Planning Board Meeting - July 27, 2026

I want to open the July 27th meeting of the Diamond Planning Board.

And the planning board voted to hold meetings virtually in accordance with the governor's extension to June 30th, 2027.

And this meeting is being recorded. Roll call. Kevin here.

Margaret here. Nick, yes, here.

Helio here.

And Lori here. We have a full board this evening. The first thing on our agenda is an appointment with Tim Barber from the DPW, the director of the DPW. Is Tim on?

Yes.

Is that a yes?

A quiet yes.

Yep. No, I see him on there. I think that he just got status.

Tim, if you're talking, you're muted.

Okay. Dan, do you want to start we questions or do you want No, I'll let I'll let Yeah. No, I'll let Tim give his take on things.

Good evening.

How are we tonight?

Hi, Tim.

Hello.

Hi.

Nice to see you, Tim.

Nice to see you all.

So, um I believe we're here to talk about sewer and our um I guess our flow and loading study.

Give me a second. Just opening up a study.

Okay.

I believe you all have a copy of of the slow and loading study that was sent over to you.

Yes.

So, so basically we had we had Stantac our our consultant engineer who was also work working as a peer review for a number of the developments in town that are proposed and they they had they completed a flow and loading study on the wastewater treatment facility.

And um they you know they looked at all the historic flows um including you know flows with like higher I and higher inflow and infiltration where you have high rainfall events and uh and also you know the amount of times that our plant flow has gone over 80%.

and and and there there are a number of annual flows that are reported throughout the year that over over our 80% flow. So what happens when we when we hit a consistent 80% flow is the D can the department of environmental protection can step in and they can require uh a moratorum and require us to to proceed with upgrades at the facility to uh to create more capacity.

Um there's also, you know, there's also a number of times where our plant has gone over the 100% uh during really um high intense rainfalls and and and large flow times.

Now, our our permanent flow is 4.2 million gallons per day. And so we're looking at an average of 3.36 million gallons per day to get us to that 80%.

So in in totaling all the developments uh including back you know completion of the village at Lincoln Park the preserve at Damoth Woods which is under construction um three 340B developments that are proposed uh one's been approved um uh one uh one hearing closed a couple weeks ago and the last hearing is set to close this Thursday. Uh amongst added a number of other developments there's

over 55 developments. There are market rate developments all multi-residentidential which our infrastructure and and treatment facility wasn't designed for all that flow and concentrated flow. So we will, you know, looking at all all of those estimated flows coming in, when all those flows come online, we we will be over our 80% um on average.

So, we're looking at probably once they all come online, we'll be looking at it um having to upgrade our facility um or possibly go under mortorium for connections.

You know, there are still a number of residents in town that who have who have access or have services to the to the um sewer system. um they've paid better assessments uh for the infrastructure to be installed, but they haven't connected whether you know they they've had a septic system that's been working fine or they had a new new septic system when the when the system wasn't installed in

front of their properties or it was it's just funding, you know, because it's it's it you know, every year it gets more and more expensive to connect to the sewer or a lot of these, you know, um people that haven't connected, you know, we they should probably connect before there are any moratoriums on the system or or we get to that stage. I mean it's going it's going to be a little while

before these projects are built out to that stage. Uh but um you know we're working currently on our comprehensive wastewater management plan. um where we're at the stage where we're ready to award the the plan to the consultant and then proceed. That's about an 18month uh project. Um that that should come with a lot of analysis of our existing system, water quality analysis um and uh

testing and then recommendations for for upgrades um whether they're treatment upgrades or capacity upgrades. Um and and based on future projected buildout, we hope to see, you know, what that what that looks like. I know it's going to it's going to take about a year and a half.

And that and that the flow and loading study is focused on the treatment facility itself. So it's not focused on any of the collection system or or infrastructure out in the collection system. So as each of these developments come online, we are working with Stantech to evaluate these these projects and their flows that are going to be coming into the system and all the downstream collection

system and pump stations to see if they have capacity and you know some of the some of the areas do. Uh a lot of the areas do not. So that forces um other upgrades in the system. are currently working on uh for the preserve 40B, 288 units. Um we don't have capacity in two of our pump stations on Route 6 and Ellsworth Street to allow them to connect all of their buildings. We can we have capacity

to connect about five of their buildings. So we awarded the construction project. We bid we bid that project about a year ago and it came in it was estimated originally at 2.1 million. It came in at about 3.4 million. We didn't have the funding for it so we rebid it. We split the bid uh so we had a base bid for one of the pump stations and then a deductible alternate

bid if that we could we could either pick the base bid if it came in too high or if the bid came in reasonably. uh we could we could fund the whole project.

It came in higher. So, we chose to only proceed with the Ellswick pump station upgrades. And um that that most of that's funded through a grant through Mass Works uh through the through a Mass Works infrastructure grant. So, we we've applied for a second grant to to hopefully fund the other pump station, the Route Six pump station, so we can allow the 40B on Route 6, the preserve to to connect and other developments

along Route 6. That project, uh, the Elwood station is going to take about a year to construct. Um, so hopefully within that year, we'll hear on on the grant funding. uh and keep your fingers crossed that we we get that additional funding and we'll proceed with that project. Um other there are other developments in town um that are proposed into these pump stations and they all go into our one of our largest

pump stations, the north pump station which is located along the Pass Manet River behind Friends Academy. um that pump station with all of these developments uh flowing into it um will also need to be upgraded. So that being a large station, it does have it should have the wet well capacity in the station, we're just going to need to upgrade the pumps that that we know of.

So So you're looking at probably a $300,000 upgrade to to get that that station.

um to to be able to pump at the capacity for these developments. Um out on a Westport Road, we have a number of pump stations in a force main uh that one of the 40Bs is looking to to pump into. Uh same thing, the pump stations over there do not have the capacity um to allow those flows in. Currently, um we don't have all of the data from from that development on OP road. So, we're

working with the developers and their engineers to get that data and hopefully we can continue to analyze that that area of the system and if they can connect or not. So the you know the Haway the the Hawthon Country Club development that was approved uh we have you know we do have the capacity in the collection system and there are no pump stations between that project and the treatment facility.

So there won't there aren't any required upgrades along the route just at just at the treatment facility. So Anybody have any questions?

I do, Tim, if you don't mind.

Absolutely.

One of my questions is in regard to those who have paid government assessments as it relates to the calculation to date.

I'm under the assumption they're not included, right? Mathematically, they're not included as to where we're at. And if so, for the sake of the fact that they have paid, shouldn't they be in terms of decision- making moving forward? Or what's the town's position, perspective, or language when all of a sudden they want to, but they learn that they can't?

So we've we've uh well, I've posed this question.

Um a couple years ago there was a a development on FC Connor road coming in being proposed and that was my question.

I had we had a number of homes that still haven't connected that are that have paid betterments to the system and their their council um stated that there was case law that basically you can't hold capacity for anyone who has not connected whether they've paid a betterment or not.

Unfortunately, um our you know our position is is you know we feel if they've paid for the infrastructure then they should be allotted that capacity to to be able to connect and they have been you know to date. So you know they should they should connect before you know before we reach our capacity you know right in the event just a quick followup. So, in the event that they don't and they learn that they can't, is

the town in a position to reimburse them? And and is there law that states that that is applicable?

I don't believe so because it's it's it's the cost to install the infrastructure um across the front end of their property and the infrastructure is there and they have you know most of the people have had ample time to connect.

So, understood. Some you know some of them are on projects that were actually mandated like the the Route 6 project around Lake Nokachoke that was mandated by the board of health. So all connections were supposed to be made uh already but there are a number of people who haven't not. So you know unfortunately we we don't force any connections um but you know we would hope you know if they

pay to bet they should they should connect to the system.

Yeah. And and ultimately I'm asking because part of our responsibility is to take what we learn from these meetings or and or what we know and share it with those that we can. So, you know, this would be good dialogue to share with people in our circles and let them know that the clock's always been ticking, but it's ticking faster now.

And that's the thing. It's it's you know we the system would you know was designed to last a lot longer than what we're looking at um with capacity wise you know and if you look at population projections they haven't been great and you know looking forward over the next 10 years but with the amount of of projects and developments being proposed it looks like we are going to be increasing our a population and

you know and and a lot sooner you know than we would have expected. So thank you.

And that's that's what it does. It's forcing us to to make these decisions and and design the upgrades a lot sooner and then and and that's you know just talking about flow. So you know there are a lot of other aspects is you know there's solids the bioolids where you know the the more sewer we take in the more bio bioolids are are collected and we have to get rid of

those too and currently we you know we take in all the brush uh from from residents and we process the brush we mix it with the bioolids we create a compost material that it's actually sold um in for land application and we've always made revenue off of that product.

Well, with impending regulations from D uh coming down, um they you know, a lot of lot of companies are getting out of that business and and they may not allow land application uh in the future. So now we're looking at starting this coming October, we're g looking at having to pay to get rid of our bioolids to the tune of about $100,000 per month where where we always made the revenue.

So So it's additional cost and and we have to continue to find locations that'll take the bioolids, you know, and you know, there's a there are places there's a place in Rhode Island that's actually closing down that takes bioolids. So, you know, the vendors are getting less and less. Um, there's also, you know, the treatment aspect. So, you know, we treat for all of our contaminants and bacteria and nutrients

like nitrogen and, uh, and and, you know, that, you know, those numbers, you know, as the flows increase, those numbers go up. So, we have to treat more, you know, and our aation, uh, we have an aeration project that's already been 100% designed. um was originally right uh right before COVID it was like uh it was estimated at about 2 million and uh then we're looking at about six million now to to

upgrade all the aeration but that that will give us at at times at a lot of times our aeration where and our biochemical oxygen demand is over 100% of our capacity. So we're we're constantly going over that 100% and try and trying to slow down the treatment process so we can we can treat all the flows coming in. Um so at at a point in time, you know, with if the flows get

too high, we won't be able to, you know, complete that process. So so we're looking to upgrade that system as soon as possible. So, we're currently going out to the state revolving fund so we can so we can request uh funding at a lower percentage um for that project and hopefully uh hopefully we get awarded that funding and we can move forward with that project as well.

Tim, I have a question too. um the influent report and you referenced it as well. These upcoming larger projects that are going to take us over the 80%.

Um yeah, there's eight listed on the report, eight upcoming projects.

they're tabulated now collectively they they will put us over the 80% but you know I'm not sure how they're all going to pan out in in the construction phases. So thank you. And we do have, you know, we do have some fees built in for mitigation. Uh so hopefully, you know, we'll collect some some funding from these projects to put towards those upgrades. Um that that's obly in in the immediate future.

Um I have a question, Tim. Um I was uh I went and had a review when you had everyone come over and look at the sewer plant, all that. And I had a question back then. All these new housing developments that are coming in, the 40BS, are there grease traps on those developments?

There are not. We've we've looked into that and at this point we can't require grease traps on residential buildings.

Don't you think that would help a lot?

I yeah, it would definitely help with with the the BOD, the biochemical oxygen demand aation um and uh and and and collecting grease, you know, from coagulating in the system.

But uh but you know, in in doing some of my research, I I I can't find any any successful location that has required uh grease traps. It it it's a it's a large cost burden because in a in a in large development or apartment building the plumbing has to be completely separated. So all the kitchen waste is separated from all the sanitary waste.

So so especially in a in a 40B um it it's it's considered a burden costwise.

What about and what happens when you you know they look at 40B as as residential. So to us it it's it's we consider it more of a commercial development especially like an apartment style but uh the state looks at as a resident a residence or residential development. So you have to be consistent the way the way you treat a single family residence the same way you treat a a a 40B development whether

it's an apartment style or or a single or a duplex style.

So when you have construction on a single residential house no uh grease chaps are required. See I have septic so I have to watch what I put down my septic so I don't put grease my septic.

Okay. But is it a law that you you can't require the even the even the subdivisions to put grease traps in um when they connect to it.

I I I think the state has code on on not requiring it for residential.

Oh.

Okay.

Yeah. And then like I said uh with with the 40B is a completely different animal where you can't you know burden them especially inconsistently with the way you treat any other residential development.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Uh I have a a question Mr. Chairman if uh if nobody else does.

Um, hey Tim, it's Kevin. Uh, have a a quick question about the Betterment and what it really pays for.

Uh, it's my understanding and and let me know if I've got it right or not, that the Betterment that that uh comes on your your tax bill is simply for bringing the ability to connect to your parcel.

And on top of that then if there are people that have not connected is there also a connection fee in addition to the betterment?

No. So so most of our our bet uh homes or properties with a bed the the connection cost is built into that vitamin C.

Got it. Okay.

There are there are still other costs like the inflow and infiltration costs and if you need a cleanout cover. So there there are other costs in addition but typically better include are do include the connection costs.

Most of that charge then is is uh already being paid for in an amortized basis financed by the town.

Correct. Yes.

Got it. Okay. Thank you.

You're welcome.

Okay. I have a question.

So, if a person has a a property and all the hookups are already there, they've been put there, but they haven't built on it. And there are a few of those in Dartmouth. What you're saying is they should probably do it now before we run out of space.

Well, if they if they plan to develop, you know, that the cost goes up, you know, every year if you don't if you don't develop it either way. Um so you know I if they want to if they wanted to build they can build and connect you know if not if we get to a point where we issue a moratorium we wouldn't allow them to connect until we build enough capacity in the system with

our upgrades you know is there one section of town that is in more danger than another section of town?

No, not really. I mean, we have, you know, we have our two large pump stations. Our north pump station, uh, which I just got, and then our south pump station at the head of the bay, um, on the on the north side is, uh, up.

The, you know, most of our, all, you know, all our collection systems go into those large pump stations before they head down to the treatment facility. So, you know, we're all susceptible, you know.

Okay.

And and the the treat, you know, if we're looking at capacity at the treatment facility, it's it's it's all it's the whole system. You know, if we're looking at, you know, collection system areas, you know, each pump station capacity that those are individual like I like I said even before like like the old Westport Road, they we have some smaller pump station over there that don't have a lot of

capacity. they're more neighborhood pump stations. So those are we're concerned with with any large flows going into those. Um but you know the uh so you know currently we you know most of the piping system should be able to handle the flows. It's it's it's the it's the infrastructure the infrastructure that was put in along the route 6 corridor.

Is there different diameters of what you put in because it's commercial versus um residential?

Um not so much commercial versus residential, but more you in as you collect more sewer, you increase the size of the pipe. So you you'll start off with a smaller pipe like an 8 in and increase it to a 10 and then 12 and you know 16 18 and continue to increase the pipe with with the proposed flows that are projected.

Okay. So if it was a mixeduse um development it wouldn't make any difference. I mean the pipe would have to be maybe a little bit larger than you would for just small businesses. Yeah.

Okay.

Madam Chair, just to follow up on that real quick. Um, if it's a mixeduse commercial and then it went to something that was all residential, that's where we start getting the flow increases that aren't originally calculated for.

Correct Tim?

Correct. Because the commercial the commercial part of development is is calculated a lot lesser flow.

So, so additional residential are calculated a higher flows.

Tim, at some point if all these projects get built, this board might be in a position of approving projects that do not have the ability to connect.

That's correct.

That is that is the reality the town is facing.

Yes.

Okay, it is and and until we evaluate each development and its impact on the infrastructure, you know, we don't know the the complete, you know, the complete story I guess on on on how their flows are impacting our infrastructure. So, so you know, our consultant does a pretty thorough job of of analyzing all the impacts and and taking all the all the flows into consideration when we do that.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Any other questions on our sewer system?

as Oh, go ahead.

As a followup to Helio's uh question, um they would find out uh the the at the point of moratorum, they would find out after we've approved everything and they would go to get their building permit.

Is that is that the case, Tim?

What's this?

What do you mean? If we got to if we got to a point where where there had to be a moratorum.

Yes. the first.

So when we get to that point um you know if we get to that point where we need to uh secure a moratorum, we would we would send out a public service announcement stating that you know to to let everybody know you know at that point you know and if you know if it's if it's the state that's implementing that you know it's going to be we're going to get notified and then and then that that

notice from the state will also also be part of the public notice.

Yeah. And and you know, other than that, I mean, we we hate to tell anybody once once they get a building permit that they can't connect. So, you know, we try to make make that known.

Got it. Thank you.

You're welcome.

Tim, do you have to get permission from the state before you create a moratorum for sewer?

Um, we would notify the state. not we don't necessarily need permission and then on the other hand they can implement it on us if we if we go over that 80% consistently.

Well, I know what the state can implement unfortunately, but I didn't know if we had to we had to request a moratorum.

No, but if if we do um you know it's pretty much townwide, you know, right?

You can't you can't pick and choose, right?

Thank you.

Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna keep um on that, Tim, because there's two avenues that I think I'm understanding. If the state comes down and puts a moratorum, that's that.

If if or until the state issues that, does the town have discretion once you click that 80% to deny connections?

We can we can issue a moratorum.

Okay.

Absolutely.

Okay. It's not contingent on the other.

Thank you.

Tim, can I ask a question about water?

Yes.

Um, I know right now we don't have a water band.

We we have a restriction but not a band.

Okay.

There are certain properties in town I could park my car in front of their house and actually wash my car with their sprinkler system because it's on the pavement and not on their grass and during the torrential downpours their sprinkler systems were working quite fine. Is there anything we can do about that? Especially if we have a water band.

So we can so we that's part of our restriction. Um so we can we can issue them a citation. Um if they're on municipal water if they're on a well we don't have right that jurisdiction but you know we can work with with the board of health to maybe some send a letter just letting them know that you know during torrential downpours they they are pumping water out of the ground to to

water their lawn which is you know which is not conserving water at all.

No. And it's just causing us to buy new more water from New Beverage in reality, right?

And that's what everyone else is paying.

I mean, granted, they're if they're not in a well. I mean, granted, they're paying for the water, too, but it could be I don't know if it could be substantial less, but every dollar counts when it comes to water and we and conserving it.

It does. Absolutely. especially during high peak times like during the summer, you know, the summer months when it's hot. We're lucky right now that we've got the rain that we had because we've been in a in a drought most of the season and you know, we've had some rains that have kept the past remains at river levels up. So, currently we're able to pump from uh restricted wells. Um but we're

we're only a couple ten or a few ten of a foot uh from that shut off, you know.

So So every week I pray for rain.

My father used to say if if God wanted the water to be green, if the grass to be green, he would water it.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Anyone else have any questions?

Tim, anything else you want to inform us about?

No. Um, you know, we we've completed that our upgrade or or almost completed the whole upgrade at the 579 waste water treatment facility which included the our four log contact pipe upgrade which allowed us to put the Benelli wells back online which they are. Uh we've had a couple issues with those with a VFT of our variable frequency drive going bad or a pump motor went a couple weeks ago.

So we're waiting to get that installed.

So no those mechanical problems happen but we those wells are online and uh but we had during the blizzard um our 299 facility got hit pretty bad. Um, there was a telephone pole on site that was that was broke during the blizzard that got knocked out and the transformers were were surged or shorted and some of a lot of the components um not not the weld components but but the electrical

components leading up to the facility.

So, we're still working on repairing that. you know, we're talking close to $100,000 worth of repairs for the damage from the blizzard just just at that facility. So, we have a couple of wells that are still offline from that.

So, so it's a constant battle trying to keep these these wells online and and functioning.

Tim, one more question. Quick question.

Um, are we going to stop buying water from Fall River?

Um, it it you know, it all depends. It's an expensive investment. Um, you know, uh, we we we've had discussions. We still have to have discussions to look at the cost of of purchasing water. So, the rates that we would be charged and the, you know, the cost estimate to install the the pipe system. Um, you know, it was originally a couple years ago it was about $5 million. Now it's

probably it's about 7 million. And then we may have to also install a a pump station and some additional treatment because that's a long line going from Ball River down Route Six all the way to Dartmouth. So we might have to we might have to add additional treatment chemicals at that point. So So there's additional infrastructure that might be needed. So, but it, you know, it I think

it's a great a great concept and and I think if it comes to fruition, it would be great because it would be added redundancy and if we could get it at a lower cost, that would be great.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Chair, I have one more question for Tim.

Tim?

Yes.

Yeah. I I know this could come across as comical, but I'm just curious. Do towns like ours that are along the shoreline ever consider or pursue what a desalination facility would cost andor provide long-term return for um we haven't looked at it um in the in the recent past I maybe years ago they might have looked at it. Um I know they do they do have them in mass in Rhode Island. So,

right. I No, no disrespect, but we have a lot of water adjacent to us. We just got to make use of it.

We do. We do.

And it's Thank you.

It's always an option.

Thank you.

Absolutely.

Dannon, do you have any other questions?

Just just for clarification and one of one of the reasons that we have Tim before us today is as the planning board looks at potential zoning changes uh one of the main areas we've looked at is along the route six corridor. Tim um you mentioned the the north pump station. Is it generally the whole north section of town up to about Forner Road that would all go to that to that one station

before getting to the plant? Is that about the the limits of the area of town that would be heading towards that pump station?

Um further up Route Six as easily and and up Hathaway Road is also Okay.

So any any proposed zoning changes that would bring more of a residential component that north station would be affected by those potential changes.

Correct.

Absolutely.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Unfortunately, we have people at the state house who want us to put in 10,000 new homes.

They do. you know, they they care about housing and housing only. Um, some people that's it. That's their goal, just to get housing, you know, and and if we have any infrastructure, then they can connect, you know, so you know, so I won't be really proposing any any extensions. Uh I know we looked at we looked at extending sewer um uh as as you know the D was coming down uh the Cape and and to us

regarding you know nutrient removal and uh nitrogen but but you know we can't really extend any sewers and or plan to extend any sewers at this point until we um until we really look at the comprehensive wastewater management plan and uh basically the the proposed uh population uh forecasted population and and buildout of the town and and and where the you know the planning of the town

wants was going to go in in development.

So we we really have to take a look at that and where you know where any of that infrastructure should should really be placed if needed and and where you know a big part of our capacity. So our 4.2 2 million gallons per day is our permitted flow to discharge out to Buzzard's Bay. So that's it's not B it's not just permitted what we treat. It's it's it's our flow through our plant that that

gets discharged to the bay. So that's a rolling annual average. So at the end of the year that's our complete average. So while we have high peaks of daily averages and and low and low valleys, that 4.2 is where that is. So to be able to expand that capacity to be able to discharge more volume out to Buzzards Bay, there's a lot of permitting that would have to be involved and it could possibly

require us to replace or upgrade our outfall, which is about seven miles of of outfall pipe.

That's going to be expensive.

Absolutely.

Very expensive.

If that that short section uh along Route 6 to get from Westport to Dartmouth is 7 million.

Yeah. Unbelievable.

Well, I have another question. If someone has a buildable lot and the they do have the sewer and water and you know to be able to hook up to it and there's a moratorum but they also have the type of property that could approve a septic can they hook up to water and do the sept the the septic if they have if we have a moratorum.

Yeah. As long as they they provide plans they're approved by the board of health.

Yeah.

Right. Okay.

So Lori, are are you suggesting what I think you are? In other words, if you couldn't hook hook up, but you had sewer in front of your house, but because of a moratorum, you couldn't hook up, you could put a 5,000 square foot lot in your property with a septic system. Is that what you're Unfortunately. Unfortunately.

Stay away.

All right.

I'm That's That's what I'm afraid of.

That's right. Can you can you can you build it 5,000 square foot lot with a septic?

I doubt it.

I don't know. It depends.

Not maybe not today.

Right.

Maybe not today, but maybe in the future.

That's right. That's right. So yeah, and you know, possibly if if they have a like a nitrogen removal system or or a mini, you know, treatment plant that that has an operator permit, you know, they could probably they could maybe get away with it. You know, you know, technology, you know, continues to advance as well.

Well, demand, the designers have not had to design that yet, but once there's an opportunity, they will design it.

Correct. Yeah.

And unfortunately, they have to trial it, have a trial before we know it works.

And we're going to be the trial if we have the state if they have their way. Well, it's going to it's going to be a vote, but you know, um the towns and cities should be able to to do infrastructure and zoning what they feel is right for their town because the state the people up in the state, they don't live in these small towns in around Massachusetts. There's 351

cities and towns. I don't think that the state has a right to mandate all 351 across the board what zoning is going to be. I just don't want there a lot of urbanized areas that can handle that type of development, right?

You know, I I want to share and support Margaret your statement when this first surfaced the 5,000 square foot story because there are things from the state that have rubbed us the wrong way and then there are some that are rubbing us more so, right? If they're going to have that control, similar to something I spoke about in the last meeting, if we're going to sign and not have control, if

the state's going to have that much control, then maybe in the next meeting there'll be five members from the state at the Dartmouth Planning Board meeting and we can meet for dinner. There's no need for us at that point. What at that point, what are we doing with our time? We're being made fun of by the state.

They're taking away home rule.

And I would love for the state to hear that sentiment. If they're going to waste our time and not be considerate of the town's wishes historically, past, present, then they should come and be on this meeting two weeks from now and we can go out to dinner because ultimately that's what's going to happen if they take control that way. Anything we say or do in the best interest of the town,

constituents, etc., etc., is an absolute waste of time. But my real message is this. I'd shared this story about this recent information and what's going to be on the ballot to people of professional capac capacity in and around real estate that I thought they would have said to me, I know. And I got the deer in the headlight look. So, we need to make sure that this information gets out.

Yeah, we can rant that late. No, that's all right. We're going to we that's on the the u on our agenda this evening to discuss this. So we should let knowledge knowledge is key to you know you know educ education of the public is is important.

Well thank you Tim.

You're very welcome. Um sorry to bring this news and uh hopefully you know we don't get to the point where we have to issue a moratorum and we and we do reach capacity but um you know it looks like we you know it everything's going in that direction. So well you know Tim we don't want it dumping in the past river. Okay.

Do not we don't want that. So if we have to put a moratorum we put a moratorium. We'll live through it.

Absolutely. So, we'll um you know, once we once we have some progress on a on a comprehensive uh wastewater management plan, you know, we'll bring some more information over to you all.

Thank you.

Thank you, Tim.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

You all have a great night.

You too.

You too. Good evening.

Thanks, Tim.

I still next on the agenda is a site plan review PSPR-26-4 810 State Road Assessive Map 163 lot 35 um can do is there anyone anyone here for that if Yes, John Marky here. Uh, I know that I have a face for radio, but I'm being told I cannot show my face because it is disabled by the host. So, I'm comfortable with that, but I just want you to know I'm not trying to hide my face.

Jonathan, if you have if you're there, you can um you can allow attorney Mark.

Cheers.

Uh, thank you. Yeah, John, you should have permissions now.

All right, there we go. Uh, nice to see everybody and uh I'm glad I'm not Tim Barber. Um there are a lot of lot of challenges in that position and you guys asked some good questions. Um so I'm back here on your more traditional role and I'll just try to start by saying that uh we really are grateful for Dan who has worked closely with uh Kevin Medeiros since we got the zoning board uh

approval for from them on the zoning issues to go forward with the project.

Dan has been very very helpful to Kevin Medeiros and to our engineer Kevin Silva.

And uh as someone who's been in front of this board and this ZBA for a lot of years, I'm really glad that you guys have Dan in house to guide people. So your job, you know, the right questions to ask because he's avoided us from making mistakes. So um that being said, he's not far from his the apple didn't fall far from the tree. So that's probably why. Um, in any case, uh, who

who we are he who I am privileged today to represent is Kevin Medeiros, who many of you know, uh, he's a lifelong Dartmouth person. He's an attorney. He's a developer, and he had a recent project that was a little bit smaller, but very similar in that it was in the kind of generally in the Route 6 corridor off of Crossroad near Dixon Target. And I think he had a very good experience both with

the zoning board, with the concom, and with this board. and it's a project that's been completed and is now occupied. Um Kevin found another parcel further up Route Six that he thought uh would be another good project. And so the first question was who and it's Kevin. And the second question is where.

And in order to do that, if I could get uh control of the uh image so that I can uh show some plans, that might be helpful.

See slideshow from current slide. Okay.

So where this project will be uh it's known as 810 state road stone ledge apartments. It is on route 6 uh between Route 6 Marine and the Cask and Pig. Uh, and this is just a Google image of where it is. Uh, you see the restaurant Cask and Pig there and, uh, you see that it's just to the, you know, to it's to the east of, uh, Reed Road. Um, taking a look at the existing

conditions, it's uh, it's over a 6 acre lot. Uh, but it is uh, it has some issues in the front portion of the lot.

The area shown in this image as gray with the existing conditions is uh has some ledge on it and that ledge means that it is very difficult to do any kind of development that would be a commercial right in the front and with the large 6 acres in the back. Kevin thought this would be an ideal place to uh explore doing a residential project and uh so that's what this project is.

You have all of the plans and again the professionals in in town hall have commented on a lot of this. You'll note that as you're driving down Route 6, you probably will not see much when this project is developed because it's set back 350 ft with a long driveway. So, the residences won't be right up on Route 6. Um, you have the project has uh 56 two-bedroom units. Uh, and it meets

all of the parking requirements. There's 112 parking spots that are proposed. And so, it will meet all of those requirements. And it is uh through the multiple iterations that we've gone through, we believe we've addressed most of the issues. the uh there are no waiverss that we're looking for of any of the requirements that you have while we are pursuing this path. I just want you to be aware that the concom is also

going to have the opportunity to comment on this and Kevin has a hearing before them next week. So I think it's likely that if we were to get to a place today that you felt comfortable with the project, a condition would be satisfying the concom. If you prefer to give us comments for our engineer to take back, we would be willing to come back on August 10th if Dan Giosa guide you that

way and that's your preference to hopefully present after we've heard more from the conservation commission. Um the uh the lighting plan was approved and and stamped and was designed in a way to minimize any impact on any abuing properties. When we were in front of the zoning board, uh, a few of the neighbors came, uh, one of them expressed concern about, you know, the impact in the vis

visibility. And so there were some screening for the place that we would be putting the maintenance area and where we would be putting the, uh, the dumpster that would be servicing the property. And we went through the the visual impact, which was pretty limited to any of the neighbors because, yeah, as we go back, you can see that it's a it's a pretty heavily wooded area. So this was not an area that was likely to

have a lot of lighting impact or other impact upon the neighbors. Um the next page of the plan uh deals with the grading and and utilities. To my knowledge, as presented with the input from uh from Dan and working with Kevin Silva, it it is sufficient to meet all of the needs. In regard to the grading and the drainage, we just received this morning from the Conservation Commission's independent review that

they had a few comments on the plan that they wanted touched up regarding the calculations of drainage. We spoke with Kevin Silva today. Some of them were simply updating notes in the notation section.

Some of them were some minor calculations. We don't believe there's going to be any major or substantive changes in the detention pond or anything else, but we will confirm that as we present to the concom.

Um, one of the other issues or that you have to address with this board is the erosion control which has its own separate page. And to my knowledge, uh, the comments that came back from the Concom, my review of them were that they wanted a couple of additional, uh, words on this, but there was substantively there was nothing wrong or no issues with the erosion control. Um, in regard

to what uh, just to give you a flavor of the ledge outcropping, this is an image that I took uh, from Route Six. I just pulled off the road and you can see this is an area that they're going to have to go past to get the driveway in to go back to the more wooded area. Um the one of the issues that got raised by the zoning board and I just want you to be

aware of it that it's been addressed or the the beginning process has been addressed is when you're going to remove some of this ledge. There may be some blasting. We've already contacted uh Chief Aruda from Fire District 3 who got us in connection with uh all the regulations. Kevin Medeiros has already interviewed somebody who would be responsible for that and would be working closely with Chief Aruda and who

has worked with Chief Aruda in Dartmouth in the past. So, we recognize that this is not uh walking into an easy project, which is one of the reasons that it has not been developed before, but Kevin is willing to make the investment and to do it right. And as I said before, as a guy who's been around forever and is going to live with all of us, you this board

and myself, he's going to want to do it right. Um and uh so that's that's an issue that um I'm sorry, let me just going in the wrong direction here. when when I just put here there there is a whole code uh within the Bureau of Fire Prevention regulations that talks about how you have to blast and that you need to to inform the police chief, pardon me, the fire chief. There's also a need

because it's near Route 6 to work with the state. So, this will be a project that once we get through hopefully this process and Concom, Kevin will begin to line up the contractors who will be able to work closely with, you know, the chief on this part of the issue with uh Tim on getting the, you know, getting the sewer and getting the other utilities in and out in the water of the

place. And uh this is one other thing that we did voluntarily in front of the zoning board. Um, under the regs, you only have to notify people within 200 ft of the blasting, which would be this smaller red circle. But because some people who lived over on Reed Road expressed concern, we incorporated a 500 ft uh circle. And what that means is before they do the blasting, they'll go

in and videotape all of the houses to make sure the existing conditions are known, and if there is any damage, they'll have a baseline for it. Um and again that's something that is in part required but we've expanded the requirement because Kevin wanted to address the concerns of neighbors who understandably said hey we want to know this is not something we typically have seen even though the chief has seen it

even though the professionals have seen it. We wanted to give the uh the neighbors some level of comfort that it would be addressed and dealt with. And when we went for our second zoning board meeting we we doubled the size of this once we heard comments from them. Um ultimately what it will look like basically is this would be the front view. Um there are three floors and there is in the back because of the

grading another half of a floor in the back. So the 56 units there'll be 16 units per floor in floors one two and three. And as you go around the back to the rear view in one half of the building there will be units. So, there'll be four floors on the back of half of the building and three floors on the back of the other half of the building, which ends up with a total of

56 two-bedroom units. Um, so that's the broad overview, but I know that you've had uh you know, you've had the the plan at least for a little while. Dan has had it probably more times than he's wanted to see it, but he's given very helpful feedback. And uh that's a broad overview of what Kevin hopes to do. Uh but we would love to get any comments to make sure that if we're going to be able to

first of all answer your questions and then secondly if we have to make any modifications to do them for both the concom and for you when we come back on August 10th.

Sorry for talking quickly.

Dan.

Yes. So, um just a just a little background on um some of the zoning relief that attorney Marky mentioned. Um so, the the zoning board gave three forms of relief for this project. One was the use variance. Um another one was a a variance for the height. um an inadequate land area, just the number of units that could be allowed to be built on this size property and then also a special permit that allowed 34% law

coverage as this property um is in a zone 3 of the aquifer district. So that's the relief that was given um by the zoning board. Um, additionally, as attorney Marky mentioned, um, we received some comments back and forth with the Department of Public Works Engineering Division. Um, we just received a letter earlier today and to go along with the letter from the um, peer reviewer for Conservation

Commission. Basically, very similar comments addressing um, some drainage concerns. As attorney Marky also mentioned that, we have reviewed this a few times. um Ross Cuddy and I um they've addressed most of our concerns.

The only outstanding issues were the drainage which the applicants engineer is working through. There are also a couple other comments uploaded to the portal. One from the board of health. Um it's a little lengthy so I'll just paraphrase the last portion of it. If the planning board is to consider the special permit for approval, please condition to require an updated ESA accepted by the Dartmouth Board of

Health. ESA um is in regards to the environmental site assessment accepted by the Dartmouth Board of Health prior to the issuance of any building permit or site work permits. If work does not commence prior to March 29th, 2027, they had one done in 2025. It's good for two years. This isn't a special permit. I spoke with the board of health. Um they felt it was similar to the one we're

doing for um 8:13 across the street. So this isn't something we put a condition on in this manner. Um but I want to just put it out there so the applicant is aware of the comment that was made um and that this um will be something they need to reference if the work does not commence prior to March 29, 2027.

Also from the conservation commission proposed project includes impacts to jurisdictional resource areas. It requires review and approval by the conservation commission. Applicant has filed NOI permit application with conservation. Peer review process in storm water and well compliance was initiated on 71726 um in the parentheses delayed by revised plan set from the applicant. Um, so they

are reviewing those final few comments.

Um, in regards to the conservation commission's peer review consultant as well as a DPW, um I'm looking at it, it seems like it's something they can hopefully address within the next few weeks prior to our next meeting. Um, but at this point, I'm open up to the board if they have any questions for either myself or the applicant and his team.

Madame Chair, I have a question. Um, Attorney Marty, uh, who does, uh, Mr. Medeiros think are going to rent these? Will these be college students? Will these be, uh, young uh adults, uh, just starting out? Any Yeah, I I'm not Kevin is on the line, and I would allow him to speak for himself if he would like. My understanding is the other units because they were closer to the university were

more likely to be university. This is further away from the university. So I would think it would be either more young adults or older people who wanted to have an elevator and not have a big house like I wish my mother would move into. But instead she has a four-bedroom house with stairs and a chair that goes up the stairs. So, but um as with someone who's been successful, uh first

of all, I'll let Kevin speak for himself, but I don't think he's going to be picky on what what his market share is. Um there may be a few graduate students. There likely will be some young professionals who work in the area and there will be some retirees, but I'll let Kevin answer the question.

Yeah, you you answered it right. Um Kevin Medeiros, excuse me. Good evening everyone. Um, so as on crossroad, you know, I just I pick and choose, you know, I, you know, whoever is most qualified. So I do have some graduate students. Um, I have some I have a a professor from UMass that lives there.

Um, so you know, the best qualified candidates is uh who we put into our apartments.

Well, every time I go by there, when I go to Target, it looks very good.

Thank you. Thanks.

ask a question. Oh, sorry.

Good evening, Kev.

Good evening.

What about as far as if um if there are children there as far as a bus stop, where and where would that be addressed?

Um what on the Route Six site?

Yes.

Um I'm not sure to be honest with you.

We can I we should we should be able to ask whether in those circumstances. I've seen in some areas you have like a little uh a little rain shed type thing.

But I don't know whether people would like the look of that or not like the look of that. I'm happy to talk with Dan Gio what he thinks about it and talk to the engineer about it. But you don't want to do it if there's going to be one kid necessarily who's going to probably be sitting in his car with his mom or dad.

But but uh but that's a great question and uh we'll we will take that up and have an answer for you.

Thank you.

Can I follow up on that, Madam Chair?

Go ahead.

Nick, um good evening, uh Attorney Mark and Kevin. Uh great project first and foremost. Um, I was going to ask the same question about school bus pickup, but also if you can advise on postal services, how that's being addressed by on the property. And then my my other one is um and maybe this is to Dan as well. Um, snow removal on site. How is that also being addressed? Is are we is there a

plan for snow removal? Is there a place designed for um snow disposal? How how is the site going to address that?

Well, we we have uh certain areas where we have curbing and usually what's done we the the snow's pushed over the curbing into the grassy areas. Um that's how we've done it in the past. Um, now as uh for your other question with the with the school bus, you know, we would have to um you know, if we do have a child that's living there, um we'd have to get in touch with uh the the school

and uh the bus company and set up a bus stop right in front of the building. And I I think they set those up along Route Six where they pick up other children and the postal service. So, we're going to have we're going to have a mail room inside the building. So, um speaking with the postmaster on my last project, he was okay with putting our mailboxes on the exterior of the building, but he

asked that if we could on our next project put them inside the building.

So, we're going to find a spot inside the building where they have access um code access to get into the building to deliver the mail.

Okay.

And I guess my my last comment, you know, whether whether a school bus drives into the site or not, you're you're in the process of resolving that.

I would imagine you're going to have dumpster uh trucks coming in here. How does this how does whether it's dumpster trucks, maybe it's snow removal trucks, how does the site accommodate turnarounds, how how do you reverse this type of equipment?

Well, it's um it's designed um as you can see in the dumpster area in the the top right hand corner of the parking lot, it's designed by my engineer for for that uh trash truck to turn around.

So, they take that into consideration.

So, he drives in, dumps them out, and as you can see when he when he reverses, he reverses back into the parking lot and then out.

Okay.

Dan, you seem okay with that. The way that the the widths will accommodate that?

Yes.

Okay. Awesome. Thank you, Kevin.

Thank you.

Any other member?

I have a quick question. Madam Chair, go ahead, Kevin.

Uh I I'll put this out to uh to Mr.

Madira sore attorney Marky uh to answer.

You guys have been granted a uh a permit for 34% lot coverage in a zone 3 aquifer district and I wanted to uh to know if you are going to any extra lengths to contain the runoff that that uh extra granted imperous surface will create.

Evan, do you want to answer on the on the detention pond issue and anything else you've done with recapture? I do note I think one of the reasons that they gave this to us just Mr. Estes is that with all of the ledge that already exists out there, there was not a lot of uh there was a lot of naturally uh impervious areas on it that that were noted on the site. But but Kevin, if you

have an answer to that question, please let him know. Otherwise, I know we're going to be dealing with this with the concomment. I'm happy to give uh Mr.

Estie's an answer next time.

Yeah, if you want to hold off on your answer and and and follow it up the next meeting, I'm okay with that based on what your interaction with Common Con is.

Sure.

Well, excuse me. Or if you have some some thoughts on it now, that would be great, too. So, they applied credits because we captured all of the roof runoff into um into an infiltration system. So, we're taking all of the root the roof runoff and filtering it. And this infiltration system is partly in the parking lot into the rear of the parking lot. So, we're um re recapturing it and infiltrating it um into the the

soil on site.

Great.

Any other questions?

Okay, I have a couple of questions. Um, number one, the school bus will not go on the property. Um, they don't go on private property, so they will be um on route six picking up the children. So depending on how many children are in this, which is probably going to be very minimal, um the parent will probably be parking along the the driveway in or if you have a little like they said a rain station,

they would be there. Um my other question is is the curb cut is right across from your entrance and the state has approved that curb cut.

Can you repeat your first question?

The school bus won't go on private property. So, you're going to have the kids on route six being picked up like they are along Route Six.

Yeah. No, regarding the the curb cut was on on the What did you say? Sorry.

Is there a curb cut right across from your entrance?

Not that I'm aware of.

When they come out, they can go across the curb cut to No.

No.

So they if they leave the if they leave they'll have to turn to the right.

Correct.

They'll have to go west.

Correct. Correct.

Has that been has that been approved by this by um the statew?

That's the next step. You know we're looking for uh you know local uh approval and then we we'll send it over to Mass D.

Oh Kevin, you do know they take about six months.

Yep. Yep.

They they do take quite a while.

Yeah, that's right.

They may have done that.

Yeah, we would just That's a shame.

We would just that, you know, we send it over to Mass D for approval and then it needs to be revised at the local level.

Then we'd have to start all over again.

So, um you know, I guess we're taking this first step.

Okay. How how far away is that curb cut on Route Six that you can turn around and because I know from Cass and Pig, it's just up the road.

Yeah, it is. So, it's it's right in front of that. It's on the the southeast corner. There's a there's a home there and the crossing is right in that area.

Oh, okay.

So, you'd have to turn right coming out and then if you want to head east on Route Six, you'd have to do a U-turn at the lights.

Okay. Yeah.

Madam Chair, can I ask a question?

Sure.

Kevin and Attorney Mark, good evening again. Obviously, if we know that there's going to be a need for children at some point to get in and out of a school bus and it's reasonable that their parents will be with them and a vehicle will be required to hold them until then. On the outbound lane, uh is there I'm not aware of what the surface is. Um as we're looking at it actually heading heading northerly into your

property on the left hand side where the vehicles would be exiting, would it be wise to put maybe six to eight car lengths of um kind of like a holding area? you know, I want to call the cell lot, but just parallel to the driveway coming out where those those cars that might be holding children would be able to pull over to the right and not olude the flow of traffic in either way while they're waiting.

So, basically from I think you're talking about this area right here. I don't know if that shows up.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. SMH number two just just to the west of that from the 50 50 foot radius number down to VCC roughly whatever that length is plan for six to eight vehicles parallel to the drive maybe it you know it's marked in a way where it's a holding area I'm just wondering based on the widths emergency services taking it to the next level would it make sense to have room for non-moving traffic to sit

and wait and not olude excuse me the normal flow of traffic.

It's just an idea. It's just a question.

I'm not an engineer, clearly.

No, I I think it's an interesting idea.

And if you did, if you It may be something if you put gravel over there, it looks okay. And if you don't use it much, you would be able to I I would want to also review that with Dan and make sure that he thinks it's a good idea. Um, but I think it's it's a creative way to to do something that I don't know that six or eight families

would be there out of that number, but you know, at least three three or four might be might make sense.

Yeah, I would say three or four because it's astronomical. It just amazes me to to know when kids don't take the bus today.

I I mean seriously I I put my grandkids on on the school bus and it's like three quarters empty but the bus the town has to pay for that bus and that seat for any child that's available to go on that bus and we have buses that are half empty all the time.

It just it amazes me.

Kids can't take buses anymore.

I do like the idea though of of putting a pvious surface there to accommodate I wouldn't accommodate as that's for sure.

And Kevin and attorney Marky the reason I brought it up I I I don't know um of what consequence it was or wasn't. But I thought a while back during my time on the board there was a similar situation where at some point in the presentation that the issue came up where if there were vehicles stopped now the whiff is reduced and then there's the fire and here comes the emergency services and

then you could see how the snowball effect happens. So I'm only bringing it up because for some reason I feel we had a similar discussion long ago.

Well that's great. It's also just generally for the kids. The the wider space they have, it'll be easier for them to get out of a car and get safely to the to the bus.

Sure.

I mean, you don't have to make another whole lane. You just have to go a few feet in just to give, you know.

Yeah.

And my next question is Dan.

Does he have the exact amount of parking spaces or does he have extra because I this chart is a little small to read.

Yes, he has two spaces per unit. Um Mr.

Medeiros would like to speak on it. I've had discussions with him about parking requirements for his his other facility and what kind of ratio he's looking at there. Um so Mr. Medeiros, if you're comfortable with it, if you'd like to Yeah. No. give a little feedback on on the on what you see at your other facility.

Yeah. So, um we got a reduction on parking on on Cross Road. It was require we have 24 units. So, two units per unit was a total of 48. I requested a waiver of two units. So, we have 46 parking spaces at Crossroad. And um at all times uh there's always more than a dozen open spots there. So there's a ratio of probably 1.5 to 1.75 uh at that site. So but here we have uh

108 uh actual parking spaces and we have four garage stalls to make up the 112 which is uh the requirement.

And madam chair, those numbers, the 1.5 to 1.7, that's something we're seeing across the board for multif family residential situations, right?

So, is it too late to do away with some of this parking or do we want to keep Well, I think it's I think it's important like for what he's talking about, if you have, you know, people visiting, if you have people that are looking to to have additional parking, I I think there's a good factor of safety in there. That's why we require the two.

So, um there's many reasons not to want to shrink that number.

Well, would you want to, Mr. Mr. Maduros, um I would say the the 1.75 number I I think is is a safe number. Uh you know, I would like to um but I would just trying to streamline this and and meet all of the requirements, but if I'm allowed to absolutely you'd have to go for a special permit.

That's what we talked about.

So it would take it would take time through the permitting process.

Yeah.

It's just that I'm looking at this parking is as you drive into the facility, you hit a row of parking on two sides and then you go into the facility itself. I don't like that parking. I one row to me would be, you know, sufficient if we could cut it down but it's just, you know, someone's driving through and then you got two cars backing out.

I prefer to have one row of parking and he, you know, if we gave him a special, but I guess we it'd be too much of a problem now to do that. So, just leave it.

Well, it and I mean, you're if you're going to have to go through DOT, you've got to unless you you you know how to work some magic there, um you've got to await.

So, if if time isn't really an issue, then then uh you know, I would encourage you to uh if it's something that you want to do, then then you might want to uh to go down that path.

Now, I'll talk with I'll talk with my client about that option and whether or not we want to get this project approved without this and whether we would come in with a special permit afterwards. Um, if it was if it if he deemed it to be worthwhile and it was something that it's it's it's one of those crazy circumstances, right? You you set the rules for us and we meet the rules, but

you're saying this is a particular rule in this particular circus that made trying to change the rules. But uh but in any case, I I I I appreciate it. But I think I think that my inclination is probably because we have all these other hurdles, some of which won't look at us until we're as of right project. And I think we might want to pursue this for now and then reserve that, right? And

maybe you can see, you know, at Halloween or at Christmas with another visit.

We'll see.

Madam Chair, may I chime in on this?

Yes.

Uh so with all due respect uh to my fellow board members, I'd like to address this from a different perspective. It's it's my perspective.

It's probably unique to how I see the Route 6 corridor and some of the perpendicular thoroughares and what might be happening in the far south in the far north and everybody wants to preserve and nobody wants to build and here we are talking about mixed used high density increased density and residential units. The key word was mixed. I'm of the sentiment that the parking shouldn't be reduced because

Kevin's building an apartment complex today and in 14 years on the first floor there might be a subacute rehab facility and 20 some odd units above it with assisted living. I I I realize I'm being extremely random, but I'm of the position that on Route 6 andor adjacent to it, we should caution ourselves on reduced parking when in the same breath we're talking about converting and increasing the mixeduse abilities and

opportunities for current owners and trying to go vertical some. How would we do that later if we had reduced parking prior? So, I'm just throwing it out there. It's a long shot. It's not for today or tomorrow, but it is for later.

Thank you.

I don't know if I'd reduce it or just make it a green space like we do. Just they they're proving to us that they can build it if we need it.

Like equivalent like ghost parking you're talking about that you would be required to make us build it if if the need was proven.

But thank you for clarifying that. I kind of think you should leave it alone.

Leave it the way it is. Let's get the project going. It's going to go.

Sounds good.

He meets the requirements.

He's already done it. Let's leave it for parking. And I kind of agree with Nick.

You don't know 20 or 30 years what's going to happen 15 years. So, we have enough parking there. If that property turns into something else, you'd have to put in more parking.

Well, in in in all fairness to the proposal and attorney Marky, if we feel a certain way from this point forward, let's become vocal and identify what we feel so further plans come to us reflecting that. But at this point, with them meeting what they're meeting and understanding the standards that we're trying to set, I just I I don't see the real net benefit of doing something

today that might be adverse to tomorrow.

That's all.

Any other questions about this project?

Dan, you're going to recommend that he bring this back to the next meeting, correct?

Um, I think it's appropriate at this time just because we just received the two letters today. I don't I'm assuming based on attorney Maky's comments that these things that could be addressed, but I don't have any specifics. So, I would recommend that we look at um making the changes at that point if he's close. It's just do eyes and crossing tees at that point. I don't think it's

an issue to administratively approve at that point. Um but as of today, we really don't have a a firm grasp on on what those changes will be.

We have no problem with that and we'll take Dan's recommendation and Dan has expressed clearly that if we some of the little some of the issues that you've raised and that we're going to be modifying something has to be in by August 5th if we want to be on the August 10th meeting so that he has time to distribute it and review it. Um so we're aware of that. We do have a

meeting with Concom on August 4th which might add us a few thoughts. So we will do our best to try to meet that deadline.

Um, we don't need a motion for this. We just know that they're going to come back, put them on the agenda for um the next meeting, August, was it 10th?

10th. Yep.

Any other questions? Any other comments?

It's a good project. I hope it uh I know your your other project near Target is phenomenal. It's Thank you. Thanks.

Yeah, it's clean. There's never a traffic problem. Um the professor loves it.

Thank you.

And this would be a good place for you know my my daughter being a well she was a a uh student student at UMass Amoris she got her doctorates degree and I'm going to tell you there's no place to live. She had a hard time finding you know as a doctorate student very conscious of her neighbors and everything. She had to go into a um bed almost like a bed and breakfast to get a

place to live. You don't there's no campus support for graduate students.

There's none in Amherst.

No. No graduate students. No.

Oh, wow.

No.

And the ones that they have for the foreign students are $3,000 a month.

And the foreign student students pay it because the their countries are paying it.

And now as a professor up there again, you want to talk about the house cost of housing.

So this is a great project and hopefully you know it will be available for some of the rotating professors and graduate students.

Okay Kevin we will see you in two weeks.

Thank you very much. Thank you for your time.

Thank you.

Thank you, Kevin.

Thanks.

Next.

I'm working in the dark now. We have my lights are off.

Tell you what, do you have a timer?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. It's number four, page 120, right?

Uh oh, come on. Move.

No, I'm not number number three.

Dan.

Um, I don't have anything new at this time just because as we've talked about, we're we're moving target right now with with what the state's doing between the House bill and the Senate bill. There's talks from, you know, the yes in God's backyard that I've sent about housing on religious properties. There's the duplex zoning that would allow by rate two units per per every every property. Um

there's other stipulations for adaptive reuse. So for us to look at anything at this time, um it could change, you know, in two weeks, a month, um it's kind of hard to to come up with any real plan with what the state um is giving us to work with at this time. So, um, that's just a long way of saying I don't have anything new for them in the future zone.

And you're optimistic that they're going to pass this.

I wouldn't say optimistic is the word I want to use.

I'm notic about it, but I do believe there's going to be some way way that this is going to get passed. I don't know it if we if it'll be all of the above. It'll be one of the above, two of the above. Um, I know they're looking to try to get it done before the session's done. Um, they're working to go into small committees to reconcile the two bills. And all I can

really tell you at this point is I will keep monitoring it and get you as much information as as I can.

I mean, I'm hoping it goes the same route the zoning articles have gone over the last 30 years and it just never gets gets anywhere. question.

Um, you know, uh, may I may I just say this, um, Madame Chair, that there are two states that have already, um, said goodbye to single family zoning, okay? In parts of their state. Uh, I I believe that that we may be getting something like that next. Okay. More single family zoning. Okay.

I mean, this is just the beginning. I think it just doesn't exist in their in their bylaws.

No more. They took it out. No single family zone California, parts of California, and I think some parts of Oregon.

And you know, um I'm of the opinion that if you want to do these kind of ballot questions, uh they spring it on you. The the public doesn't is not aware of this. I think it's the planning board in Dartmouth's obligation to talk about this and to do some things, even maybe have a special meeting somewhere because I do not believe the people are aware of this and duplex lots. Um,

it just going to change all the all the little towns in the in the state of Massachusetts. you know, you know, I I just feel really bad about it and I'm sorry that it's it's coming before us. A lot of people are not going to understand it and they're going to vote yes. And you already heard Tim, how are we going to how are we going to keep our water and our sewer if they're able to

do this? What's going to happen to the people that, you know, already are in these subdivisions, already have a stake in real estate in this town? what's going to happen. How much more is the water going to go up? How much more the sewer going to cost?

And that's some of the things that we have to think about.

I mean, in my opinion, it goes beyond that. I mean, just who are we, right?

Uh, you know, yes, our our zoning is is is larger than 5,000 square feet. Um, but that's that's what makes us part of that is what makes us who we are.

And it should be the town of Dartmouth's decision. It shouldn't be people up in Boston, some of them who don't even know where we are, never been down here, know nothing about these small towns and cities.

They should not be making a decision for the people that live in the town. I'm I'm 100% against. So there's the the bill decision, but then there's also the the referendum, which you know, two two issues. But I I agree with you, Margaret. We we we absolutely I mean the ballot is the question is on the ballot now, right?

We need to we need to start a campaign either Yes. as a planning board or as a a a town uh administration to educate people and and we need people I'm personally I I think Dartmouth should uh should should enlist Serpent to take a stand on this and and get as many organizations to do as much outreach about what's coming down. Um, and just in case anybody's watching this that is wondering what we're talking about,

uh, this there is a ballot question that will be on on the November ballot ballot question number seven that would reduce our zoning in every town, every state to 5,000 square feet and 50 ft of frontage by right. uh which means you don't have to go through any approvals to get a subdivision uh of an existing property or parcel down to that that level and uh as long as that that parcel is supported

by town water and town sewer.

Yeah, I think we can do a couple of things. I think we need to get on um our local TV and you know how they interview various people in the town and talk about it so we can get it out that way.

Maybe we should set up set up a meeting with the board of selectmen there.

That's more people we can reach because people watch the board of selectmen and talk to the board of selectman about it.

Um I see somebody from Dartmouth week on here right now.

Yeah, doc. Yeah, we can get please put an article about this. Um, so those those are three ways of getting out to more people. Um, I don't know if the town wants to do more. I mean, there's more we can do. I just don't know if um people want to people are willing to do a mailing.

Um, I don't know. There's there's a lot that can be done. It's just a question of where, how, and why.

But I think we have three three ways of getting it out to the to the um public on a free basis. DCTV will be holding they hold little um half hour or 20 minute or 15 minute little shows with different people like Tim Bob has been on and talking about things. We can Dan can be on and talking about this. go before the board of selectment and talk about it and our little newspaper

can um come in and interview.

It's every town in every every Yes.

city in every city in the state.

So that's why I I I think that uh it would be helpful to organize at uh not only at the grassroots level but also at the highest level possible.

Madam Chair, can I ask a question?

Yes.

It's actually it's a question. It's Yeah, it's convoluted, but the first thing is why don't we learn who's behind the little boards that get stapled at tele telephone polls that say no more building Dartmouth.

Make sure they understand what's about to come down the pipe so they can take some of their efforts and energies and direct it towards this subject matter in disseminating the information. I'm being sarcastic, but we have people that believe we have ill intents to developing this town versus employee controls and the things we worry about and we share with on this board when we meet uh with a good conscience. We need

those people to understand that this is knocking on their front door too and all of a sudden realize that we're teammates in this. That'll be helpful. And then the other question, the other thing that's a legitimate question, not a rant, is I know we have Dartmouth helping Dartmouth on Facebook, is it legal uh for the town, and I I have not spoken to anybody about this.

I'm just right now putting my thoughts together. Could there be like a a particular Facebook page for the town that is specific and only to be used by certain bodies of the town via an approval process to post certain things?

Because we're all collectively friends here, probably with five or 10 or 12,000 people through the loop of Facebook and a push of a button. If there was a governing body that could approve that this information was going to go on our public service announcement page overnight in the next 24 hours, the majority of who we want to see this will have it on their phone. So I'm just curious from a legal standpoint if it

doesn't exist could it? And if it could, who actually manages it and becomes the governing body whereby we and any other board would submit statements and or requests to be posted. so that the majority can hear about it in the push of a button.

I know that the Madam Chair, can I can I answer that?

Go ahead.

Yeah.

So, I've been in I've been in communications with we have a communications manager here in town. Um I've been in talks with her about how best ways to get this across. There is a town of Darmmouth Facebook page. Um I can find out what the procedure is for putting anything on there for information. Um, so that's something we can talk about over the next meeting or so. I can find out. You tell me what

you're thinking and I can get the answers for you. I've already spoken to about setting up a video on um, yeah, DCTV and what the process would be for that. Um, so if you guys have thoughts on it, I can pass that along um, to her and I can get that information for before the next meeting.

Yeah. No, I think that's I mean that's that's amazing that that you're at that point and that we have that capacity. If if we were able to put it together and the page was one that we all of a sudden reach out to our friends with a with a very I mean uh scripted post all of us it's the same thing. Dear friends and neighbors on behalf of all of us at the

planning board in the town of Dartmouth please like and follow our page below.

and then they like and follow the page which means anything we post they will see and then through some governance and oversight we collectively vote and or submit to the communications manager and it goes out upon approval I mean it's almost I I say this cautiously to a high degree of certainty we will reach more people in a fraction of a second than any of the other efforts and virtually at no cost and it can be

an ongoing method of communication as far as disseminating this stuff so that they are aware especially no pun intended above down information state to us that's rather oppressive in comparison to what we're trying to do wouldn't that I know the police department put puts out information on um Darmouth helping Darmouth um talk to Shawn McDonald too he um puts out a lot of information. He puts out um

you know the food drives and the farmers market and he has a lot of information that gets put out. So he would know how to do that too.

What else?

I I don't want to drop I'm sorry. I'm sorry. One second. I don't want to drop the You say talk to Sean McDonald. Are you talking to Dan or me?

I believe everything will have to go through the communications manager. So that'll be my first group to to pursue this.

But ultimately, you're the one that's going to pursue these questions, correct?

Yes.

Thank you. Okay. Sorry, Helio.

Helio, my only my my comment was going to be, you know, any election information is done through the town clerk, I believe, right? Which would have access to the general town of Dartmouth website. So, if if if there's a way I'm throwing this dumping this um brain dump on on on uh on you, Dan, I guess through the town clerk's office because it's a it's a ballot initiative through the town, you

know, elections go through the town clerk if there is um information that can be disseminated through the clerk's office via the town of Dartmouth website or Facebook page.

Okay. I have a question.

We will be receiving from the state the pros and um the pros and the cons about each question, right?

Fill that out for every election when there's a a referendum.

Who who does the pros and who does the cons?

Uh well, I can tell you who's going to do the pro on this one.

Yeah, the real estate agents and the developers.

Well done. The guy's name is Andrew Mula.

He he's he's it it's his email, his name, and I forgot he's the he's the first name that signed on the on page 120 of your packet.

Uh he he's the organizer of this and it's a it's what's the name of the group again, Dan? It's there's something for housing or I don't have it off the top of my head.

So, who's going to write the gone?

I don't know. I I have no idea how that that that's determined.

Well, that would be a Secretary of State question.

Yeah.

malware.

Well, I I just think it's not going to be any uh any um mass board of realtors that's going to write it.

No con Oh, no, no, no. It won't be them.

I I mean, just so you guys know, I I I know that I' I've beaten the drum to to each of you and we've talked about it, but for people that are watching, this organization is very well financed by a number of groups, including the Mass Realtors Association and a number of high-end large developers in the state.

So there are a lot there's a lot of economic gain to at our expense that that this question would lead to.

And I'm not I don't necessarily believe that these small lots are going to produce affordable housing, more affordable housing. I I don't believe that.

Um I I agree with you. They're going to be very expensive small lots.

Right.

So, you know, I think people uh think, "Oh, what a great idea." And in all, in all truth and honesty, it isn't a great idea. It's uh it's something that's going to change.

It won't work here, right? And it's going to change the face of all the towns uh Krishna, Fair Haven, Whim, Metapo, people choose to live uh where they want to live. Uh, and once you invest, and I'm and I'm a real estate agent, once you invest money in a property that you worked hard for, you should be able to count on living in that property as you purchased it. In

other words, if you bought in uh the a new subdivision on Tucker Road that has 20,000 square foot lots and that's what you want. you paid good money, you want to live in a and that you don't want that to be a further subdivided. I think that that's only fair. I don't think that's anything wrong. I think it's only fair. You know, everybody has a right to pick and choose, but nobody has a right

to come and tell you what you got to do with your property. It's almost eminent domain taking. Okay? It really, really is. I don't think the state has the right to do that.

It it's deciding what our zoning is and and largely to to take it one step further, they're planning for us and and I know we we started talking about this earlier. Um I it's it's just another step towards us and our the the frustration we've already felt with the planning process that we we don't know what to do with our our future plans in making Dartmouth a better place because there are that it

now it's it's it's uh a popular thing for our zone zoning and bylaws to be decided by a higher entity.

When we were discussing putting residential uh on along Route Six maybe with some of those uh commercial properties, I felt that that was really a good thing because we're not, you know, we're we have the infrastructure uh right now. That would have been probably a really good thing to do. And now, uh, I feel that the planning board, we're on hold. I mean, why should we Yeah.

Why should we do any of this when, you know, they're going to step down and say, "This is what you're going to do.

This is your, you know, this I I just can't believe it. I'll be honest with you. I just cannot believe that duplex lots, 5,000 square foot lots, and eventually trying to get rid of single family lots. I I don't It's like a night. It really is a nightmare.

Madam Chair, can I share something?

Yes.

If if the state has the capacity and the ability to be on such offensive as they choose, going back about an hour and 30 minutes and with all due respect to the residents of the town and projects that are before us, would it be wise that Dartmouth Dartmouth is at capacity before the ballot, before the vote?

I mean at some point we have to collaborate amongst all of us that have the ability to share these thoughts within the hall third floor second floor basement and various teams and perhaps I say I I say this with no legal capacity but build the defense against what we know as an offense that's aimed at us and would such first of all based on Tim's story tonight it doesn't seem like we're far

And I'm really curious with the betterments that have been paid. I really wish we knew how many of them or what effect they would have on capacity if they tied in.

And then and then what is the cost to tie in? And then what is the consequence of the town being included in this new zoning in comparison to the town expending monies perhaps to facilitate and finance perhaps the tie-ins further so that they happen so that we get to capacity before the state has the upper hand and would I'm saying it it's public I get it would that work with our collaborative

defensive plan work to defend ourselves against what might be. And I'm not embarrassed to do that because that's part of the thinking process here.

That's the whole point.

Well, let let me ask another question that's kind of related to this. If you have the option to tie into sewer, but there's a moratorum going on because where the town is at or over capacity, what's to stop you from putting in your own septic tank?

Well, that's what Li said. Li suggested that talking about the board of the board of health if there's sewer available wouldn't let you tie would put a septic system.

But if it's Yeah.

I don't think we're near that point yet.

But but you know, everyone's talking about sewer and we have a problem. There are towns uh Dyon for one has a moratorium on water connections. So we're just talking about sewer but water is a big issue in this town too.

And I mean um septic doesn't solve that.

No. And we don't we can't use water for a moratorum because we have the ability to buy water from New Beford. Um Right.

We haven't been told that.

What? Right. We can't do a moratorium on it. And I I understand that. But the point I'm trying to make is it's not just sewer. It's also water.

Okay.

We'll have more sprinkler systems going.

I don't know. It's just um I would like somehow maybe Dan when you talk to the uh communications person, find out if there's a way we can send a postcard to the voters in this town. And I realize it's just one town, but if we initiate it, maybe we can talk to other other planners in other towns and see if they can initiate it and get a standard postcard sent to people. Don't vote for

this. I I don't know.

Well, I mean, any kind of outreach I I I think is is good outreach, education and and opinion. Um, but I this is this is a battle that's going to be fought at a number of different le levels between now and November.

And I don't I think there's going to be other towns that feel the same way as D.

The last serpent meeting that I was on, most towns didn't know about this. Ah, how did the how did the just say cities for for ease of using terms feel about it?

The well the people that were on the serpent call really kind of it sounded like there there were a couple people that knew what I was talking about and uh most seemed like they did not.

Uh and the reaction was please send us everything you have. We will get it out to everybody.

So even even in the even in the higher populous town cities and towns in Serb region, I'm just talking about Serpent.

Nobody nobody that was on that call other than the the guy from Carver knew about it and the guy from Jim Whitten from um Westport.

uh he was aware of it. Other than that, even the staff at it was my un my impression nobody from the staff of Serpentid piped up and said, "Oh yeah, we're following that." Not not I'm not knocking them. Uh but the their reaction was please send us what you have. This is really, you know, vital information.

I'm just going to be curious to see, you know, outside of the more suburban rural areas down here once you get out west, how that's going to relate versus the opinions of the inside 495 corridor.

What kind of is it going to be an uphill battle for us more rural suburban towns or, you know, what's how how this is going to break down in in the vote? Well, I I think uh my opinion is we're going against probably the most dense uh percentage of voter Yes.

that exists in the state inside the 128 belt.

Uh and the highest volume and I'm guessing and I'm I'm really just guessing probably the highest percentage.

So, it's going to be an uphill battle.

And these are people that probably already live under the same conditions that this referendum references.

Great. I I think I think you're getting people from what I saw um when this group presented in front of the house, which it didn't it didn't pass that first stage as as a potential house build, but they were talking more areas where, you know, the average size was 10,000 square feet as a buildable lot. So 10,000 to 5,000 isn't as dramatic as we're talking 80,000 or 40,000 to 5,000. So, that's

one of my big concerns on on how this is going to play out.

And that's the drum that's being beat that you've got decisions being made that don't take local flavors and preferences in history and culture.

No, I just I want to chime in one more time and and repeat to some degree in summary of what I was trying to express. We have two defenses. is I think one one is a true defense. It's educating the public and trying to create voter turnout in the right direction. I think it's going to have minimal to no impact on the outcome because of the numbers that Kevin was referencing. And then I I hate

to say it based on the gravity of the outcome and what it means to our landscape.

I really really think we need to collaborate within the hall and ask ourselves if we can put Dartmouth in a position to be able to say no to what the state might create for whatever reason we come up with. And I understand we're not at capacity today.

If we were perhaps it was our it would be our defense mechanism. So if we ever have the ability to collaborate with another board or two or a special meeting, I'd be eager to be there myself.

We could succeed.

Don't give me any more ideas, Kevin. The wheels are spinning.

I want I want to wind you up and see where you go.

Just going to run the ice cream stand at the bucket. I'll just be like chocolate or vanilla.

Well, maybe maybe we could just uh have a little revolution and say we're not going to do it. If if it's voted in, we're not doing it. And what are they gonna do to us?

Oh, that's what the MBTA community's tried to do and they're basically not getting funded. So that's what they It's by right.

I mean, this is this is not something that we're going to be able to even vote on.

It's by right.

I know, right?

No. And then it's it's it talks about the Executive Office of Housing and Livable Communities issuing guidelines or regulations to administer this these things. So now it becomes right now if somebody tried coming in with a 5,000 square foot lot on in our single residence B, you got a 60 foot front yard set back, 20 side rear. How you going to fit that with those setbacks? But then we got then we get to

the point we're going to wait for EOHLC to draft their regulations on what's reasonable restrictions and deal with the attorney general. This is what they've tried with the ADU regulations.

This is what they've done with the MBTA communities. And this this is the next step. Housing housing housing. That's what that's the the term in the state house.

Whatever that number was I gave you about a year ago. 220 something 200 units they wanted the next 10 years, right?

This is their this is their big push.

They want what they determined was the way to go. They're not going to get reduction in cost for materials. are not going to get reductions in cost for labor.

Their determination is the only way you can reduce costs is land prices. And the only way you can reduce cost of land prices, more units on the same piece of land. That's how they're attacking us.

That makes you wish we never put a sewer in.

There's valer. Can I say one last thing?

Of course.

The attorney general bought a home in our community.

Oh, yeah. $3 million.

No, not even close.

No, she doesn't. She didn't pay three million.

No, no, no.

I know where she lives. She didn't pay.

If she did, Margaret's going to sell my house tomorrow and I'll see you later.

But my point is this. I'm near certain that she would not want to that particular development to double in home count because everybody could turn into a duplex or or triple in home count because almost every lot has room I shouldn't say that a lot of lots have room for another home etc etc what at at what point Can we or our representation have facetime with her with all due

respect? In other words, can we can we get to her? Where do we fight this fight above and beyond those who are proposing it? And and that that is a government question I have because I honestly have no clue. It's a legitimate question.

Where do we fight the fight above the proposers?

Well, I think I think you got to change who is making these decisions. You have to change the people that are voting for this. You have to change the powers that be and not keep voting for the same people because that's what you have to do. Whether it's a Democrat or Republican, I don't care.

Let's just change the people.

Sure.

a as as a a a larger topic. I I I agree with that. Unfortunately, this is a very tactical thing that is is a it's going to be fought on the ballot.

It's it's not it's not really politics.

We we need to fight this at at the voter level and and that's our only hope. So, Madam Chair, one last time, I promise.

Okay.

If that's the case, do we try and expend time and money in reaching our votership the conventional ways that we discussed so far?

Or do we need a member of our board to get for instance, with all due respect, our chair reaches out to the chair of Somerset, to the chair of Ausha, etc., etc., And do we try and get 15 or 20 chairs together and put a budget together where let's just say Southeastern Massachusetts and Cape Cod have now built a budget to go on local TVs throughout the region and make these

announcements in real time. So, do we try and put together a larger and collaborative budget which is ultimately not only going to get more exposure through the medium that we're using TV, but simply by doing that now you're going to start pooling numbers together anyways. Is that is that too much to ask for? Is it unlikely?

Is that something Kevin you were talking about about trying to get Serpent involved? We have I'm I'm I mean I can't represent a a town decision necessarily, but I'm going to at least talk to Serpentid as the Dartmouth representative to Serpentid about whether or not they are going to take a position on this and if so, what would the position be and how are they going to promote it? uh and um you know

cuz I I will make it very clear what my opinion is. I already have.

When's the next serpent meeting?

Well, we just had one last week. So, once a month.

Once a month or so. But I've got a a return phone call voicemail that came in the end of today that I need to return tomorrow morning.

I think as a whole, excuse me, as a whole of this planning board definitely is against it.

So, I would I think we would be hardressed to find anybody in our town that would be for it. But who knows?

We need the entire hall to be against it though.

Yes, that's right.

Yeah. I I I I've already started talking and and putting uh I I have links to all of the information where the money came from, who they are, what the the verbiage is. I sent it to Dan, and I I think we should start sending that out to uh every everybody inside the hall now that we know that it's on.

If we think for is a a hot button topic, wait until more people understand that 5,000 square foot loss can happen all over Dartmouth. Good lord.

Right. Well, well, only if there sewer and water. So, that's that's a big caveat. One thing we need to look at is how much, you know, that'll affect the town.

Well, Dan Dan, that's one thing we're working on trying to figure out, too.

Yeah. H how many lots could be, right? what's the effect?

Whereas the duplexes, those as of right now, the way it's written could be septics.

So you're talking about 80,000 square foot lot. You could have two threebedroom units and as far as we know right now, they're still afforded an ADU. So you could have two three-bedroom units in a two-bedroom ADU and you're in compliance on an 80,000 foot lot with nitrogen loading requirements. So it's there's two there's two things that we need to keep an eye on. And Dan, correct me if I'm wrong. I think one of the

things that you and I talked about this week was the fact that they're even referencing the duplex units as detached.

Yes. Which I don't understand how that can be the definition of a duplex, but right now it says detached, semi attached, and attached.

Two two houses, two separate houses on one part.

Again, I don't know if I don't I'm looked again today. There's nothing new today, but we got to keep an eye on when the final final documents are signed and delivered. But as of the the draft, that's how they define duplexes for the point of of this section of potential regulatory changes.

Do they if you have a duplex, can you get two ADUs in there?

No. ADU is one per lot. So if you had a if you had a fourunit rental, you still only afforded one.

One one ADU.

Okay. But as far as the maybe they mean the duplexes do not have to be attached to the main house. Do you think they could mean that?

It said for the purpose I don't I don't know if I can poke try to pull it up but that's that's the way they described it.

It's all right.

It's it's not a duplex anymore.

No.

Yeah. No, it's not. It's a tenement.

Well, it's not a tenement, but it's What does this do to our OSRDs, Dan?

I I don't know why people would want to do an OSRD, but maybe maybe they maybe there there still would be a want for them, but the benefit of an OSRD, it's a special permit, so we can condition them. So that's one thing.

But again, that might be a reason why somebody wouldn't want to go a special permit OSRD route because there are stipulations that can be done.

It's got to take some, you know, creative writing, I think, and I've been in contact with town council as these things have been coming up and I will continue to do so and we will continue to monitor it.

I think Brian's pretty busy these days.

M so this is in November.

Yeah.

So we have some homework to do between now and then.

Well on on a positive side. Look what our board of health Chris Mishad did with the septic tanks that they tried to do backward.

He is the one who who made it possible that Dartmouth did not do it. Chris alone started it and then it was carried forward. But Chris Mishad did it. So if Chris did it, maybe we can do it, too.

And he did it alone. He didn't. Yeah, that's right. He did it.

All on his back.

That's right.

Well, I just I I just had this quick thought and unless I'm told by our chair or Dan that I can't, I might put together a nice easy to read slide, just one picture and just post it, start sharing it and get the word out and ask and ask people to share.

We are individuals as well as planning me board members.

So individuals as well as planning board members.

So So ma madam chair I just hope so. Sorry I just I found the I found the verbiage if you want me to read it to you.

Go ahead.

So for for the purposes of this paragraph duplexes shall mean two dwelling units on the same parcel or lot in attached detached or semi- detached arrangement that are designed for residential occupancy.

That's how they define it.

Well, we really don't you that really you're right, Dan. You really can't say that. You have you don't know.

I'm taking it as detached from the house, the original house. But who knows?

No, these these are two residences, new residences, right?

So, there's not an existing one that's new, right?

They also have in there that a duplex cannot be limited in height to less than three stories.

Wait, what? Say that was an oxymoron, wasn't it?

The regulations concerning the height of a duplex do not limit height to less than three stories.

So, it has to be three stories.

this kid. We can't limit it. We can't say it right to limit it to two stories.

That would that wouldn't if this goes through that wouldn't pass muster with the attorney general if we tried to write a bylaw that said maximum two stories.

So, we're going to have a bunch of New York town houses.

Well, the the one thing we missed in the past hour and it wasn't available to us and I understand it would be difficult to push a button and get it. What is the impact of this? Is it 177 5,000 square foot lots that may be born or is it 3,120?

I mean, I'm being facitious, but it would be good to really know. Not that it would change our defense because it's just not right for the state to behave this way and impose this upon towns simply because they're the state and we're not. But understanding the impact would be prudent for what we say and how we act. Even if we maintain the same exact position with the same sentiment

slash attitude towards the state, it would be wise to know what the potential impact is.

Well, then we run then we run into what is the definition of sewer available? Does that mean it's physically in front of the frontage right now or does that mean it's down the street and you can expand it to put it in front of the property?

So there there's well I'm kind of looking at as two ways. Lots that have sewer in front of them now that could be subdivided with those 5,000 foot lots. And where is the potential for expansion for sewer?

Well, the duplex issue is a bill.

That's a to right. That's a bill. So, that's something that's a bill. So, if you want to talk about the duplex issue, call your representative, your your your representative and your senator.

Yep.

And say if if if this goes through, I'm not voting for you.

Okay.

is and then the bill question that we need to get the get the info out.

Yeah.

Okay. Dan, can we go back to David's future zoning? Um we know that we're not going to be be able to put some of this stuff on at town meeting because we don't know where the state's going.

Yep.

What about the um definition table? Were you going to be ready for that for the for the uh We're we are working on it. We're in a tight time frame. We basically have to have something for the next meeting.

Ross and I are doing our best. There's a lot of other people that need to get involved. So, it's we're going to try until we can't. I'll I'll say it like that.

Okay. I know you had talked about it.

You said you were working on it. Okay.

Yep. So, more than likely we will not have anything at the um June town meeting um the October town meeting unless we can get this table in. I think that's the best shot.

Okay. Okay.

Any other discussion on this pitiful subject? I don't know what else to call it.

Okay. And then let's go to there's no minutes of the meeting. So I need a motion to approve and file correspondence from the town of Freetown and the town of Westport.

Motion moved.

Second.

Just had Excuse me, Madam Chair. Just had a clarification. We're just acknowledging and filing that nothing.

Sorry that okay. I don't know what I said. Time is it getting is late for us.

We have gone past our normal time. Okay, I'm just going to go down my list of people. Kevin, yes.

Margaret, yes.

Nick, yes.

Helio, yes.

Laurianne, yes. Motion carries. Um, okay. Incoming zoning board of applications. Anything?

Um, so in your packet, you have an application for um ZAB 267.

This is for Hold on. I opened up so many tabs talking about those amendments.

Um this is an application for a townhouse um type development on um Crossroad. It's nine units. Um they are seeking relief um from the zoning board of appeals for an allowed use in the general business district. also looking for relief from um parking facility setbacks to property lines and from buildings. Also curb cut driveway entrance to property lines and setback to property lines

um from the street right ofway. Those plans are in your packet. Any questions or anything you would like me to ask of the zoning board, please let me know.

Anybody have any questions or comments?

Maybe we should just let the zoning board do our work from now on. Well, one thing one one thing we haven't talked about is the state also in the budget bill enacted that's effective already changes to the way the CBA reviews variances and applications.

Yep. It's only boards. For one example, I don't want to we can go into this at a later date, but just just for one example, the town's always had a provision that use variances are not allowed in a single residence district, meaning single residents A, B, or C.

That no longer applies.

Um there are other there are other things in there with the with the stipulations of what you have to review when considering a variance um don't apply. So we're getting it from that end as well.

All with the interest of supporting housing production.

So basic bas basically the burden becomes does the board feel that the interest in supporting housing production is greater than the detriment to the neighborhood's health, safety and welfare. That's that's a deciding factor when it comes down to housing.

Yeah.

Longer time for variance to be enacted.

There's a few other things if if the board would like to to dig into that a little more. We can have that for an item at a future at a future date. But again, just something else that's the town homes.

Yes, I don't mind homes, but they can't flood it with them.

Board of appeals decisions.

Um, in there is a denial for Barono Court. Um and also the comprehensive permit for the Hawthorne 40B.

So those are just FYI for the board members.

Subcommittee reports, planners report.

I think we've covered pretty much everything we had to discuss in the in our items for discussion. Um, and that would be also in regards to the master plan implementation and the department updates. We talked about what we were looking at going forward for um potential bylaw changes, but most of them were on hold waiting for further information from the state.

Dan, I've asked you this before. How comfortable are you that this this is going to the um bills are going to pass?

I think in some way, shape, or form they're going to. I just don't know which way they're going to go. I don't know if it's going to be the yes in God's backyard view. I don't know if it's going to be the adaptive use. I don't know if it's going to be the duplexes based on articles in newspapers. If you want to use that that as a measuring stick, it seems like

duplexes have the most articles. So, that one seems to have the most legs.

But again, I won't bills in the House now, right?

Yes.

It's it's it's in committee to reconcile the two bills.

So, it's it still has to be voted.

Yes.

Well, reach out to your rep.

I mean, because the only reason I say that is over the last 40 years, there have been some very good, and I mean good, zoning, articles brought before the state, and they've all been turned down.

So I'm just wondering this the these have gone through multiple iterations and are still there.

Yeah, that's the problem, right?

That's why we need a change. We need to change the people that are doing this and it doesn't matter. You got to give you need to change people. That's it.

And the only way you're going to do that is to get out the boat. I was talking to someone the other day who said to me that Dartmouth years ago Dartmouth 60% of the town used to vote years ago.

Oh yes, absolutely.

Now we're lucky if we get 12%.

So that's one thing that we have to try and change. 60 to 12 only 12% vote in the I don't care what election.

Pathetic.

It is pathetic. And so we got to try to change that. And as I said, doesn't matter if you're an independent, a Republican or a Democrat. You've got to vote. That's what this country is about.

The right to vote to pick the people you want. You know, we are not slaves to the state.

We are.

I I'd sign that.

Yeah. I mean, I'm sorry.

I don't like the state. I mean, what's the state going to do next? Come in and tell me what color drapes I got to put in my windows? I mean, really, it's got to stop. We've got to stop it.

Okay, enough. Margaret, Dan, is it possible for you to to reach out to just a couple of um planners in other towns to see what they know or don't know about this? I'm on I'm on I'm on different groups that different planners do. I am also part of a roundt group of um South Coast planners. We are scheduled to meet in September. So, I'm sure these things are

all going to be at the top of the list of items to discuss. Um do you have group?

I think the group the game plan the last meeting was to actually meet here in town. So, um, we just needed to get through the summer. It was tough to to get people together, um, during summer months, but we are scheduled to meet in September.

I just find it interesting that Ser wasn't on this more and neither were some of the representatives.

I mean, that leads me to believe worried. Nobody was.

I mean, just disappoint.

If you're not if you're not reading potential Senate bills and House bills, not finding out about this.

I mean, it is a bill, but it's it's it's it's stuck, but it's a referendum, right? But the Well, I I'll just speak for myself. The reason I knew about the referendum is through the bill and then seeing that they was also doing it as a as a ballot question.

Madam Chair, can I ask a question?

Yes. May I may I read something short to you folks and ask if if you folks are in favor of it being a message per per social media on our own valition.

Dear friends, family and Dartmouth residents, the following information is critical as it relates to our current zoning laws and landscape as we know it.

Valot question would allow single family home construction on 5,000 square feet by right. That's in parenthesis in quotations and in parenthesism masslands.net. that without any local controls in place, all governed by by the state, our landscape would forever change in ways we have historically fought to protect. Please vote no.

You have to just add one thing. Water and sewer.

You have to make sure that you put water and sewer.

Where?

On 5,000 square foot lots, you have to have water and sewer.

Served by water and sewer.

Okay, that's the only thing. Other than that, that's fine.

Ironically, the the masslandlords.net headline in bold does not say that because those those people are basically in cities. That's why.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's why they don't.

Got it.

I I Does everybody approve this? Because I think our our local um reporter is listening. We could uh maybe she can start.

Well, I'm happy with it. She has the content already.

Yeah, I think that's well an article for her to write that she can follow up with over a new I can email I can gladly email it to somebody just the way it is. I mean I'm going to start to spread the word. I've started verbally uh telling who I think should know because they have certain capacities as it relates to transactions of land and use and so on and few people

that I spoke to were completely unaware of it. Somebody else who I spoke to who was absolutely aware of it and it's in his best interest to make believe he knew nothing of it tried to go down that road. And that's what we're going to get from certain people who feel like they may benefit from it. And that's when we have to show up and say, "Don't call me stupid to my face. No,

that's a that's a planning board polite way of doing it at 9:25 p.m. But we are going to have to call people out because there are people that are going to know and they're going to realize that they need to act that way because they're not with the majority as it relates to defending ourselves against this.

Yeah.

It comes down it comes down to money.

This this is this is just something you're putting out on your own, correct? Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, I don't want I don't want to wait till October 20th.

This group claims that they have over $4 million.

Yeah, they spent $1.3 million just to get the ballot, the question on the ballot.

We're going to get inundated with with mail and commercials.

You're going to see advertising on TV for this.

Yeah, you are. But this you are a lot of people going to make a lot of money if this goes through the mighty I don't mind people making money but I don't want them to ruin our town. Well, this is it. Everybody, you know, I'm listen I I feel that developers, you know, they take a risk that so they should take they should make money. And I'm all for people take, you know, like

developers who take risks making money, but you don't want to decimate the small towns in Massachusetts. You just don't.

I mean, because that changes, as Kevin said, cultural, that changes everything.

That changes the way you get up in the morning and go out in your deck and have a cup of coffee. Oh, really? I'm I'm serious. You know, it it just changes everything. It's just not fair. That's it. It's not fair. We should have more of a word in what happens in our community. We shouldn't let the state dictate to us.

Agreed.

Anything else to come before us this evening?

I don't hear anything. So, I need a motion to adjourn. And our next meeting is I wrote this down somewhere. August 10th 2026.

Motion made to adjourn.

Second.

Kevin.

Second.

Yeah. Okay. Oh, I have a motion on the the floor made by Margaret and seconded by Kevin. I'm just going down my little list. I'm not Kevin.

Yes.

Margaret, yes.

Nick, yes.

Helio, yes.

And Lori, good night. Good night, everybody.