Um that's great and no harm if you can't show up. Um but I think a two-hour stint, one drawer. Um I'd be willing to take take the notes. I type pretty fast and and make a little index and um just
1:22:50to document what's there first and foremost because then if you do that, I think the organization principle um becomes that much easier because oh okay, now we're going to organize this way. Well, you know, 30 things in drawer six fit into this rubric. And so, we could even start if we could all start together once and get a process, then you could potentially say, "Okay, this is what we're doing for these file
1:23:17cabinets." So, if you had an hour on a Tuesday afternoon, you could go in and do the next section and we would have a log and you could say, "I did, you know, 7 17 Elm Street to 58 Elm Street, whatever." You know, I did this section.
1:23:35Put a little bookmark in there and and catalog what you did. And then the next person knows, okay, he's gotten this far. Here's what's there. then then we wouldn't all have to meet at the same time, which I think is a really hard thing. If I have an hour here or there, I could just pop in and get something done.
1:23:55I think that's a good idea because then, as you say, you could just say, "Well, this is what I got done, and here's what's next that I didn't get done." And then the next person could sort of uh pick up and go with it. I think that's a a good idea because it is hard to get together there. And then when the archivist, whoever it ends up being, comes to help us then at least we say
1:24:17here's what we have in this room help okay that's great but I think the initial everybody has to get together start together start yeah bill create a process the first two file cabinets in there have got nothing but copies of it of paperwork that is now on macros the first two file cabinets.
1:24:45Okay.
1:24:46The second the third is in alphabetical order. All the homes that are in Dartmouth that have been demoed or whatever worked on is by street and number of the homes all the way down.
1:25:00Okay?
1:25:00And there's four files of that.
1:25:03Then they had some woman a long time ago do what this woman was paid to do that never gave uh Judy Lun the copies and absconded with the money that she was paid. That was a long time ago before any of you were born. So basically those files were perfect perfect when I did them. But then other people decided to go in to be nosy and take things up.
1:25:34I don't want to make this a grudge, Matt, but but I understand what you're saying, Phil. I I I too, you know, did not want to see things go away, and I want it to be organized in a way we all understand. Totally understand.
1:25:42I'm going to back off of this and I'm not going to mention any more about it.
1:25:46I I hear hear what you're saying. Um, you said that the first two uh files are they're just they're copies of things that we have elsewhere, digital. It just paperwork like um like minutes and minutes.
1:26:00It's it's it's minutes. It's anything.
1:26:02Yeah.
1:26:03Okay.
1:26:03So, we can just recycle that.
1:26:05I can I think that's No, no, because some of those have not they haven't been digitized. Okay.
1:26:10And they were not record they were meetings before before the recordings.
1:26:14Okay.
1:26:14So, we have supposed to bring that to the recorders to uh record them so you can get those files done.
1:26:21When you say recording, what do you mean?
1:26:23Well, digitized. Well, that's something that we're It's a long It's all copied stuff. It's all things that were in there that were like one or two and then I copied them to make more.
1:26:34That was before the big rotation of changing things around and going on digital. So basically that's just a a a file that's sitting there that's just of need to know like you would someone would come before the historic commission and they would want a copy of the um it's a good point. I think I think there's it's worthy of a lot of the discussion that we're not going to cover today because for example do we keep
1:27:07everything or not? If we know it's digitized do we just recycle it? Should we get is it worth No recycles anything in there. They just Phil, I want to say recycle. I mean, do we need to keep a copy in in in the office anymore? If we if we know we've got a digital copy of it, it's online and we're we're finding ways to make it accessible and searchable to everybody,
1:27:27us and also the the public. Do we need a a paper copy of it?
1:27:32I'm not even sure that anybody's been filing copies of the meeting minutes since Bev started. Well, I think Michelle puts them online. So, in other words, Right. Yeah, but she's not putting a paper copy in the office.
1:27:46No, they're just things that have accumulated, right?
1:27:49And some of them have been dated before we started putting them online.
1:27:55What thing?
1:27:56I don't Is there a hard a hard date for that? I don't really know what that would be.
1:27:59We could ask Chad.
1:28:00Okay. Right.
1:28:00Probably.
1:28:01What What were you referencing that you thought was going in there as paper?
1:28:06What are you asking about? Well, I I just say when we start to go through and get a handle on what's there, if if the things like, you know, say meeting notes, but also um applications uh or um or form BS that that we know are on Macros, they know we know they're digitized. If we know for sure that we've got a copy, it's not going away.
1:28:25Uh do we need to keep the paper copy in our files?
1:28:28I think that's wise.
1:28:30Okay. All right.
1:28:31If it's not, we're not trying to create space because we're oversted in there.
1:28:36Okay. But I think if throw nothing away, just organize it better.
1:28:41Let's start with that. Okay. And if there's six copies of something and they're all the same and we don't know why, then yeah, five could go. But that's a good point. We're not trying to save space.
1:28:50It just makes sense to have a hard copy.
1:28:54It's so easy to walk into the office and look look at it and if somebody is um not as digitally adept, then there it is. There is one gap that is there is one gap that's being created now that things are digitized and that is in the form B file which had been up till a certain point the place where any information about a particular property was kept. Now there is no copy of the
1:29:22demo application that goes into that file as a paper copy. So, if you were to look at a particular street address, you'd have a form B. You'd know what was there, but you wouldn't have known that there was a demo application two years ago subsequent to what's there. That's a good point. So, there's not at some point the continuity stops some point, maybe three or four years ago when the
1:29:47town started, right? You know, using uh the online system. So, I guess it means we're always going to have to look multiple places. That's that's the way it is. But once once and if that stuff gets digitized, it will join the rest of the more more modern archives that we have online and hopefully create a continuous view of that property. But if if everything is by street address, if everything is by street address,
1:30:10which is an if I think at the moment.
1:30:13Okay. Um all good stuff. Um and and we got we got to circle back there. I got a lot of good notes about that and we'll talk to some people. We'll try to find uh uh some archavist help uh to that. I think the notion of of getting of of going in there um maybe once as a group and then going in there afterwards individually and clearly denoting, hey,
1:30:32this is what I got through. This is what I organized. Here's where I stopped. Um people can come in when they want to.
1:30:39And um and I think that's a good way forward for trying to get a I just kind of want to get a handle on organizing what's there. And then I am willing to um to talk to Chad. I think it's I'm a big fan of online archives of things and so I was using, you know, Microsoft SharePoint or I use box.com and it's one thing to put all the stuff there. I think I've copied everything up
1:31:02there to a big box.com. I want to make sure everybody's got access to it. And then and then it's organized in a way that you can easily search for it. And then I want to talk to to Chad about well how can we once we do this organization and and we make it accessible and it's archived in a way that's searchable. How can we make it available to anybody who wants to uh
1:31:21look at it for the town which sort of leads to maybe more work on our website to let to let people have a box they can search into. Hey, this searches both both maybe both our files and macros for particular property address. I mean I think that you know it's easy to search on Macris but it doesn't include what we have here on our files.
1:31:39You can search it through the town website.
1:31:42That's true. You can. So maybe a way that that you could do a a search across all things. Again, our website really really is not very good. And that was another topic I didn't even bring up, but it's uh um maybe it's it's it's something that's kind of along the same lines. It's digitization. It's maybe getting some adult supervision and help with that. And then it's then it's, you
1:32:03know, care and feeding. Once it's once it's built, then we got to sort of update it. And I think the last thing changed on there is like for from like three and a half years ago. And we keep hearing that we're going to get somebody who's going to redo our website, but nobody's ever reached out and said volunteered to do something, right? But I thought like CBC just redid their whole website. They got somebody
1:32:24to do it from the town who's like going through all the websites and redoing it.
1:32:28I don't know if it's like the digitization. We don't know when that's going to be our turn, but So, I've got a note to ask Buddy about how that was paid for, who did it, who's in charge of it, is there a schedule?
1:32:38Well, there was no talk about funding.
1:32:41So, unless CPC has maybe they pulled it out of an administrative budget because they have a they have their own budget.
1:32:49How long ago did they do it?
1:32:51About a year ago. Yeah, but they just they've been updating it um with all the projects. So now there's a map on there interactive that if you click on it uh on whatever an icon, it'll show what the project was, you know, whether it was open space, any of their four categories, a housing project, historical, and then it'll give you how much money was awarded, when the project happened, what it was, you know, a
1:33:14little box.
1:33:15They did have somebody in the selectwood office that did communications and stuff that and she's gone now. So I'm wondering if Oh, probably her. I forgot her name, but yeah, maybe that was because I I went to a presentation at CBC where she walked Magnolia. Magnolia.
1:33:30Yeah.
1:33:30So, well, maybe it's time for uh just for for me to talk to Chad and learn more myself about that.
1:33:36I think we could do something fairly fairly simple because I know years ago people would always complain, "Oh my god, the historical commission has all these old photographs and we never get to see them." What? But there's no photographs anymore in the files. They're all gone. They went in the book that was made by the Pharma Historic Commission.
1:34:01Yeah, but that that's just a copy of it.
1:34:04Right.
1:34:04But the original pictures that she put in the book are now gone. So all the pictures that are in her book she published and the only the book is there, but the pictures are gone. Who is this? the woman who wrote the book. What book?
1:34:22What book?
1:34:22The big book that's in the historic commission.
1:34:25Beverly Glennon. Anyway, moving on.
1:34:28There are photographs lining the halls of town hall in the in the the conference room. The I saw those next to the select boardroom. If we even could take some of those and have them put put a number of them, the you know the the photos of the month or for the next two months are going to would just be on the website. So if people clicked on historical commission, for what
1:34:57reason? I don't know if they would, but if they did, these photos would come up and people could say, "Hey, look at those photos.
1:35:04We've never seen those before." Well, that's cuz they haven't seen any photos unless somebody wrote a book.
1:35:11And the negatives for those pictures are in the file in that number one file next to the wall. So, all the negatives are there in the historic commission office and they're now digitized.
1:35:26I have no idea. I know that Linda was looking for a negative for something and I found it the first try and she made a copy off of it and then she presented it to someone.
1:35:40So this person but the but the but the slide went back into the folder.
1:35:46It was a negative. They went back in the file negative file.
1:35:50Well, that's all you have to do.
1:35:53Uh some of the town offices have a a page on Facebook. Do we have a page on Facebook?
1:35:58I have no idea because everybody goes to Facebook.
1:36:01Is there anything on Facebook that belongs to the historic commission?
1:36:05But then who's going to manage that?
1:36:08Not it.
1:36:09I only have one for my business. It's annoying as heck.
1:36:13Yeah, I it's it's hard to get somebody to to I mean, even for the veterans thing, I've got updated it since got rights to update it, but I don't I just I just don't I don't do it. But I I agree that that's probably more likely that somebody would go there maybe than um to the website. I I just don't know what people's behavior is um or when they would go look. But
1:36:34and there's already a Facebook group that does like Dartmouth history stuff.
1:36:40I don't know what the name of it is. I can't I'd have to think on it.
1:36:43Oldford grew up in Dartmouth grow up in Dartmouth or something like that. Yeah, that's why I'm That made me think that, you know, um that you could have one cuz parks has it, uh police have it, schools have it, fire department has it. They they probably have a designated person.
1:37:04They go, "Hey, you you're doing the Facebook."
1:37:07Yeah. It's the monitoring of it and you get people who are trolling it. It's just too much. I Okay.
1:37:14I don't think we're ready for it yet.
1:37:18Nobody wants to to Let's go back to talking about our ailments.
1:37:23We could put it out there, but then the main is the care and the feeding as you put.
1:37:27You need a person who's on it 247.
1:37:30Yeah. You need somebody pays attention.
1:37:32Sure.
1:37:33I got three keys for the files. The the Okay. So, the office is locked and then the file drawers are locked.
1:37:41No, they Nobody locks the file drawers anymore. That was a big pain in the butt.
1:37:45Yeah. Because see, people kept losing the keys. But I have my set of keys. So, who's going to be working in there so I can give you uh turn my keys in so I don't have to hang Can I Well, I I would say that if you give the keys to me, I appreciate that because what I think we should do is just make sure that the door start stays
1:38:01locked and then not lock the file doors be my thought. But or have them in a place where anybody can get to them. So, if you can get into if you can get into or how about this? If you can get into the office, let's have the keys like in an envelope by the door. So you can easily get into the file. So I I don't want to have everybody locked out.
1:38:17There is a set of keys that went between the last file section.
1:38:24Yeah. Because when I was photographing or copying all the files for some event that it was for the woman who was doing the files because some woman was doing files and they needed these list of historic homes copied the and it was pal. Bel. Okay.
1:38:53L.
1:38:54Okay, that's good. So, Phil, give this to me before we we leave. I I want to move on because I I don't want to get hung up too much more. So, so printing of photographs, I I like that idea. I I'm assuming that if we have if if their photographs are hanging around the halls of town hall that either negative or a digital copy is sitting someplace, but I could be wrong about that.
1:39:13Yeah, but now you have to find it.
1:39:15The negatives are right there. I can go right now and get you. You want me to give you the ones around the building? They're all They're all there. There's 35 millimeter black and whites.
1:39:24So, so what you're saying before you made a comment, hey, there are no prints in the files in the office. Is that right?
1:39:31Just the demos, the pride.
1:39:34Oh, by by prints I mean prints of photographs. No printed photographs.
1:39:37They're just the just the uh uh the negatives are there.
1:39:41The All right. This is just in the building department. They have a file of all the activity that the home had like roof, uh, siding, plumbing, all that stuff. There are photos in those folders that are building has.
1:40:01I bet you nobody knew that. But there are folders with information in there that's historic.
1:40:07Okay. Okay. Good. That's good. That's You're right. That's good to know. But it is digitized already, so we don't have to worry about that so much. Um so printing of photographs, we talked about that um digital storage. So one of the things that just the new homeowners outreach thing, uh one of the things I noticed was that some discussion on the mass list serve I thought was pretty cool is many towns
1:40:31um maybe once a year um they go through and see who's bought a home in their community that is considered historic. I don't mean just 75 years old, but maybe.
1:40:42and they do outreach to them. They send them a card. Hey, congratulations and you purchased a new home. Um, we have uh form B's. We've got records on your home. Uh, that kind of thing or sending them the records or doing some kind of an outreach to them to let them know that they bought a home that has some history whether they know it or not.
1:41:01Again, I don't know if these were small towns, big cities. Uh, it was a, you know, it seems like a lot of work, but it's a was a once a year thing. Hey, there were 60 homes bought in the last year that were that were we would consider historic. We're going to send you a postcard or something like that. I thought that was an interesting idea, a way of getting them connected to what we
1:41:20do here and the fact that somebody's paying attention and and and maybe a way for them to say, "Gee whiz, my my my house has got some history to it that I didn't know about." Well, I think that that's a that's a really good idea and to let them know that periodically we have programs that could address the any alterations that they might be considering. I mean, it's all it's really it comes back to education.
1:41:45Okay.
1:41:46Yeah, I like it.
1:41:47Okay. Well, good. So, um Oh, okay. One question.
1:41:50Yeah. Should is it better to wait until they've actually purchased the property or do we make a connection with the realtors?
1:42:03Make a connection with the realtor because I don't know if realtors feel like, oh my god, now they're they're going to tell these people that it's a historic home and they can't do this and they can't do that. Well, we know that's not the case unless it's in Russell's Mills. But, um, it's a good question.
1:42:20Like, what what's the best? To me, it seems like the easiest way to understand this is to go see when a home sale has been recorded already. Then we know who the buyer is, and our job is pretty easy. We've got a buyer, we've got an address, and then we can do a search and simply say, "Here's what it is."
1:42:37I think with the realtors at the NLF, they'd have a lot of energy for it and they might want to back away from it thinking like you said, I don't want to make a homeowner averse to what you're what's going to buying this house because there's they're worried that there might be some, you know, stringency around what color they paint it, that kind of thing. So, I think I think the one realtor that I know very
1:42:57well um he maybe it's because he knows me, but he does mention um if it's historic that there might be a form B and that they can check out MRIS.
1:43:08That's great. And I noticed I think you brought um well you always do you bring form forb to town when when one of the properties under discussion people I think are surprised maybe maybe happily surprised to know that that we as a town have some history some some some of the documentation about their house.
1:43:24Well if you ask people why they moved here that's part of the reason.
1:43:29Good. That's good to hear.
1:43:30But there are also people that they do that and it's like but when it comes time to house.
1:43:39Yeah. To their house. Exactly. It's like, oh, no, you know, it doesn't it's not all that meaningful, but Okay. Well, I think I I mean, I I was fascinated to go and just about learn about my house, learn about the you look at the deeds, look at the old the names of people who what they paid for it in 1928 or whatever. That that to me is pretty great. And uh I wanted I wanted
1:44:02to know that. That was pretty cool. So, um, so there's some will if we can sort of, um, streamline it, make it not too too honorous or difficult, um, to to do that. And maybe I want to go back before we commit to it and get a sense of how many homes change hands in the course of a year that fit into that category. I'm I'm thinking it might be 50, but maybe
1:44:22it's more, maybe it's a lot less. I I don't know that maybe we say they're over say over 125 years old or 100 years old. Um, and that we might have stuff on. Let me first do some work on that to sort of see what that number looks like to see whether we think about how much work would go into that. But I think for me, if I'm buying a home in town, I
1:44:42would feel it's like a it's like a welcome wagon kind of thing.
1:44:44Yeah.
1:44:45A little bit.
1:44:46Okay. So, I'll put down Yes. But more research to be done. Um and we I think we still have a budget.
1:44:57Not a huge budget, but it's $250. It used to be 250 a year.
1:45:03Okay. Well, that's that's something for sure. Um not for some postcards.
1:45:08No, not at all. That would be that would work out well. And I mean I think we could squeak a speaker out of it if we had to.
1:45:15What if I donate the postcards?
1:45:18Well, I think that's great. I would do the same thing. But so you're saying you you'd give some money to the effort? I could buy uh order some postcards that are got a historic value to it and I'll pay for it.
1:45:33Um, sure. We could we could talk about that. I don't know what if there are any specific rules around that around private donations, but like $50 or something. You can't go over $50. So, if you buy something online that's uh historic looking postcard, hopefully it would maybe I don't know coming from us. It should have something that indicates that that was a prop that's a property
1:45:59in town that existing property. We can't have some random In fact, maybe we should we should design our own postcard for that. design a postcard that has greens has a Dartmouth building on it and of all the verbs that we're going to put onto it and design it ourselves and have and have somebody make you know a thousand of them you know print and make a thousand of them that we could just easily use and
1:46:23address and for more information here's where you find it kind of thing. Ryan and I did volunteer to be the historic photographer attemp and then go photograph some high profile homes in Dartmouth and give you a thumb drive so you can take it and put it in your computer and then pick your own picture out.
1:46:48Phil, I think that's a good idea. I I I like that. And we can talk more about I think that's I think that's good. And we could choose for them to make our images for the postcard. will design a postcard everybody agrees on and say this is the one we're going to do. We print a thousand of them and we we get a handle on this. I think it's an interesting
1:47:04thing. So good. Um that's new homeowners outreach. Um L LHD signage a local historic district signage. We we I talked we talked about this a little bit before. We did one for Peyton. It's not really up yet, but when I went through I found there I think there were at least by my informal count there are like nine um you know clearly defined villages or areas within Dartmouth that that are
1:47:30historic and some of them I'd never heard of before. I've got them in my my notes on my computer. But um oh uh Tucker Farm, Jason Phillips Mills site, Round Hill, Bliss Corner, Bakerville, Smith Mills, Lake um Hicksville. Um I don't you know I don't I don't know.
1:47:50These are ones that I found on various websites that are called historic districts within Dartmouth. You don't think so?
1:47:58They're not historic districts per se.
1:48:01They might be considered historic maybe informal areas. Maybe that's the way to go. I mean, Jason Phillips Mill, that's it's one site.
1:48:09It's a site. That's what it is. And it's on private property.
1:48:12Yeah, that's true.
1:48:13You can't I visited it once.
1:48:15You can't you can't uh put a sign on a private property, right? Those little ones.
1:48:23Well, in in the in the veteran side, we we do that, but only with their consent, and then they have to agree to maintain it. So, anyway, but that's really that's not really what I was after there. I guess I was wondering do we um setting aside what they are or how many there are or whatever. Do we have any interest or appetite as a group to uh to put to
1:48:43make more sign have more signs made and put them up as a as maybe with QR codes or as a way to otherwise um uh let people know that they're entering an area. I know certainly in Russell Mills they have their own sign there. Um is that interesting to us as a group? Do we have any legitimate involvement in that?
1:49:01Maybe not. I don't know about anybody else, but I think what we've got on our plate now is about all we can handle.
1:49:06That's good. That's fair enough. Fair enough.
1:49:08But I do want to say that a police officer came into town hall to tell Michelle that a sign had been hit up at Hicksville.
1:49:18Oh.
1:49:19So, we may want to look into that. I don't know who wants to do that, but I could go.
1:49:26Is that Hicksville? North Hicksville up by There's only one Hicksville.
1:49:32But But what's what side of it? Maybe.
1:49:34So m maybe if it's at the it's at the the uh junction where the the jog for Old Fall River Road is near the cemetery and the um would you ask Michelle if she knows more about that? If it's worth I'll find out who the police officer was. Yeah.
1:49:50Um okay, so we got past that. Um so awards program something again they talk about a fair amount on this thing. just just recycling some ideas um that I thought was interesting. But but a lot of towns have got awards programs for historical renovations.
1:50:07And so whether it's uh we consider a builder, an architect, a homeowner that does things right in a way that we would consider uh uh uh the right way, but also illustrative of the way we think as a commission people should be approaching this. Of course, they have to have often have to have money to do things the right way. You know, it might devolve into that kind of thing. But is
1:50:30it worthwhile? A lot of towns have got programs where they they do like, you know, grand prize, runner up, runner up, and they have like even like a little banquet that is a fundraiser for the for the year and it gets people involved because they get a chance to showcase, hey, I did something right or a builder is great, a great builder, and they can say, we won the uh the uh uh DHC's uh
1:50:51you know, historic builder of the year award three years ago or whatever it was.
1:50:56I think that I thought that was a pretty cool idea. It requires some organization and some effort and you know I've talked to a couple just over email a couple other towns about how they did it and um what what their criteria was. So so I I could think we could do this if there's appetite to do this if we think it's an interesting idea to sort of showcase um maybe have some architects nominate
1:51:20their homes or whatever and we pick one or two that is like hey we think they did the best job based on this criteria in the last year. I think that's that's I mean it's it like you said it takes money to do some of these things the you know to take it above and beyond and I think that's automatically excluding others and it does I wouldn't want to to be I
1:51:53wouldn't want to give the appearance that we're rewarding people because they have a lot of money and can pay people to do that kind of work. And I don't know how you I mean I don't know if you have a do-it-yourself category or what you're going to do, but um and Tinker Toys.
1:52:08And has anybody had any experience with event planning other than Oh, I guess Linda has.
1:52:14I have. J Penny's 25 years.
1:52:18Event planning like a dinner?
1:52:21Not a dinner, but No, that's event planning. So, you're talking about an you're talking about, you know, having a fundraiser.
1:52:29Yeah, it's a lot.
1:52:31It's a lot of work and it's an idea. Um, I think you have to start with an idea and then talk to a few people. Um, Greg Jones might be somebody to talk to.
1:52:41Who's got to talk to about this?
1:52:43Um, you know what?
1:52:44He liked it. But he he does because he would get all the awards.
1:52:47He needs a lot of Well, I think he's you know, to to your point, I you're exactly right. people people who would be showcased most likely would be people who spent money. I don't know if there's anything organically wrong with that. It would mean that people who don't have money probably wouldn't be showcased, but if we took it out of the maybe if we took it out of the homeowners perview
1:53:08and said this is a hey, this is a um a builder or an architect's award. I don't know. I think I think even if it's a a homeowners and it's done really really well, it maybe it gives people something to aspire toward. But again, if they don't have money, they're not going to do it.
1:53:25But I think instead of showcasing it as an award thing, maybe that would be something for the website to do homeowner best practice. Hey, look what was done here. Or here's what you can do.
1:53:39you know, even if you can't use the cedar shingles, you know, this person did it right with these materials. I think using our website or um newspaper article or whatever it is would be a better way to do it because of a less planning and more equity. I don't know if that's the right word. And there's a um there's al there's already an award and I forget Preservation Massachusetts. You can
1:54:12nominate anybody in the community that's done a you know fabulous job of restoring their old house but again it's usually and if it was a good publicity that's an award in itself.
1:54:28Um I think Whale does something on an annual basis too that shows taking something from some you know that isn't really that prestigious at the moment but then gets turned into something I think so talking to people at whale and how they do it and what their criteria is on a local basis might be helpful too.
1:54:52I've had I've been I I've heard the term. I know it's an organization in New Bedford but Right.
1:54:57I don't really know what they do. What What does it What does it stand for?
1:55:01Waterfront Historic League.
1:55:05Okay.
1:55:06Are Yeah, there's an area in there for the A Waterfront Historic Area League.
1:55:13And it's Miranda.
1:55:15Aaron Miranda.
1:55:16Miranda.
1:55:16Aaron.
1:55:17Miranda.
1:55:19Really nice. Easy to talk to.
1:55:23Okay, okay. Okay. Um, let's move on. And again, thank you for all being here and putting up with this and going through this. And, you know, maybe we could have done this in in a more of a marathon Monday night meeting, but um I I appreciate it.
1:55:37I'm not good at night.
1:55:39Yeah, me neither.
1:55:40Me neither.
1:55:40Uhuh. This is much better.
1:55:42If I'm not watching something by 8:30 or so, I'm going to go to bed. Um, so worst program. Okay. Possible. Okay. So, um, slight slight detour, but it discussion of we're going to go on to number three here. Discussion of possible product for historical preservation. Looking at the PAL survey, we have a break.
1:55:59Oh, absolutely, Phil. Do you want to go to use the men's room? Absolutely. Um, um, I saw that there was notation of National Historic Register eligibility for three properties in town. And I don't know if we we did anything with that. Maybe we did it already that before I got here. But three properties um on the PAL survey when just reading through it the other night looking for
1:56:22something else. Barney's Joy Farm, Taber and Jarvis Ashley House and Captain David and Avis Howland House were they had de but they were eligible. They thought from the PAL thought they were eligible for national historic register eligibility. Do we do anything about that? Was their report to us. Did we take that and run with that at all?
1:56:44I don't even know where.
1:56:46So, what year was that?
1:56:47Oh, it was like a last batch. Three.
1:56:49It was the last last It was like three years ago. It was a pretty thick report we got from PAL and it said in in, you know, deep into it, it said there are three properties we flagged that are eligible for this. And I I thought, huh, did we do anything about that or did we I did not I remember reading that now that you mentioned it.
1:57:06Okay.
1:57:06And um a national register designation is for a particular property. If you took a form B and you say that requires three or four hours to do a form B to do a national register is like 30 hours. It is intense and so documented.
1:57:25Um it costs money to do them and Well, absolutely. I guess I would hire somebody like like Lynn who we hired before because I think that would be a good valid use of CPC funding to do and it brings some No, you don't think so?
1:57:39No, because it doesn't it does. Well, I mean, maybe so, but it doesn't mean that at some future date they that doesn't provide a layer of security.
1:57:50No, it it provides it can you can still have it demolished if you have enough money.
1:57:55Okay.
1:57:56And again, I don't see them citing what I'm sorry. The houses are again properties right there.
1:58:03Avis Howland. Oh, I was going to say that Smith Neck Road. That one I did know. Ashley House. High Hill Road. Oh, yeah. I know that one. Barney's Joy.
1:58:16Barney's Joy. That's private. So, 14, I'm going to say, is probably at the very end.
1:58:24The The question is why would you do it?
1:58:29Well, I don't know. Why does anybody Why does anybody do that?
1:58:33Maybe. I mean, they have a conversation with the homeowner, do they not before they do these or do they know?
1:58:40They don't have to.
1:58:41And like, why do we even have like why is Russell Mills its own historic district? Why did somebody had an idea?
1:58:47Does it protect it? Does it Right.
1:58:48What does it do?
1:58:49So, I I I don't know. But sounds like you're saying this doesn't offer any protection.
1:58:53Does not.
1:58:54Okay.
1:58:55Um, does it does it do anything for anybody other than Well, I mean, Smith Neck Road, those houses are monstrous. I mean, I guess it's prestigious if you want to look at it that way.
1:59:08So, again, it's a matter of why. It's a good question. I don't know the answer why. I I'd like to think that there's a reason why. Otherwise, why why have a program?
1:59:19I would have been more inclined to have that work done on the house um on uh in nonquick. Yeah.
1:59:31So, so more for somebody spends, you know, 30 hours documenting it, but it still gets torn down.
1:59:38Mhm.
1:59:38Okay. So, it's not not saved. Okay. So, I think the answer is they flagged it. I got I can look at more at maybe why what the what the what the uh um criteria was why they flagged it, but it sounds like you're saying it doesn't really provide any protection. I guess I'd like a better answer as to why people do this any why they do it at all.
1:59:57That's a good thing to search.
1:59:58Yeah.
1:59:59Yeah. Why bother?
2:00:00What's the point? Um what's the benefit?
2:00:03Um okay.
2:00:09I thought it gave you an advantage with the tax credits.
2:00:14Nothing.
2:00:15Okay.
2:00:16But that's also another that's another good program.
2:00:21Preservation tax credits. We haven't even talked about that.
2:00:25Are only available on commercial sites.
2:00:28They're only Huh.
2:00:31And things. What about um what about PAS though? Um preservation um agreements uh like a like a CRA preservation restrictions.
2:00:44So so you know I do some work with the NRT around conservation restrictions. You know they have to agree to not develop and they get a tax break on that. Um I know Pas exists. You know it's used throughout the the state. Do do there's one in Russell's Mills?
2:01:00There is one in one Russell Mills. Okay.
2:01:02So, is that something worth talking about ever pushing? Is it part of our purview? Is it not really our job? Um, if it can't be on a residential if Oh, P could be, but it can, but you don't I'm not sure that you get any kind of a benefit from it.
2:01:19You don't you right. It really is a person's on a person's initiative to say, I think my property is worth saving whether it's land or building. And in the process of doing that, you can put a preservation restriction on it. You have to have that preservation restriction held by a nonprofit. And in turn, you can get some kind of um credit on, I think, local taxes.
2:01:47Um but you can't be buying something by doing it. It It's not as though you're getting something in return monetarily.
2:02:00Well, you're getting a tax credit.
2:02:02I think I don't think anybody who does the conservation restrictions think, "Oh, I just do it because I I love that tree over there." They're thinking, "Okay, I'm going to get significant tax benefit reduction, but not payback, I guess."
2:02:15No, it is.
2:02:16No, you're not going to make money on it, but you'll pay less money, which is something, I guess.
2:02:20But it doesn't seem like it's enough of an incentive. And I'm I'm not talking about a CR. I'm talking about a preservation restriction and I don't I I honestly I don't know.
2:02:31So I guess I like to read maybe research what's the benefit. Why do people why do people do it? And maybe the answer is someplace on the list server. I just got to dig through it. But uh I just thought I thought it was interesting. Uh, and again, if it if it could help us at all to give us another tool with our goals of preserving old properties in in in this uh town,
2:02:55then maybe it's something that we just get smarter on and maybe be able to offer or at least talk about on our website or whatever.
2:03:01If you want to talk to the people that have the restriction on their house in Russell's Mills, I give you their contact information.
2:03:09Actually, I would like to do that. I just just because I and they're not they didn't put the restriction on the owners before them.
2:03:15So they purchased the house with the restriction already on it.
2:03:20Yeah, I know that that uh that huge parcel of land on Smith Neck Road where the old big milk jug is.
2:03:28Yes, Salvador. That's a that's an APR that exact. And I thought, you know, that's nothing very little can be done there even though it seems great.
2:03:36No, you can farm it.
2:03:37You can farm it. Right. Right. I guess so. It's got to be a farm. He's still selling it for like a couple of million dollars.
2:03:43I don't know what the price is, but it's a but there's a restriction on it. You could So, for example, a builder couldn't go in there and say, "I want to build a big development there. It's got to be farmed."
2:03:51Farmed.
2:03:52So, yeah, it's part of the restriction.
2:03:53Anyway, so um guys, I don't really have a lot more. Um and you keep going. It's unbelievable. I'm I'm watching. You two guys should be given an award. Uh, and I'm learning so much from going back and forth. So, I got one question.
2:04:16Yes. Yeah, sure.
2:04:18So, I want to give you a word.
2:04:19It's a short one.
2:04:21Yeah.
2:04:23The LHD the the signage for the Do you want me to donate the green pipes? I can get it. Um I can buy those stakes at the um a donation of um the the holders for the signs. Well, so so the one that we got from for for paid um it uses um 4x4 um pressuret treated uh uh posts. Okay. So I've already I've already got some of those.
2:04:56I just have a bunch lying around from a fence I built. So, when the ground is not frozen anymore in the springtime, I'll put that up. Uh, but and I think that the way the sign is designed that um you know, Linda put me on to those nice folks over there at what's it called?
2:05:11Signature sign.
2:05:12Oh, yeah. Nice looking sign for not a lot of money. Um, the way it's designed, it's got clips on the side that are really designed for that kind of post.
2:05:20So, I think it's rather than one in the middle, it's one on each side. So, it's big. Now, do once we put the new looking sign, are we going to have to do all the signs of the same?
2:05:30Well, we don't have to do anything.
2:05:31There are any other signs, Phil?
2:05:33It's just a matter of whether we as a group had the appetite to do to put out more of those signs. And I don't think we really, you know, said yay or nay on that one way or the other. And it's not really maybe important, but um but we don't have any more signs at this point.
2:05:48We just have the one that we we paid for and then the paid air business association paid for having it redone so it's on both sides and m making it look a little bit nicer. So that's now sitting propped up next to the side of my house waiting for the ground to thaw.
2:06:02So I'll get it. I know.
2:06:03Could be.
2:06:04Yeah, you're exactly. Yeah. Um so yeah, the Pan Business Association guy wrote to me about a month ago. I said, "Hey, I I'll I'll put this up." I said, "Have at it." and he came and got it and he brought it back later the day.
2:06:19He said I couldn't do it. I said, "Okay, let's wait till June or whatever."
2:06:24Um anyway, um yeah, so I don't have any other things to say other than I take a lot of notes. Um and what I'll do is I want to have uh I'll I'll put some agenda time on on the next meeting just to sort of wrap up the discuss the topics we went through and what some of the next steps are. I'll be very brief about that and uh and uh so we can have
2:06:47it as part of our you know meeting record and uh and then I'll have some things on here. I think we we can talk about creating some time to go through the records together as a group. I know s uh Chris you're going away for a couple weeks at least, right? Which is great.
2:07:02CPC if she's going to be away who's going to be covering her?
2:07:06It's okay. I have missed a meeting here and there so nobody but it's on it's always on if anybody wants to go to it. um and sort of, you know, be the fly in the wall. Um be a fly in the wall. You can't vote.
2:07:17Yeah, you you could you could do that or I could do that or I've gone to a couple uh before. Um they're long. It's not super exciting.
2:07:25It's going to be a long one because they are reviewing all the applications that are coming in for the next round of funding.
2:07:32Right. And I know they're doing Yeah.
2:07:34For example, the uh DCTV building. Um so, but it's a good good question. U so anyway, that's and our next meeting is Monday. Is that this coming Monday? Yes, it's Monday.
2:07:43All right, good.
2:07:43Sunday. Monday.
2:07:44Okay, so I I think I promised a working lunch with food.
2:07:47Yeah, you owe us some pizza.
2:07:50And I, you know, I was gonna I was going to do that. I really was. Then then Pharmacist wouldn't deliver and then also now we're getting out in two hours or so. So anyway, thank you very much.
2:08:00Are we getting credit for this three-hour joint?
2:08:02Yes, you are. I'm going to give you credit personally. Absolutely. Phil, credit where?
2:08:07In the credit book. I got a book I give credit, you know. Should we all have You're getting a gold star, Phil.
2:08:12Wait, really? I got a gold star today.
2:08:15As a teacher, we should have books like yours so we can write down uh thumbnotes and stuff and then at the end of the day, we give you our books and then you correct them and make Oh, I I wouldn't do that. I'm not fit to do that.
2:08:30I I didn't know. Were you taking notes?
2:08:32I mean, I took I took notes and also being recorded. Um, so I think what I will do is I will go through uh my notes and such and I'll make a a a transcript of sorts just with bullet points and I'll give to you for your approval or write up or formatting or whatever and um then we could just submit it.
2:08:53I just wanted to make a motion to adjurnn.
2:08:56Oh, good idea.
2:08:57Second the motion to adjourn.
2:09:00Okay, done.
2:09:03All in favor? Hi.
2:09:04All right.
2:09:05Okay. Again, thank you all for coming in.