Planning Board Meeting December 15, 2025

All right. Good evening everyone. This is the scheduled special meeting of December 15, 2025 for the Dartmouth Planning Board as it relates to possible overlay districts, changes to existing zoning bylaws, etc. I'll begin with a roll call vote. Margaret here. Lori Miller, present.

Nicholas Cyclopedis, present.

We're going to start off with administrative items. And actually, I'm going to pause for a minute. We talked about going out of order. Do we want to do that or do we want to stick with it?

Did we um It's It's totally up to you. You I would go out of order that way.

Hopefully, when Kevin comes, we can get right into the Yeah. Can we go to number Can we go to number four? Yeah. So, we're going to go out of order, ladies and gentlemen.

We're going to go down to for your information, old business, new business.

Specifically, we're going to let Dan talk about incoming zoning board applications ZAV25-14.

And then for tonight's meeting, because we met a week ago, and we are meeting again next week, the subsequent items under for your information, old business, new business will be tabled to the next meeting. So, Dan, go ahead if you don't mind.

Sure. So, we we had um one application for our review. Um it's to the zoning board of appeals zav 2514.

It's for um state road. The applicant was Michael McVey. Um this is for the proposed Audi Volkswagen dealership site um for rough location. It is just west of the Walmart site. They're asking for parking relief um from a front yard setback. Um, from my standpoint, I would just typically make the comments going on each site plan review. Um, and the way it's proposed now, it would need a

special permit for reduction in parking.

So, those would be my comments to to give to the zoning board, unless any board members have any additional or different they would like me to add to that.

Sounds good.

I think that's fine. I looked at the plans.

Yeah.

Yeah. And likewise.

Yeah. So, it'll be a good fit there.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we had a we had a preliminary meeting with them, kind of went over what they need to be done and I think it'll be a good site.

All right. So, as it relates to that item, you'll proceed accordingly, right?

Yes.

Excellent.

Do you want to take care of correspondence?

I do. We'll just work back for a moment.

So, uh correspondence.

Um, so just the I got to go out of order.

Uh we have a we have a letter from the planning board of of Freetown for legal notice and um a notification from the town of Westport. Um unless any board members have any um comments to make. Um we there was a zoning workshop letter that was included with that. I think we should loop that into to one as we're talking about it. We can do that. But if for the town of Freetown and town of

Westport. Um if no comments from from board members and I would just recommend to acknowledge and file.

So moved.

Motion made by Lorie Miller.

Second.

Second by Margaret to acknowledge and file correspondence. Lori Miller.

Yes.

Margaret.

Yes.

Nick Cyclopis. Yes.

Uh do you want to go to site plan review or do you want to wait till we have people with that? Um, why don't we just uh have we have we have we I know we spoke with Helio about I don't know if we ever spoke one-on-one with Kevin about it.

I don't believe so.

Okay. Yeah, we might want to wait.

Why don't I um take a moment since we're trying to buy a few minutes in case an additional member is able to join us due the parking constraints outside. Folks, I'd like to read in what one of the board members, Helio Rosa, would like to share as it relates tonight's subject matter and what we've been working on.

So again, um this is Helio Ros's statement um as it relates to tonight's meeting. Nick, I apologize again for not being able to make tonight's meeting.

Unfortunately, due a family commitment, my presence today cannot happen. I would like to, however, to state my thoughts at this stage so that the board can understand my continued support for our efforts to make Dartmouth more accessible, sustainable for the future, and make it so that our kids and grandkids could make Dartmouth their home as we have with developer land at a high premium. I reiterate two important

options that we should continue to pursue and craft that will allow Dartmouth to succeed and breathe while maintaining its unmistakable charm while not shutting out future generations nor turn it into another urban center.

Overlay districts in 40 Y overlay districts. This option builds upon existing denser areas that can provide opportunity to better use existing underutilized land and incentivize developers to incorporate housing into projects that make it more economically advantageous. A mixeduse development and is not uncommon and just as critically uses what we have air above singlestory commercial versus what is less supply

land. I believe there's a good consensus on the board for this and I support this work. That was in regard to overlay districts. In regard to 40 Y, our younger generation as well as our retiring generation are increasingly challenged to afford housing in town. 40 Y is a legal law that can make it more affordable to construct smaller, denser housing. Just as importantly, it gives

Dartmouth control of development and not risk what essentially becomes a hostile development such as a 40B where the town has far less control. Let's be proactive instead of lamenting.

I'd also like to advocate that the 10% limit in the aquafer areas be further reviewed. The 10% limit is a helpful prospective limit that protects the aquifer from overdevelopment.

However, I advocate for an option that there be an alternative. We can keep the 10% limit and provide and or which is by engineering analysis that dictates that some development may exceed 10% if the project can be engineered to protect the aquifer while allowing for greater than 10%. This approach may also allow for increased housing where realistically none can be considered today. Best Helio

So, that was Heal Your Rose's perspective on what we have before us.

Can I get a copy of that?

I will. I'll email this to each of us.

Yeah. To each of the members.

So, you want to give it to us, too, yet?

Yeah. Yeah. I'll email I'll get it to everyone. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Because I can't print email.

Okay.

Yet.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Can't figure out.

So, I'll just It's not working.

Email it to you. You'll make sure the board members get a copy at the [clears throat] next meeting.

Y um email me.

Okay.

I get emails.

I get emails, but I can't print them yet. It It's driving me insane.

No worries. So, with that said, and based on the fact that we've covered item number three and four, uh to the people listening, this was intended and unfortunately has compromised some at the moment, but we do have three board members here. This was intended to be a continuation of our collaborative effort to define perhaps what a 40 wy would look like in the town of Dartmouth and also take into consideration

if an increased density overlay would be necessary.

And I think the answer to that from my perspective is directly dependent upon how broad or not we define the 40B.

And just to share with the people of the town, we've each spent some time in the planning board office with both of these gentlemen and these maps that you see before us. And there was a lot of common ground between us board members and where we thought the B should be applied in scope of increased density. Excuse me. I'm sorry, the Y. where the Y should be applied in scope of increased density. Um

would you like to share for a moment how the Y would be an easy transition from current zoning and why? No pun intended and why. Do do you want to just give them a a quick Sure. Well, some of the areas we looked at, general residence areas, general abuing general business areas, those are currently 15,000 square foot per buildable lot right now. 40y, we're still waiting for the final regulations.

We're hoping to have those early fall.

Obviously, we're past early fall, but these things typically take longer than anybody anticipates. Um, so with the 40y you can do density at a minimum of one unit per 10,000. So it's not a big leap forward in the density requirements, but it allows options. We can also go smaller than that if we want to. We could do one per 7500, but at a mid at a minimum, it's going to be the one per

10,000 by the latest draft regulations, like I said, until we have the final.

I'm hesitant to say specifically what we can do. Um, by the time we got to these meetings, we were hoping we'd have the final ones to be able to discuss. Um, but at this time, we we we don't have the final, but that's that's the benefit of that. After a certain number of units, you you have to have an inclusionary component where there has to be something affordable. Um, but it,

like I said again, by the latest draft, so if you only want to do, you know, four units, you you wouldn't have to have an affordable component at a minimum. We could always make it. So, you always do, but at a minimum, it hits a certain threshold before you have to do that. Um, what is the minimum?

Um, I have it in my room.

That's all right. Okay.

I forgot the number off the top of my head. Um, I don't know. I'll I'll let you know. Do I have it still?

What was the question?

What is the minimum?

I think they put it in the other minimum what?

Um when you need uh when you need the 40 Y um inclusionary I want to say I want to say it was 10 or 12.

I thought it was 10. Dan, I thought that's what you said.

Yeah, I got in the other folder.

Although I I can get that.

I think it's 10. I think I just have discussing one time. Yeah, I just have it with my notes for for that specific specific case.

I have a question along with this. We have especially in the Blisscon area, we have a lot of lots that can't be built on because the president's oing doesn't allow it, but yet all the other lots around them are that size because [clears throat] this was, you know, the 50s.

That's another thing to look at. Opening up those areas where there are small lots and there's a lot next to them that can't be built on. Opening up those house those lots to be built on too, right? And that could and that could be the effect [clears throat] of like we we highlighted that area. Something that isn't economically feasible because you can only build one house, right?

But if you could get even if it was two or three, it would make sense. Um, so like I said, once we get the final regulations, then we can fine-tune.

But couldn't we do this on our own also to open up some of those areas? Because there's only one lot.

There's not enough to build four or five homes. You've only can put one lot on it.

One house.

One house on it. And there's a lot of those lots across this this town.

I want to Can I chime in on this for a moment? I one of the discussions I had um with both of them was that the Y definition may satisfy us to some degree but there may be some gaps because I'm already I already have gaps in my mind and what I was specific about was the Bliss corner district and what the Y does to it and I think that

and I want to be transparent here I will not benefit from what I'm about to describe at all. But when you take into account that we're trying to solve a housing need, when you take into account we're looking for affordable units, when you take into account that Mr. Carney is doing a phenomenal job on Dartmouth Street and transitioning that part of town tremendously, and then you take

into account parts of the Bliss Corner district like Center Street, Roger Street, Potter Street and other adjacent streets are nearby. They have postage stamp lot, 972 ft house. Postage stamp lot, three family house, two family house, single family. Again, my point to them was perhaps it's a separate overlay and perhaps Bliss Corner is not the only district that has that landscape, if you would. But shouldn't we make

consideration in that situation where those singles can become doubles or two or three families as and we make an exception because the lot's undersized and it doesn't comply with what we know to date and the exception is if they want to expand upon it they're going to be affordable units. So now we're giving the development opportunity to the property owner and if he or she does develop the property further, we

automatically know that we're contributing to our need for affordable numbers.

I would say yes, but I'm going to say one thing because this is a troublemaking thing. Okay. Uh with the small lots, you have to be careful because you have parted street and those you have to consider parking. Rebecca's got a terrible problem now with parking because of all the affordable housing they're putting in.

Sure.

And if you live on Potter Street, you shouldn't have to park on Dan Street, okay, to get to get into your unit. So, we have to be careful when we do that. I I'm fine for these small lots as Li said that nobody's been able to use. But then we're going to have to say if you have a 9,000 square foot lot, this is the size you can put on there.

Mhm.

And you need to have parking off street parking.

Sure.

Because I don't want Dartmouth to become New Buffett.

Sure. I don't disagree with that.

Okay.

Yeah. I don't disagree with that at all.

That's a good point.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. I I don't disagree with that. I think it's a great point. Crazy in the buffet over parking.

They also having trouble because they were designated NBTA community. Exactly.

But you can't require parking on which is you cannot require parking. But if you look at most people are taking the train live No, they're not. Yeah. If you look at a lot of those homes in those areas, they all most of them do have like a onecar garage and they do off street parking now. So you they can continue building that way. I mean, they're not going to build one of these McMansions. They're

going to build a normal three-bedroom house. No, you know what I'm saying. But no but um Nick mentioned maybe a two or three family. So if you put us on a small lot, you put a a three family, you get six cars.

No, I I think you have to have off- streetet parking. If if you don't have the room for the off streetet parking, then you can't get your third unit.

Well, you have you Well, you have to have off- streetet parking, but you have to have parking on the property, too.

You really really should have a driveway. And even if you don't have a garage, you have a driveway and you park one or two cars, you know, like for example, like in our the Bliss Corner mixed use, they have provisions that however much frontage you have, you can get a reduction in parking. So if you had I forget what the number was, every 17 feet of of frontage, you get a reduction

of one parking space. So if you had 170 ft of frontage, you could reduce your parking by 10 spaces. So you have that off- streetet parking option. So, we could work something in like that.

I think something like that would be very good. Okay. Because there are these small little lots in town that nobody's been able to use. You know, a lot of them are 56,000 square feet, but a lot of them are also the same size as the house on this side and the house on this side. They have 10,000. They have 10,000. Here's an 11,000. And they can't build on it. They do they do have

um a provision in the governor's housing that came out this this early this year that it was um kind of like I forget what the term they use but it's basically anti- merger laws. So if you had a lot that was 10,75 ft of frontage you could build a house but it has to be at that affordable criteria no more than 1850 square feet and there's a few other ones. So, they

do have that that helps try to open up some some housing opportunities, but there's been some new stuff on the ADU.

They're working on a contest to um have people submit a a plan for an ADU unit that would then be accepted by the HLC and anybody could just go and get those plans off the website and submit them to the town to try to see who's going to pay for building it though.

Yeah, exactly. Well, they they they're doing they're they're setting up funding accounts for that. So, we'll see what comes out of it.

We'll see what comes out of it.

You know, it's like anything, right? It sounds good, but then you got to figure out how to pay for it.

A lot of people had good ideas. Oh, this would be great for my, you know, my my mother who's, you know, elderly or my son who's just graduating, can't afford, but it's still going to cost you $300,000 and it's on your lot. So, they can't get a mortgage for it because it's on your lot. So everything's got its little Yeah. Your friend in Haven was going to build one. She did just It's just not

going to work. I mean, she can build it.

She's got the plans. It's it's she can do it. No problem.

And she looked at the dollar and she says, "No, we're going to put an addition on the house. It's cheaper."

So, she's putting an addition on the house, which will give her her bedroom, her living room, a little kitchen.

I think I think that's where you're going to see [clears throat] more of the But, you know, it's really in a way unfair. Um, and I know a lot of people here don't don't like these because you twoacre zoning there.

Okay. Right.

But a lot of that twoacre zoning is septic system. So you can't, you know, but again but again most Sorry to interrupt you for a fourbedroom all you need is an acre.

Right. But I'm I'm talking about now you know the zoning out there was two acres.

No, but the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of those people, all those people, and even in North Dartmouth septic, so you you are limited because if you have a three-bedroom house and you have a three uh a septic for three, how are you going to put a little ADU there? Even if you wanted to, I would love to put one in.

You got to do septic expansion. If you got wetland resource areas, you got to you got to file wetland permit. Get to 300, go to four.

Yeah, you could be doing 100 grand in sight work without absolutely much effort. How can you do it?

I I hear you. [snorts] You know, I don't know if any So, you're going to see more of them be, you know, attached a room over a garage that you convert. I think that's more what you're going to see on that.

Yeah. But even then, if you put a bedroom in there and a bathroom on septic, you're still going to have a problem with the septic.

Yep.

So, that kind of screws that up.

Yep.

And it's too bad because all those lots are big enough to do it.

Yeah.

What What's the um I know it's only three of us, but do we and please help me with this. Is this Bliss corner and this small lot and this possible additional units going above and achieving some affordable numbers out of that that district. Is that language that we may include in our why or are we getting away from and talking about a more specific overlay that's going to service that sector? I think if if it's

a decision of the board to take the next step once we get the final Y do a breakdown of that area see what what parcels are vacant see which parcels might be able to support two three four unit expansions that would be the next step I think and it's not just there right so um I believe we have some multifamilies um across the street from the mall behind Gumbos right that's a very similar

sector of town in terms of lot size.

Yeah. Basically, anything that's yellow on that on the the correct map, right? That that I think are areas that we cannot neglect when it comes down to perhaps giving owners an opportunity to match what's adjacent to them if we the town are picking up affordable units and parking is being provided as well. It meets the needs. So, I I want to try and include that or at least the subject

if we shoot it down in the end, we shoot it down. But I don't want to not include it.

Well, also what about the town owned property?

Do we did we do we have a list of the town owned property on there? No.

Do we have a list of that though, Dan?

I don't know.

Could we get a list of that?

I would think that's something we we could get.

The assessor can give us a list of town owned properties.

Pretty sure.

I think I have I think I created a map of that, but it's probably a little outdated. It was probably two years ago, my first six months or so.

I think you did. I believe that's that's ringing a bell. Um, so it might be slightly outdated, but I could send that out just for a general idea.

Yeah, I'd like to I'd like to see what the I'll try to polish it up, too. Maybe I can get maybe I can quickly get the the newest.

You should be able to get it right from the assessor.

Okay.

You should just call down there and get it.

Sounds good.

That'll be good because it kind of coincides with the housing production plan stuff and I spoke briefly with the town administrator about potential lots and I know he was interested in knowing that. So, I think that'd be good to to see.

Consider it done.

Thank you.

You got it.

Sorry, I'm just looking at something.

Um, I don't know how how much further we want to go without without the other two members here, but the plan that was supposed to be ready in the fall is hoping to be ready after the new year.

We checked and they hadn't given an update. No, no.

We're not sure.

I can reach out and send an email and see when if they have any kind of time frame.

So, this is this is the current draft though correct?

Well, that that's something different.

That's our housing production plan, right? For us.

So, so this is something.

So, um I mean it's 7:30, so I'm going probably assume that this entirety for tonight. Um, so I had asked, so Serpent is in the process of preparing the housing production plan. They they're hoping to have their draft by the end of the year. I reached out to the to the person there that's preparing it just to get the draft goals so at least I could have it for the board tonight so um she

was kind enough to to send that over so we can kind of see what they were looking at to try to align with with the planning board's goals. Um, and I think a lot of them, you know, do do align with that with those items.

But Dan, what weren't there nine? I only see eight here.

There were nine, but I I I thought of and I thought of that when I was reading it and I think they merged them because I think they merged eight and nine because I want to say nine and I we'll we'll verify this once we get it.

I want to say nine was about the stateowned land. That was a low priority. And if you read number eight, it mentions to create SHI eligible units on town and state owned land. So I think those those eight and nine from that discussion was merged. I'm not 100.

Yes, me too. That's what I thought cuz I was like, you know, doing one of these, am I missing one?

But I think that I think that was the case.

Um then they're broken into, you know, if you look at the the first sheet, high priority, medium priority, because I think that one was going to be the one and only low priority one and there are no low priority ones.

No, just medium. Yes. Um so that kind of gives a gauge on um where the consensus around town [clears throat] is is looking. Um so we can have that as a tool for our arguments on what we feel is the best way to go forward. Um and a lot of these are in there. One thing I did notice too um on number two when it said existing 40ard district, I believe we talked

about creating a new 40 district. So that's something that I will have to talk about. So basically they're looking to have this done for the for the end of the year. At that point hopefully in January we can schedule to have them come before the planning board to discuss the final housing production plan. Planning board can discuss it, see if there's anything that needs to be tweaked or or any modifications.

and they will also go to the select board and then either that night or at a future meeting the the board would then vote to adopt the new housing production plan and then that would give us another guideline for [clears throat] like I said how to how to proceed with our housing options. Um looking at it, it seems like it's most of the priorities that that the board is in align with in alignment with. So I

think it's we're off to a to a good start on that end. um be nice to have everybody here when we make those calls. But um and then at that point from from staff standpoint like like you mentioned about about the if we decide you know 40 we want to look in the bliss corner area then we can start you know really hammering home how we want to present that get it ready for

for presentation regulation review and be able to get all the questions going.

I heard that there's a another apartment complex going up on Dartmouth Street.

On Darm Street?

Yes, there is. It It hasn't come be It hasn't been finalized, Jim.

Yeah, but it's going to be over the 55.

Yeah, we'll have to discuss it after because right now it's only it's hearsay, so I don't want to say anything. But yeah, there is uh so that you know that's going to be it won't I don't think it's going to be as large as uh what's going on now, but it's okay.

Okay.

All right.

Can we just apprise um those who may be watching about the maps and and how we landed? We basically um we talked about the Bliss Corner District being included in the 40 Y just to the south of the mall across from Route 6 that residential area. It's got a similar um landscape as Bliss Corner in terms of a few multifamily, single families and smaller um on smaller lots. Uh we got the route six corridor including fonts

corner road and then we also have what's known as light industrial if I'm correct right light industrial what guys I think it's limited limited sorry limited industrial so um and that is north of the route 6 fon corner mall area just shy of the airport going westerly along the town's border. So those are the areas that we the board have mutually agreed upon that this 40y when developed will try to be applied to

to give everybody an idea. And then part of this meeting and some of the smaller pieces we're talking about, excuse me, like Bliss Corner and just west of the mall is to find pockets of town where there might be small lots or within a small area multifamilies as well as single families whereby those single families should be granted or given an opportunity to become a multifamily in

exchange for affordability and units in town. So I think that kind of summarizes where we're at at this point. Correct. I believe so.

So in other words, if you have a s I want to make sure I understand you, Nick. Okay.

Yeah.

So if you have right now you have a uh a single family home in the Bliss corner area on a 10,000 foot lot and you want to make that a multif family, then you're saying you could essentially do that. I that's I'm hoping that's what you want that I'm hoping to make consideration for the person that owns the 972 square foot single family on a 9,000qt lot next to the three family on the

6,000 foot lot that that single family in exchange for affordability and units in town could apply and be granted for the opportunity to go up and provide units to us.

Okay. Now, when you say they're going to go up, I just want to make sure we all understand.

And this is early discussion, right? I haven't written this out. Yeah.

No, no. This is what we're doing.

So, if you say affordable, so that 972 square foot home is, let's say it's going to be uh two family.

Sure.

So, would that second use unit have to be affordable?

That's what I'm saying.

Okay. And who I guess this is an important thing. How are we going to determine what the affordability is of that unit?

That's a great question because one of my follow-up questions to this as far as affordable units in town and when these projects come before us, are they recorded? Are they deed affordable? Is a percent of the project recorded? Because a percent of a 272 unit a percent of that is very simple to be a percentage because the units are revolving, right? But in this case, would the second floor of hypothetically

three Roger Street, unit 2, be deed?

Yes.

Has to be.

Has to be.

If it's affordable, it has to be.

I agree.

And see, that go back going back to the ADUs.

That's why the ADUs have had trouble gaining traction to be affordable because it has to be a right affordable.

That's not it might be fine. Like I said, if I decide to have my my mother come over there, but down the road, well, with all due respect, like to that argument, the down the road thing is something I don't want to hear. We're taking your single family and we're telling you in a district where you haven't been able to expand upon it in the past 30 years, ever since the lots

merged or things that happened when I was a kid, you now have an opportunity to come and apply for a permit or or or the ability to add a unit above it. and these are the guidelines by which we're going to hold you to in exchange for that.

We'd have we'd have to really get a a good cost analysis on that because it's a it's a big difference between a market rate and an affordable unit and the construction cost is is tough to handle 100 units. Yeah, you can you can make it work, right?

Couple. So it's I don't you can work into this you can work into this an increase a percentage of increase because eventually those units are going to be sold. Okay.

Sharon Mass does something for older people with taxes and I'm wondering if we can't do the same thing with affordability. In other words, when they build that unit on that 972 and they put a second floor, the second floor is not going to be 972 square feet. Okay. Maybe it's going to be it's going to lose two stairwells, the front and back stairwell. So, it's going to give up at least 36 and 36.

It's going to lose 70 80 feet minimum.

I was thinking it might be like 800.

Okay. 850. And so say for five years that afford afford that unit affordability has to be what affordable units would be. But then after five years maybe the landlord gets an opportunity to increase that by 3 or 4%.

You know after five years or 6%.

Yeah. I don't know what I don't know what the affordable rate is tied to.

Right. Right. That's what we have to find out.

They can do it now.

They can do it now. they can do it now because if you have a I'm assuming a place that's a like for example a 40B apartment complex I'm I'm assuming whoever the the leasing agent keeps those records each year what the rate will be what the new incomes will be yeah like the houses on Sloum Road there's affordable units in there which ones on Sloum Road near Berggo near you have affordable housing back in

there they're mixed in that um when they sell they have to sell as affordable because they are deed restricted to stay affordable forever and ever and a day.

Um, so they get deed restricted and there's a those were done in perpetuity.

Yeah, I wasn't on the board when those were done, but I'm pretty sure they were because I know someone was complaining.

So um were they done in perpetuity?

I don't know.

I'm under the impression I think anything if we whatever we do, if we do do some component, it should be Yes. Absolutely. forever and a day.

Yes, that's important.

Yeah, like I said, I think it would, you know, it have have to be a pretty good market analysis and a cost feasibility study to see what could actually happen.

Yeah, I think that's an important aspect in whatever we do. We should have a stakeholders component of, you know, getting some some people in town that are going to build these projects, whatever they end up being, to get their input. I think I've said before it does it does this board and this town no good for us to come up with regulations that nobody can afford to build what we're proposing. So I think

whatever we do in the process there should be a stakeholders meeting of some sort.

Should we do that fairly soon before we continue with this? I mean I think so do it fairly I mean and there's enough of them in town. Yeah, we have we have a few people um in mind to reach out to um once we have a direction to go to to start getting a feel for things and um see what works. So as soon as we you know ready to take the next step I think

that would trigger going forward. Same thing with haven't talked about it yet but with with the zone 3 aquifer I think it's important. Oh, we got to do that soon internally internally in the town hall to get people together, find out, you know, what what the different options are, what the things are. And again, the same thing.

Um, and again, I have to let the people have to understand um we have to educate them that we have three zones in this town, right?

One, two, and three. We are the only town, right?

Probably in the whole country, but at least in the state, but probably in the whole country that has a zone three.

Oh, yeah. Zone one, zone two, they're regulated by state regulation.

Exactly. Zone three was just something that was [clears throat] added. Um, it's nice. Let's do it.

I know. I It's not required.

Yeah. I've I've gotten a little bit of information, you know, I tried to get some history on this and there was talk about potential well sites in within this to to protect contributing areas.

But that would have been So, I think it's important to get it on on the record for why these things came into I mean, there's a zone three around a Pontaganza Bay. I mean, most of that water is brackish water. I'm not quite sure where the zone 3 thought process was on that. I'm sure there was one. I just need to find out where it came from.

But even if the town does put a well in into a zone three, it automatically becomes either a one or a two, right?

I mean, it's right.

You don't But the thought process is, you know, you're trying to protect the contributing area.

But do you know how much wetlands this town has?

Oh, tremendous. If really I do.

Okay. So do I because I'm all It's between between surface between surface water roadways existing things.

If you took what 10% of the entirety of zone 3 did you probably would well I know most people would probably be shocked but you'd find out there's a lot more that could be done than what it has what is being done. But that's why we've got to change it to you know I like 30%. I think 30%'s a good a good good figure. and you know um don't

do away with it but no don't do away with it keep the same restrictions you know you don't want you don't you don't want a fuel storage facility you don't want um the uses there right the uses have to stay let's let's see what there's different technologies now than there were 20 30 years ago Mr. and Mrs. Jones but build a house in that zone three and they only can 10% they can't put

I mean with the 80,000 square foot lots yeah you can do it but again again again it sounds like a lot right but when you're going to if you wanted to put an ADU you'd probably be pretty close to hitting the number well a lot of a lot of the land now is got so much wetlands with it well they don't count they they have no stipulation on the wetlands you could

have 64,000 wetland and it's still 10% of the overall area I'm saying a lot of the lots will pull up.

I mean, between the wetlands in the town, between DNRT and all the religious um buildings, all the town owned buildings, there's really not a tremendous amount of land that's actually buildable in this town. There really isn't. No, you take away all of that and there's not much [clears throat] left.

Like I said, between roadway infrastructure, surface waters, Yeah. freshwater wetlands. It's really a lot less than than most people think for future development.

Yeah.

I got a feeling you just drove the market up 15% by tomorrow morning.

We just watched Wall Street last night.

That's what's going on here.

I mean you in in order to do things people need to understand why this needs this type of stuff needs to be done. I mean it needs to be done for two reason. One reason that's very important that people don't understand is that how you you can increase your tax rate um two and a half%. It's two and a half in this state in state. You can't go over that.

So eventually you're going to get to the point where there's no new growth. You can increase your you can use your new growth to increase but you can't go above two and a half on that new growth the next year. So eventually if there's no new growth you have no tax increase in order to maintain the town. You know, it's costing more than two and a half a year to maintain this town. And

yeah, then all they're gonna do is tell you that your excise tax is gonna go up.

Yeah, but you can vote on the two and a half. Lexington just did. I believe Lexington just changed it.

Really?

I think so. I think that's what I read.

Someone Yeah, someone did change it. I don't remember who it was.

Yes, I think it was Lexington country.

They changed it. Okay. Um, [clears throat] other towns voted it down. Fair Haven tried to change it.

They couldn't change it. The town at town meeting, they said, "No, we're sticking to two and a half."

I think Dartmouth wouldn't pass it either person.

Oh, I hope not.

Yeah, I don't think I mean, but so you have to find another override votes. I mean, how much traction has an override vote ever received?

So, you have to find some way to um support the town, but you don't want to go crazy. Mhm.

You want to go slow and even and put it, you know, there's a bus line, so try and put some of the stuff where the bus line is because Well, that's that's the case. If you if you're going to have limited parking, there has to be alternate means of of travel.

And if you look at the, let's call it, younger working generation, they're looking for more.

They don't want cars, pedestrians. Yeah.

Yeah. my granddaughter. Yeah. She just bought they want to be able to walk to go to a store. They want to be able to walk to go to a restaurant.

They they that's that's just the current model. They when you see across the country areas that are high development, it's it's a lot of convenience built into it. Multi-use, mixeduse areas.

Well, when you look on certain real estate sites, that's one of the things pops right up. Walkability.

Yeah. Yeah. They have they have ratings, right? You get rated right on But you got a you got a a walkability rating and a bike Yeah.

rating.

Well, in all fairness and in all reality, the fact that we're talking about Bliss Corner andor just west of the mall on the west side of Route 6 and we're including them. That's not where the impact's going to come from. The impact's going to come from seeing 300 units above the mall, from seeing 160 units above Target, from seeing some of the other underser plazas become mixed use, right?

From seeing some of the pad sites that could be built that are not built be built. I mean, that's where the impact's going to be made, right? And that's our that's our long-term hope. Um my fear of an area like Bliss Corner or the other mixed that I'm that we're describing is that if we don't include them, you have an amazing job by Mr. Carney up the street and then you have what we're

talking about at Bliss Corner. If we don't include them in a world of opportunity to some degree, they're going to drastically age out in comparison to just what's up the street.

So why not give them an opportunity to repurpose a little bit and develop and resside and look new and become part of perhaps a newer bigger and better picture that we're trying to paint. That that's my reason already allows that I think because I know when we redid Blissconor we allowed um the new zoning in Blisscon.

Yes.

Allows what?

It allows mixed use. It allows mixed use, but I think it's just the one residence per um no because it talks about the apartments above being a certain square footage etc. etc.

I don't I don't know if it's multi.

Yeah.

I don't think it allows to take a single family on the postage stamp lot and put a second unit or third unit.

I don't think it allows that.

I have it. You have I Yeah, Russ is looking it up right now.

But but the the thing is a business department. Yeah, they can business.

Business I mean looking at the same thing. Yeah.

Yeah.

But how many? It's just one unit over a business.

It depends on the size of the building.

Yep. A business apartment is defined as a residential unit available for use by one family which is located in a building being used for business purposes such as but not limited to retail office recreational restaurant, or limited production use.

One business apartment is automatically allowed by right per lot. Up to two additional apartments are allowed by right, up to three total per lot, so long as the total square footage of all apartment housing shall not exceed the total square footage of all business uses on the lot.

Right? Does that make sense?

Yes, it it does. But it does, but it that still has to have that business.

Yeah, that limits it.

Yeah. I mean, you couldn't have just No.

I mean, residential, which we're in the Bliss corner district, we're probably I'm just guessing, but we're probably talking about less than 30 businesses that might capitalize with putting something over it, but yet we're probably talking about 300 parcels of land that might benefit from what we're describing.

Since that was adopted, how many people have taken advantage of that?

Not many. You can't unless you have a business, right?

Right. Unless you're first. Yeah. So, so it would almost be like combining the allowed use of that but in like a general business for example where there's more businesses, more uh diversity in the lot sizes and whatnot to almost allow a similar concept in both districts. Am I understanding you correctly in that?

I'm really not implying the word business to my thought at all.

Strictly I'm looking strictly res I'm looking at residential units that have similar size lots and some single family.

You're looking for like a bonus unit.

Some No, I'm looking to legitimize the fact that some single family units in this district have slightly larger lots than the multifamily adjacent to it. And based on the need for affordability and units in this town and everything we've cried for about keeping people here and giving them an opportunity, I think a great way to do so is to give these property owners the option to put one or

two units above their home. Not to exceed the height restrictions. Not, you know, we'll we'll define it, but looking for ways to increase the number direct number, not percentage, direct number of affordable units. So any and all that we described or that I'm trying to describe. Okay.

These would come before us and be deeded as affordable.

Understood.

So you're not going to come to me with the single family that's next to the three family with plans to put unit two and unit three and neither of them or only one of them are affordable. They're both going to be deemed affordable.

Yeah. And that's may not sound it may not sound perfect, but then the land owners within these districts could not come to us or run into us and say, you know, my hands are tied in this town. They've been tied for 50 years. I still don't have an option. No, you do have an option. And the option is to do A and B, the town's going to benefit from it as well.

Well, a second unit could always be just just an ADU if you're doing a second. So, really only impact if you were looking for the third.

Well, the whole thing is um you really got to think this out because if you're going to put a three family, if you're going to put two more units above that single family, okay, and let's say that the person that owns that 975 square foot, let's let's say that that is a couple that's been there for a while. It's an older couple.

So maybe if they build the three, they put two up two above that single. Maybe do both of them have to be affordable because you got to remember what it's going to cost them to do that.

That's that's my concern.

We can that's up for discussion, right?

I mean, it's we can absolutely discuss it because in all reality, even if we make one of two affordable, that's 50%.

It far exceeds the rest.

I'm happy with making one of the three affordable. Who determines who gets that affordable unit?

The town.

I believe it's the board of selectment.

The board of select will take it out of a out of the lottery.

A lottery. That's what we did before. A lottery.

A lottery. And people who want people who want it, right?

Put their name in.

Right.

And then they're literally drawn.

That's right. We've done that before.

Meeting the meeting the criteria.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. So if they put if they build a three unit in or uh then one of those units has to be affordable and the other one doesn't because of the price of lumber the price of that's why I I'd be curious to see if it's economically feasible to do that.

Yeah.

So that's why we have to talk to some contractor.

Yeah.

And it's very have them price out the unit. I mean because the affordable unit espec es especially for a rental is ex is much lower than probably you would think it could be. So, it really it really limits what you can spend.

What do you think? Well, I don't know this answer, so I'm just asking. What do you think an affordable unit would rip for?

I think the ones that came in for the 40bs, they were like around like 1,200, weren't they?

I was I was going to say $1,400.

Yeah, that would be it. $1,400.

Now, we have 1400 was for a twobedroom, right?

Yeah. That's going to be that's going to be extremely difficult because even if you I mean if we just used 800 square feet for for this purpose um it's going to cost you all of 200 250 for a very conservative unit you know V just simple unit right spec um that's a basic build 250 use a factor of seven on a 30-year note they're going to be at 14500 with

plus or minus a 7% % note for that unit and that's before that's just principal and interest that's before taxes and anything else so who knows maybe it's not feasible I just but maybe I don't know we'll have to like I said if if that's a road we want to go down then obviously we can spend some more time seeing how many parcels that might impact seeing what potentials could be um

because what we now what we could go after if we can't go after adding it up what we can go after is you have a lot which was taken away that you know the right. You have people that bought a double lot.

Double lot and now and now they can't use it.

Even with the anti-mergent laws, it's still too small, right? But now maybe we can go after that law and say, "Okay, you own the whole parcel. Do you want to put in affordable housing here? You can put an affordable house here." And that would probably sell better because now it's affordable house. It's deed restricted.

redeeed restricted and the town can make sure that it never sells for something above. But how do you control an apartment? How do you control rent in an apartment? Who who you have have to have a a rental agency.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. In an apartment building, they have a leasing agent that that has, you know, they owe their folder and they have this is what's affordable. This is what you can afford family of two, three, four, five. And you have they have they have somebody that's monitoring that. They're responsible for reporting to the state and having all that information.

What about um pre-builts? Because there's some nice pre-builts.

Still gets up there in price. That's that's But they are less a little less.

Yeah, they are a little less.

They are less, but I mean you save lot you save a lot of money when you put a pre-built home on a slab.

It's it's You do.

It's tremendously different.

Yes.

And there are some nice pre-builds because I've sold some. Yeah. You know, in Tottenham, there's a lot in Taton.

Okay.

We have We have some in Dartmouth that you would in an area that you would not believe right?

Our pre-builts.

Yes.

When we bought our house, we originally had gone we were looking at a pre-built.

We went to the factory to the manufacturer at the time. This this group was in New Hampshire and we took my father who was a contractor and [snorts] you know, she's doing one of these things, right?

[clears throat] you. It's it's it's like a train track.

It's it's right. It's it's it's really interesting to see. Well, I'm going to tell you now that place that house was built to withstand I swear an earthquake tornado because they got to transport it.

Sure.

There were more. My My father said, "I can't believe he said this is this house is better than any house some people are building." He was amazed. I think that goes into what we were talking about earlier with the um with the ADU winning uh house plans. Try to have something that's more of a a quick generic build that people can just pull off the website and say and everybody knows what this is going

to cost and there's I think the pre-builts I I think that would be you would save quite quite a bit of money with a pre-built. Okay.

I've seen them be delivered and put them together.

Yep. I have a friend who who brought one.

There's a couple in town that are in that are that are not in uh the Blisscon area. They're actually in the country and you would never know that they're pre-built. Never ever ever.

There's one off of um Bakerville Road.

There's one off of Reed Road.

Well, actually it's off of Russell Mills Road.

Yeah.

Bakerville restaurant. Never know it.

Yeah.

Again, I think it goes back to what we said. If whatever path we go, we want to get people involved.

Well, I I I personally would like to start with Route Six. And the only reason I'd like to start with Route Six is because there's a lot of people that not I'm not going to be upset with starting on Route Six.

Well, there's a lot of capital there, too, right? So, that would be, you know, it's and a part of it's going to come down to, you know, goal number one. We need to find out what we're doing with infrastructure and everything else, right?

That's that's another big concern.

capacities. A lot of the projects coming in for the use variances and the mixed use, the first question is are they capacity? Not necessarily in the lines, but in the lift stations and further down the road, pump stations. So that's um that's why that's number one on the list.

Why don't we um when would be a good time to bring in a contractor or two stakeholder just just to clarify some of what we're describing as it relates to cost analysis. Um our next week's meeting is a regular scheduled meeting. Do we foresee doing another one of these particular meetings in January? Because I I I think bringing somebody in in that capacity be better in this setting than a regular schedule

meeting, wouldn't it?

Yeah.

It has to be a schedule a special meeting.

Sure.

Yeah. And I think January the holidays now, right?

It's done.

So I I like I said, I I know there's people we want to reach out to. I know there's other people other people in town hall would. So that can be something that internally in the town hall can be discussed first and then right, you know, once we get the housing production plan, these some of these other things going, my guess is it sounds like January is right around the corner.

February.

So, it might be a little it might be a little too early to say January.

I hate to put it off that long cuz I'm just itching to get it sounds like you're putting it off long, but I mean ju just look I mean when's the last time we did one of these? It was September.

September went by quick.

It's it's it was it wasn't long.

No. But with that said, I don't and and again, we thought we were going to have all these extra tools at our disposal.

We don't have We don't have them yet.

I know that. But with that said, it doesn't preclude any of us having one onone with our contractor, right, relationships.

Yes. Which is why we've always put it on the agenda as discussion just in case something did come up. Sure.

We wouldn't have to wait till we did one of these. Sure.

Then we could bring it up at that meeting.

Yeah. But to be fair, like I I don't think it would be wrong or bad of us to Hey, Chris, roughly 1,400 square foot slab. How much a number modular home plus or minus,400 ft just conceptually put it together, right? And then maybe we share it with two or three contractors, one each that we know, and we get some rough numbers. I mean, if somebody says 250 a square foot for a

spec unit and it ends up being 268 or 242 in the end, it doesn't change doesn't change our work.

That's up to the owner to figure out where he lands, right?

And then compare that to what the affordable rates.

Yeah, that's the point.

See if it's economically feasible that somebody want to do it, right?

They're turning around and making five grand on it, they're probably going to say it's not worth it.

So, we need to have that comparison.

Yeah. I think the only way that we could do this is if the town owned land was I I don't want to say given but leased maybe and a developer built it because that one of the major costs is land.

Okay. So if the land I think that could be something that the the gentleman that came and spoke to us where he got you know grant funding different programs where you could do something like that. I think that's where that would play in.

Like you said if the first if the first goal is hey let's look at route six let's start let's start reaching out to the stakeholders in that area. Let's start the communication with that but let's look into the specific mixed juice 40our other regulations. We we have in our office a a whole stack of different town regulations that we've gone through. So then we can start narrowing that down, start putting things

together.

Um [clears throat] well, I'd like to start with Route Six.

I'm good with that. I agree. I mean, that's that's where the greatest impact is going to be made for everybody, residents units taxes everything.

Right.

It's got the infrastructure. It's got the bus line. It's got It's got some big par It's got some big parcels still.

Yeah. And um you know Walmart across the country has housing above it.

Yeah.

I mean so we have some stakeholders that might be interested in doing it and that's not available so there'll be no need for them to even think about it right now.

Yeah. Right.

Um and some someone like Walmart. They got the parking. That's for sure. I went there the other day. It's Christmas.

People are supposed to be shopping.

Yeah.

And the parking lot's not full.

Well, you got you got you got you got [clears throat] delivery to your house.

I mean my street's covered with Amazon.

Oh god. Yes, you got order ahead of time and pickup so people in and out quicker. So all these different new shopping tendencies are are reducing the parking.

No, I was at Target Saturday and let me tell you, Target is Target's booming.

Well, no, they had they had the the the bus I bought. Yeah, they had the police department there and the bus was loaded and I was behind two a couple. I didn't know them unfortunately. They were buying for the police department because I guess the police department had money.

They spent $1,000. I was in line looking at their toys. Believe it. But you know, it's nice because those kids children should have a Christmas.

Yeah, of course. Of course.

But a lot of people were there. A lot of people were given a lot of stuff. But that parking lot lorry Yeah. was full.

But see, Walmart was really overbuilt parking. It was overbuilt.

I mean, they have a whole whole section in the back. They never use they never use never use it.

Although it's like we talking about site plan review these things were done in a different different era different time. Yeah.

Honestly that um I don't I don't like that configuration at all. You have their front door right on um you know as you approach par it's just their front door should have been in the middle of the storefront or on the further down because park you always want to park as close as possible.

Everyone's afraid to walk these days.

So, it would have pushed some of that traffic and now it's all jammed up where you're trying to get in and out and that's where everything's taken. So, I feel like the lot, the front door, and the access road were a little bit of a mistake in terms of volume of activity.

We could have dissipated the volume had that front door been pushed further down.

I was on the board when that was approved. I think we must have looked at 20 plans because of the slope of the property and on the sides.

I'm telling you, we we looked at plans like you couldn't believe.

Yeah, but the parking lot's level and the front of the building's level.

They weren't. They had to fill.

Oh, that's fine. But I'm just saying the resulting door where it is had it been 120 ft further down then the center of the parking distribution would have been 120 ft further down and the in and out and the access would have been a lot easier instead of getting jammed up cuz you get if I go in I on the root six area I go in I take a left I go all the way around

that way and park at the get I walk.

Yeah. I walk I don't look for the closest parking spot. I walk I and I usually try to park next to the carriage. Nice.

I walk the first the first space I find.

That's where I'm parking.

I have a quick question. when you say you'd like to start with Route 6 and I don't disagree with that conceptually.

My question is probably well it's for everybody as it relates to the why can we are we considering in this application are we considering dropping it on the route six and fonts corner corridor as phase one and get that through all of our work 9 months 12 months from now that's phase one and then later expand beyond it or are you implying discussion-wise in this meetings focus on route six

I'm talking my My own personal is in this meeting. Let's focus on route six, right?

Because first of all, we all got a letter from someone. Okay.

People are not they're going to be nervous about a 40 Y. You know, 40R 40 Y people are nervous about it.

Yes. We will have to market that as a starter.

Exactly. So we have to put it first someplace where they're not understood where it doesn't impact them as much to be quite blunt.

It is, you know, not in my backyard.

Yeah.

But we're dealing with business people on on Route Six.

Sure.

And business people, it's like you sell a house or you you sell a business.

Selling a business is much easier in the long run than selling a house. There's no sentimental value. So, if we go to Walmart and we say, "Hey, we're going to change the zoning. Are you interested in building above?" They're going to say yes, of course.

And if you go down to Shapiro and you go down to the next one, and you go down, they're all going to say yes. They're Look what's the North D Mall is doing now. It's really building different things. I mean, so I guess I guess my next question in in um preparing for this, would this be something we'd be looking more as an overlay or to work to change the general business zoning regulations?

I would say at this point I Well, you know what? Probably ch the easiest thing probably would be to change the zoning, but they're both they're both effective, right?

The same way.

Yeah. I mean, no matter which way you go, the result is the same if someone wants to do something.

So, isn't isn't an overlay just adding a complexity? I mean, if if if changing the zoning is possible and it and it achieves any and all that the overlay would achieve, wouldn't it be better that the zoning itself change change and be I think so.

I mean, it's just why add but I don't know because it has to go to the state has to go to the attorney general. Right.

So what's the easiest if we have if we have an affordable if we have an affordable component if we do 10% that changes what the approval rate needs to be as opposed to a twothirds vote at town meeting. It becomes a simple majority if there's an affordable component built in.

Okay. So you don't need the 2/3 you vote then we can do zoning. That's something we're going to do. But again, like% we talked about um if we are going to do a new 40R, then that would be an overlay and that gets you funding from the state. The town gets I guess it's a kickback, right? It gets a kickback for every unit that's sold.

So there are benefits in that regards to an overlay. And we really really really have to educate the people the difference between a 40R, a 40B and a 40 Y and how we have no control over a 40 40B right?

But we have a substantial control over a 40R and a 40 Y.

Right. We can we can set site plan requirements, right? We can, you know, set parking requirements, building requirements.

Yeah. So I mean that really has to get out there to the people because all they think of is a 40B and it's we have no control.

Yeah.

I mean I can guarantee I would hope with the s interrupt I would hope with the 40bs that are coming in. I would hope people can realize this isn't something the town necessarily wants to do 40Bs or wants to allow them in the density they are. But it got to the point where this was the developer's last resort for doing something with his property and it kind of comes out of our our

hands for what the what the requirements are.

Right.

So I'm not sure it's the last resort.

I'm not in their minds.

In their minds in [clears throat] their minds because honestly, right, there's a lot of money that's made in the 5B and we all know it. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

So like 15% profit.

Yeah. You know, so [snorts] I personally think that, you know, Westport now is in in in the throws of a 40B.

Oh, yeah.

Well, the good news is more people know where the 40B is today than they did six months ago.

Well, I'm going to say that a lot of people educated. I had asked our town planner to come and speak to a group that I have and everybody was very receptive. They asked a lot of good questions and you know they at first were the same thing. Why can't you stop it? Why can't we stop it?

And Dan explains you can't you can't stop it. Okay.

Certain things there's certain things you can ask for public safety. You know certain things that you want to be cognizant cognizant of but ultimately if the if the state determines there's a need for it they're going to supersede. the one in Westport, if they do it, there's talk about it now, they're putting in their own septic system sewer treatment plant.

And that's amazing to me because Westport has passed the new septic system laws, right?

And I think how we can partially how we can educate the town is we went before town meeting to get an overlay district on Route Six.

Yes. Mhm.

and town meeting. Uh, nope. It's because of a developer wants to come in. Nope. I don't want any property. I don't want them building there. I don't want anything there. Blah blah blah blah. The whole nine yards. They turned it down.

And to be quite honest with you, I turned around to the people around me and I said, "You have no idea what you have just done because now we're going to get a 40B and we're going to have no control over architectural design, over the number of units, over how the how it runs, over the roads, etc., etc. No. No. No. Now, you're never going to get anything built there now. And guess what? We now have

buildings. Well, they're still working on it because they did run into a problem. But we now have more buildings, less design, and I mean, and they're good people, don't get me wrong. The people who were building it are good people.

Oh, they they were willing to work with the town.

They were really willing to work with the town. They had come up with a nice development, and the town voted it down because they really did not understand a 40B is not what you want. So, I mean, we just have to push that and educate it.

And like we mentioned in a previous meeting, we looked at all the list of towns that are at um the 10% threshold and the pretty much the only way you get there is by approving 40bs.

Yeah.

So, I mean, it does it does do something for the town and the way the state looks at the needed housing, but it does limit what you what the town can say about it.

I had another question. Um, if they put in apartments, the whole whole thing is unit is as long as as they're mingled.

What are you guys talking about right now?

Apartments.

No. When you say if they put them in bodybu if you have four buildings on the property, you can't have one that's has affordable units in it, another one.

No, they have to lock. They have to be intermingled.

So, you can count all of them.

Count all of them. The interiors don't have to be the same.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

From the outside, it's going to look the same.

Now, the reason I'm asking is there may be another apartment building coming up along Route Six. And I'm trying to talk to the president doing affordable units.

We get them all counted.

I don't I don't know. I'd have to look to see if it counts if it's us doing the affordable or if it's just if the 40 if it's 40 B. That I don't know.

Oh, 100% sure.

I think an affordable unit is an affordable unit.

Yeah. I just don't know because there's 25% on a 40B.

So, I just don't want to say, "Oh, that yes, but I don't know the answer to that." I'd rather find out for sure.

While we're on the sub, while we're on this, I just want to make sure we did we did receive a letter um from a gentleman. He was actually here at our last meeting. Um he had to leave before he could speak. um he was hoping to be here tonight um to to provide comment but he was unable to attend. Um it's it's a lengthy letter.

Um so I just kind of wanted to just mention a few of the highlights and um if anybody in the audience would like to see it in its entirety. It is on file at the um planning department here in town hall. Um this was from Mr. Frank Le.

There was a letter sent to the the planning department on December 1st. Um he just wanted to mention he did attend the first workshop and would like to be um involved in the in the process. Um just to highlight like I said a couple of his questions. Um any potential starter home 40y increased density zoning overlay should not extend north beyond the behavioral hospital and city view parcels or onto river road in

either direction. Um this would be at the end of Vance Corner Road as you're heading um as you're heading out to that direction. So there's we we kind of highlighted the um the current zoning in in its entirety. Um he wanted to mention a lot of those parcels towards the end are protected under APRs. Um and portions of those also fall within priority habitat and estimated habitats

and a few of those parcels are already developed as as um solar fields in that area. Um also as part of our open space and w plan um some of those properties are identified as area for high priority for preservation and protection um and designated as scenic farmland corridors.

Like I said, it's is there's some more to that letter. So, it is on file at the planning department, but I just um wanted to recognize um Mr. Leo's contribution to this discussion.

Actually, I'd like to say thank you because um it shows people have interest. We don't always realize that people actually have interest. So, thank you for sending this to us and I hope he can attend more meetings. It's greatly appreciated.

Yeah.

He did come into the office and speak to Ross and I and we showed him the areas.

Yeah, that are under discussion.

I think because if if he's educated and he understands, he can educate his friends and neighbors and the more people that are involved and understanding, the better it's going to be for whatever plan we have going forward.

It's going to have to have a lot of PR.

Yes.

You're going to have to have a lot of PR. You're going to have to the town's going to have to spend some money by sending some things out to people, right? through through website, right?

Through different social media outlets at the town controls, workshops, town meeting members.

Meeting members. Yes.

So, just for my notes for for clarity, um when we say potentially changing zoning, that wouldn't be able to also be a 40y because that would be a separate 40 would be an overlay. So, it depends on if we would rather go zoning change, that would be changing the allowed uses in here, right?

While a 40y would be a completely new overlay on the zoning map, right?

I think I think we're well, not to speak for the board, I think we're like 40y we're tableabling for this first phase.

Okay. Okay. Good. I just wanted to make sure I have that.

We could have the potential for a 40R based on future discussions.

Okay, perfect. Thank you.

Tabing to be more clear, zoning change is our priority.

Yes.

Right. Changing the allowed use, changing the allowed use within this zone is our priority. Okay.

And when the housing production plan comes back and we have more material to review and we have a full board, we will expand on our developmental thoughts as it relates to the Y to be later developed and or overlaid.

Wonderful. That's that's phase two.

Perfect. Thank you.

We could take the 40 Y and their standards and incorporate it into our zoning anyway. I mean all their standards but we could incorporate we could incorporate again the benefit of the 40 wire there are incentives from the state to develop the district and your units.

Okay so I think there are there are benefits than just saying let's just do it on what kind how much what kind of incentives um so could we do both? Could we actually change the zoning to what we like and then do an overlay and say, "Okay, you can do a 40 wide here." Because that's all we would have to do is do an overlay that say this area allows 40 Y

kind of like activate it, if you will.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

So, we do something like that.

I don't know because of the time cons to to do that because I don't think you could do them both at the same time, right?

Why not? It would also be it would be dwindling down the um minimum lot size by quite a bit if we were to do like are you saying to do the 40 Y allowed uses right now and then once the regs come out?

No, I guess not. I guess what I'm saying is we could do both. We could go in and look at the zoning in that area and change it to how we want it.

Okay.

But if the 40y is going to get us more benefits and more stuff, we could do both. We could also say we're going to also put this area into a 40y overlay.

Yeah, I guess that would matter what comes down. So, under the under the preliminary kind of like overview of what they did, they compared it to similar 40R districts which had onetime incentive payments um between 10,000 and 600,000 in state funding.

Okay.

Plus an additional 3,000 for each home created in the start of home district.

So it's there there are there are some benefits to doing it that and again we won't know that until we get the final right. So we just put that towards the end until we get it right.

Um, I just my my my rookie sentiment on this um is some states not pointing a finger at Massachusetts um fix a program with another program. How about we just fix the program? So if the zoning is the issue and the zoning is what we want to alter, let's fix the zoning. And then if we have an additional product to offer the why, we develop it and apply it. And if it happens to overlay

what we already made better within our zoning rags that are permanent and not permanent, but active and current, then that 40 Y acts as an enhancement. I mean, it's not much different than what you're saying. just the reality of that maybe the timing of it will be a little bit different because we can immediately start to talk about zoning, right?

The why really needs the feedback from the housing production plan. It needs some time. It needs a few different things, right? So, currently we can think about it, but realistically the zoning change is going to win the race based on our work.

Well, the zoning change is going to be 50% of town meeting now, right?

No, not if it has an inclusionary component, right? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. It's got to have that.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so if we did a 40RIR, that would automatically have an inclusion area component. So, it' be pretty much guaranteed to be at that 50% plus one vote.

Um, and again, that'll take it to time working with stakeholders in the town to figure out, you know, is this something viable? What kind of development would you be looking at? You know, standalone apartment.

Well, let me ask houses.

Let me ask you this. Well, it seems that a zoning change might be number one to do.

Could you talk about that when you have a meeting with the all the boards?

That's that's where we want to see where the where the right where the where the taste of the board wants to go. So then we can say this is what the town's looking to do. Is this something that's financially feasible or something that's in your wheelhouse of developments that you've done in other states, other towns, and have been, you know, the town's been happy with it, you've been happy with it,

the the eventual tenants are happy with it. So that's kind of why see I think I think changing the zoning in in on Route Six is a good thing because um you've got a lot of the co the college and you've got a lot of elderly people that come down if we're doing mixed use, right?

What what's the density going to be for a residential? What's the breakdown need to be?

Um all those things.

I I have just a reference point that I I just want to share. Um I was born in Stanford, Connecticut and left Connecticut early in my life. But my dad, God rest him, had um seven siblings total. Five of them remained in Stanford, two here. So being the Greek family that we are, I was in Stamford sometimes every week or two, three times a month and summers and and I'm still there frequently enough. Stamford,

Connecticut has been a go-to or or Stanford in general north and south has been a go-to place for a lot of New Yorkers and a lot of Greenwich people and the list goes on.

You can go to Stamford, Connecticut today, 45 Yeah. 40 some odd years after I left. And the majority of Stamford is preserved in similar ways as it was then. But the downtown area and it's downtown for one reason because that's where the mall was placed. It was a large mall, but that's where the mall was placed. And what went up in Stamford is adjacent to andor around the mall.

That's where your apartments went up.

That's where corporate went up. And if you go two, three miles away from the mall, and if my family can hear me, my cousins on Hope Street, you're going to see the same two and three families that look exactly the way they did 45 years ago. They they were spared or saved or preserved solely by the fact that the downtown, which was the mall, it became downtown over 50 years because of how many things

went up. So to your point and to all of our work, if we're going to save the landscape, the stone walls, the rolling green pastures long term, 50 to 100 years, we're going to do it because we're increasing opportunity up and down Route Six. And if we don't do that, those other areas will either forever be challenged, right? Yeah.

Or or or at least the focal point. And I and I think that our work today is not about the next two to five years. Our work today is about the next 50 years, which will fall in line with the town's master plan of fall in line with the house.

But look what's happening in downtown.

The banks are being converted into apartments.

Beautiful.

A lot. Well, that's what I'm saying. But a lot of the buildings downtown, the commercial buildings are being converted into apartments.

Right.

So, we're going to do the same thing on Route Six.

Absolutely.

Makes sense.

Yeah. We went out, we brought a couple to the national club uh this weekend and um How was it?

Publicly, everybody says mixed reviews.

I'm going to give it a 10.

Yeah.

I thought I thought the appetizers, the food, the service, I thought everything about it was spoton. To be honest with you, if my wife says, "Let's go there tomorrow night," I jump at the opportunity.

Big change, huh?

I was impressed. But the couple that we brought um the woman hadn't the woman hadn't been to New Bedford for quite some years and most of our discussion at dinner was how beautiful downtown was and she couldn't believe it and she wished her community had done something similar. So I mean it's a kind of a proud moment because we know what it was like right the national club.

I don't know what that was like. I just know what it looked like on the outside.

But sure even like like for the younger generation. My my daughter lives out of state, but when she does come back here and friends, they they tend to go down.

Of course. Of course. Yep.

If my daughter could live downtown, she would.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. My my granddaughter, they would love to live downtown.

And let's be honest, um, as far as a head start to do something like that.

This is way ahead of what that was when they started, right?

There's no I mean, way ahead.

Way ahead, right?

We got it. Everything everything's there, right?

You know, park and everything's there.

Sure.

And it goes to the the town's commitment. We talked about infrastructure.

Um, you know, improving that area from a from a visible standpoint to to, you know, you see when you go down downtown.

Obviously, we're not going to put cobblestone roads in, but you know, changing light post, changing street plantings, you know, it just beautifies the area just as opposed to, you know, the concrete jungle.

Right. Right.

Yeah, I think this was a productive meeting.

Can we Can we go to um number two?

Do you want to do that without everybody here?

Oh, we have three here. I'd like to because we we got to get that to the lawyer, right?

To to get it started.

I don't know. I don't know if we talked to Helio and or we can at least bring Wait, you want to bring it up? I mean, we have a meeting in a week. So, that's what I was going to say. If if we table it to one more week, I just feel like whatever we say tonight, we're going to have to repeat.

Fair enough. The whole point was we wanted at least Right. Yeah. I could reach out.

That's something that I think we should Yeah.

discuss and get on the 22nd.

Yeah. We we could at the discretion of of the board um put it on we we could table that for the number meeting number two.

Oh no, but next week make it number one.

Oh, okay. Just we get to Well, we will have um public hearing.

We have a public after that though. As far as administr administratively make it number one. And and just just just for the audience, if anybody's listening and for the benefit, it's basically we we've kind of talked about about just updating the site plan review revisions.

We we we did a redline um document that we gave to the board, but um based on other conversations just kind of breaking it up into a bylaw that'll have certain characteristics and then some of the regulatory things will then go into um just a planning board regulations for site plan review. Um similar to the storm water regulations, there's there the DPW has a separate set of regulations. um for storm water

management. So some something in that regards, but um we don't have to go to town meeting for that.

We will to change the bylaw. Yeah, that change the bylaw.

Yes, but we we're looking to do that regardless of which way we go. So this will just dictate do we want to just revamp that, but it limits what the board has a little leeway on or doing it this way and putting the regulations into Okay.

into you separate the two.

Yeah. So, this gives us a little bit more leeway to say, "Oh, you're right.

Let's do it that way."

Gives us a little leeway for redevelopment. Yeah.

Um, you know, criteria. You don't have to be 100% in compliance with something when you're doing redevelopment or something doesn't quite make sense for a job.

We're not stuck by it being a bylaw.

Okay.

It's more of a regulation.

Gee, I read that. I read the whole thing. I just didn't get that. I'll have to read it again.

Yeah. Yeah. We can we can talk about it again. Okay. Next week.

All right.

Well, and just um just to conclude for the public, our regulations afford all of them and our decision making a little bit more flexibility than bylaws for them to know. Our reg our town rags afford both of us, you and us, flexibility when making a decision compared to adhering to a bylaw.

Right.

completely and it would allow a quicker adjustment of those regulations rather than having to go back to town meeting every time we realize something. Talk about parking realizing that parking is a little outdated. Doesn't have to go through town meeting anytime there's a something that we come across through a site plan that comes in or whatever else.

I'm just going to say this. I know Lor's mentioned this too. Um I'm going to use uh I'm going to use Lowe's. Okay. Every time I go to Lowe's, I look at all that parking, right? Yeah.

I have never seen it full.

Not even close.

Y I mean, it's ridiculous.

I mean, when you think and it goes against everything Yeah.

people talk about from a global scale.

Ridiculous. Okay.

We either could have left more trees and stuff. I mean, if you if you go down south and you go down to Hilton Head, they have all these developments and you don't even see them because of the trees that you have you see a sign and then you drive in.

We could have done something like that instead of putting all this asphalt that Yeah. just clearing land for 100%.

It's crazy.

It's a whole different world of shopping like you said, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and the more you know, we talked about with I guess site plan review for the Audi dealership, right?

How many how many parking spots does he need?

Crazy. For customer spots.

Yeah, I'm talking customer spots.

What? I think I forgot what it was. It was over a couple hundred at least.

Yes.

They're never going to have How many customers do you have at a car dealers? They're never going to have 200 people there buy an Audi. So, right. And if and if the concern is, you know, the the small used car lots, then we can say, you know, x amount of spots per square foot minimum, whatever to capture those small facilities. So, there's ways to y to make it work, you know, and even um even buying an

auto, you do all the research online.

That's what I'm saying. Before you even go to the dealership, you've already got everything there. Yeah, you don't have the what they, you know, what they would call the tire kickers. Just go in there, right? No, not anymore.

Most people do the research before.

You're going there basically to to test drive it and confirm that's what you want.

Yeah.

And negotiate.

And negotiate. That's not as fun either because everybody knows the price now.

Yeah.

Still fun.

There's always room. There's always room. If you don't get them to give you something, you lost. They won, right? Just take my husband with you.

Believe me, he he can sell ice to an Eskimo, but no one's going to sell him. He can negotiate like you can't believe I what?

So, at this point in time, uh I think this was actually much more productive than I thought it was going to be with only three of the five. Um so, thank you to both of you.

Absolutely. And um we are scheduled for next week which is December 202 2nd for our regularly planned planning board meeting.

Yep.

And that'll be back on Zoom and that will also be yet remote zoom.

Um so unless there's any further comments, we need a motion.

So moved.

Second.

What is your motion?

Oh, my motion is to say good night.

Ajourn second. So motion made to adjourn by Margaret, seconded by Lorie Miller.

Margaret, yes.

Lori Miller, yes.

Nick Psychopatis, yes. Thank you all and good night.

Good night.

Thank you everyone.